I hope to begin lessons soon, as will my son (he's in 1st grade.)

I'm shopping for a piano and found the following two that are in great shape for approx. the same price:
1. Steinway 1098 vertical (built after Steinway improved the tuning ease and stability in 2004)
2. Boston GP-156 baby grand (5'1"), 2002 model

Irrespective of the 'investment value', future depreciation, etc.: As a teacher, could you share the preference you'd have for your student to practice on, and why?

Thanks!

I'll vote for the 1098 because that's what I own and love.
But really, this is a personal decision for you and your family to make. Do you have room for a baby grand in your home? Has a technician checked out both pianos for you and given you his opinion? Which one do you like better yourself?
If I were buying a piano I would take my tech with me. Just my opinion. Whichever one you choose, enjoy!

I prefer the Boston grand - but if I were to recommend one it would be bigger, at least 5'6". Some of them have a pretty nice tone. Some of the Steinway uprights (like Barb's!) are nice, but I've also played some that are unimpressive.

I never liked the Steinway verticals. Mason & Hamlin have a much better (IMO) vertical at a lower price, I would even prefer Yamaha over Steinway verticals.

I've played a few Bostons that I've liked.

A agree that a slightly larger one would be better, and a grand is better for teaching.
You may want to post in the Piano forum to get ideas of other models/prices.

My students who practice on grands always seem to out perform those working on uprights. This may not be solely attributed to the instrument, as the parents in question may be more dedicated to the musical arts, thus the student is in a more fostering environment. However, when my students switch from upright to grand, their progress seems to accelerate. It is for certain, when all other things are equal, the actions on grands are more even than on uprights (gravity vs springs).

As a musician, I find I can always play better on a well maintained grand than upright. This is due to the less complex, more responsive action of the grand.

Good luck with your final choice.

John

So we're back to personal taste. I love Steinway verticals, not all of them may be good, perhaps, but it's up to the individual.
Just because "it's a grand" doesn't mean it's a better instrument than an upright. I have played a couple of Boston grands (small ones) and didn't care for either one. I don't mean to be argumentative here, just sayin' that it's not accurate to say a Boston grand is better than a Steinway upright. It's too general of a statement. Can we agree that taking a good technician along with you when evaluating a piano is a good idea?

Barb, the biggest problem with questions like the OP asked is that there is no way we can answer. None of us are going to travel to the OP's location and try out each instrument. And even if we did, it would just be opinion.

We can offer generic advice, such as if all other things are equal, a grand will have more responsiveness than an upright. But all things are never equal.

Or, uprights are generally placed against a wall, so the sound is somewhat muffled compared to a grand.

For sure, your Steinway upright is a wonderful instrument, especially if it's been well maintained, as I suspect yours is.

But the Boston grand, built to Steinway specifications in the Kawaii factory, is also a fine instrument.

Comparing the two is kind of like comparing oranges and tangerines. A lot in common, a lot of differences.

It does come down to your personal choice.

Pianists and teachers who are experienced musicians relate to: When I play it, how does it respond? Am I comfortable in every area of the keyboard and like what I'm hearing? You notice your emotions when playing and hearing a piano you are trying out as a candidate for a purchase. Your ears and eyebrows perk up, your face smiles, you feel connection with the instrument.

Since you don't yet play the piano with free movement and gestures at the piano, it's harder for you to tell. Has the piano been demonstrated to you by the salesperson? Has he played several styles of music on both pianos for you? Things in contrast so you can hear the piano's response? Sad/happy, fast/slow, louds/softs?

Have an outside piano technician, not the stores (since these are resales) look at the sound board and the mechanisms inside and compare the 2 for you. If you are looking only at the cabinet and listening to the sound, you are missing an important dimension of evaluating the quality, well-being, future of it's life and also protecting your investment.

Are there any guarantees with these pianos? I'm not talking tunings and such, that is an annual act of maintenance. A piano technician would charge for his inspection and advice, but that would be very valuable to you in many ways.

Does the bench match the piano? Are there any smoke or water marks evident? You want to be assured the piano has not ever had any serious circumstance before today. Look realistically at the piano in every way, not just with the "dream" that you have of owning a fine piano.

It is going to light up your life once you find your piano!

Best wishes!

Betty Patnude

John, I agree with you. I just hope the OP will be pleased with her purchase, whichever way she goes. I wonder if there are some especially good deals out there these days, given economic conditions.

Betty, I agree with you, too! We posted at the same time

Hi, thanks for all the input so far. A technician will look at both pianos before I make a choice. We have room for either. Larger grands don't seem to be in my budget range, at least those of a good quality and resale value.

They both sound very nice for what they are. Personally, I like the more 'open' sound of the grand over the vertical.

I guess the focus of my question really is centered around the action. I've heard that the Steinway accelerated action on their verticals is very good. But I've also heard that the action on a grand usually beats that of a vertical. I can sit and plunk some keys for a few minutes, but I doubt that would tell me anything as a beginner.

Another thing I have in the back of my mind is longevity. It seems pretty safe to say both will physically last a long time if well cared for. However, my feeling right now is that there might be more advanced repertoire that we'll (well, at least my son) get into...and if so, would a teacher recommend a grand at that time (based on longer keys, better action, etc.) Another way to put it: If I bought a grand now that would be sufficient for any repertoire, wouldn't that be better than buying an upright first, and then wishing we'd bought a grand later, losing something in the depreciation to boot?

Another advantage to the Boston is that you can trade it up at initial sale value for a Steinway. Ask your dealer about this.

I would only choose the upright if I liked the sound better. If I felt they each sound equally fabulous, then I would definitely go for a grand. I have a professional upright...but can't help longing for a grand even though I love the sound of my upright.

I would definitely go for the Boston with hopes of upgrading to a Steinway grand in the future.

Thanks everyone. Both pianos are used being sold by different individuals. So, the "trade up to a Steinway" isn't an option.

I've boiled your sage advice down to:
1. Have a tech check them out first (will do)
2. Make sure you have room for a 5'-1" grand (I do)
3. If grand, get at least 5'-6" (out of my budget)
4. M&H verticals are cheaper (no used ones around here)
5. Grand not nec. 'better' than an upright - depends
6. Go with upright only if sound is better
7. Have someone play them with diff. types of music
8. 'Grand' students out-perform 'Upright' students,
or at least seem to in one teacher's case.

John v.d.Brook has voiced a direct observation from his teaching experience that would seem to favor a grand. Do any others have this same observation, or the opposite (students seem to do better when they switch from a grand to a vertical?) That almost sounds silly, but who knows...

We are living in the Digital Piano Age, and you can now buy
digital pianos that are better overall than both of the pianos you
listed. For example, for around $6000 you can get something
like the Roland V-Piano or the Yamaha CLP 380, essentially
concert grands that are movable by one person, require
no tuning or maintenance, and have volume control.

Get your son the best, most modern equipment available,
concert grand-like digital pianos, instead of second-rate,
used acoustic pianos, that can't even begin to compare
with something like a V-Piano or CLP 380.

poppycock!

Well, I didn't want to chime in to this thread in the first place because the question was directed at teachers, and I'm not one. But seeing how Gyro's suggestion here has been so quickly dismissed as poppycock, I feel the need to speak up.

If you're looking to buy, why not keep an open mind and check out what digital pianos have to offer, too? You can always decide against it in the end. What have you got to lose? At least you've covered all grounds when you make your purchase.

Beside a couple of models Gyro threw out there for around $6K, there's a new breed of digital just available within the last 6 months by Yamaha called the Avant-Grand that's an even closer replication of the acoustic piano experience that it's finally become a serious contender against many acoustic pianos in its price range, in my opinion. And they come in beautiful/classy enclosures, too.

There's a baby grand version called the N3, and an upright version called the N2. The unique thing about the N2 is that although it's an upright design, it shares the exact same real acoustic-type grand piano keyboard action as its cousin the N3, in addition to the same high quality sampled sound from a Yamaha CFIIIS 9' concert grand, and the same tactile response system (vibration of the keyboard and pedal) like how you'd feel playing an acoustic. You cannot get a real grand piano keyboard action from any acoustic upright at this point even if you have the money to buy.

Check out the Yamaha website www.avant-grand.com and go to a Yamaha dealer to try both out. Check out the many recent threads on the PW forums (digital and main piano forums) for reviews. I own the N3 myself. You should be able to get the N2 for between $8K-$10K, and the N3 for maybe $11K-$13K. Ignore their list prices. Those prices don't server any purpose but to scare people away.

Like Gyro said, digital pianos offer you no tuning cost (easily $300 saving each year, $6000 over 20 years), not to mention a perfect pitch on every note every time, all the times, no need to depend on a good tech like an addict on crack, no need for voicing, no worry about humidity control, more manageable weight, and most importantly, volume control for silent practice any time day or night.

As an adult beginner, I can't begin to tell you how important the volume control has been for me, since it allows me the complete freedom of practicing as much as I want any time day or night without driving others in my family crazy. It's one thing if you can already play well and others don't mind listening to you, it's completely another thing when you as a beginner (plus your son) have to replay your pieces and difficult passages over and over and over during practice and drive your family crazy. Before you know it, you (and/or your son) may shy away from practicing enough out of consideration for your family, and it just takes away the whole point of getting the most use out of such a big investment in the first place.

I think digital pianos have come a long way. But so far, none have managed to come close enough to replicating the realism of playing an acoustic piano until now, with the Avant-Grand. Check it out. You got nothing to lose if you still want to stick with buying an acoustic in the end.

The question was:
The OP obviously appreciates the differences already, and has eliminated a synthetically produced/reproduced sound as an option.

As a teacher, I have students learning on all three - and while there may be and probably are different reasons for students to excel, above and beyond the type of instrument they practice on, my students learning on grands are all out-pacing my students who are learning on uprights who are all out-pacing my students who are learning on electronic keyboards. This includes students learning on real clunker class uprights.

This is what the OP asked, and it's the information which I believe most piano teachers can and will validate.

All other things equal has to include more maintenance than just routine tuning. My church has a very nice Steinway grand, but the action is very uneven across the keyboard. (Given the same force, some notes play much louder than others.) My home digital is far superior in that respect, though inferior in many others.

My brother has a gorgeous (both visually and tonally) Steinway upright. (He has a bigger house than I, but neither of us could fit in a grand.) It's hard to imagine a first grader being unhappy with that. We are talking about buying a grand for a 6 year old's practice piano, remember. (and a very small grand, at that; if this six year old decides on a career as a concert pianist they'll be wanting to step up to a bigger one eventually)

I also suggest not ruling out the digital prematurely. You're going to need one eventually - if both parent and child continue learning, you'll need two pianos, and some of your practice will have to be silent. Digitals have made a lot of progress.

Tim, gravity is constant. If your grand's action is uneven, it's time for maintenance. Institutional instruments are generally in poor repair. And that reminds me, I recently played at a church with both an electronic keyboard and an electronic organ. Both had electronic problems. Voices out, pedals not working, etc. Sadly, the cost of repair exceeded the cost of replacement!

As for the electronics have made a lot of progress agrument, yes they have. And if you read back through the threads for the past five years, you'll find that every year each and every discussion of electronic keyboards vs pianos, the EK proponents are arguing the amazing advancement and the "just as good or even better" than a piano. Last year's crop were "fabulous" "a better buy" than a piano, etc. Last year, accepting the challenge of a number of proponents, I went to a high end electronic keyboard dealer and tried various instruments, including a $35,000 "electronic grand." It was very, very good, almost as good as the $16,500 grand located in another part of the store.

If that's what you want, don't let me stand in your way, but if you want a piano, use the money to buy a piano. You'll be happier.

I find it incredibly hard to give my opinion about any piano without playing it first. I have played 2 pianos of the exact model, side by side, and found myself preferring one over the other. I will have to agree tho, that a student who practices on a grand does seem to be more prepared for any situation--performance, competition, college, etc. The action difference alone can be a very difficult adjustment for a student who hasn't practiced on a grand. Not to mention that the size of the instrument itself can be very intimidating to a young student when their first experience with a grand is at a performance setting. I am so grateful that my mom bought a 6'3" Baldwin when I was in elementary school. It helped prepare me immensely for all of my musical endeavors down the road. Having said that, I must admit that my first instrument was a beat up old upright with several missing ivories, but I guess I turned out all right, ha.

You won't find me saying as good or better. I can tell the difference, even at my skill level. Though, at the lower price points I think you can now make that case.

You will find me wondering if a grand really benefits a six year old, who may or may not stay with it, much more than an upright. Or even, <horrors> a moderately priced digital.

Digital pianos have a recorded sound. Acoustics have a live sound. I prefer the real thing. For me, the digital is not inspiring. IMO after about 9 months with a digital, the "new" wears off and you'll find yourself wanting something better. Digitals are great if you mainly need portability though.

Tim, as a teacher, I have found that the students who have an acoustic piano (good quality upright or grand) consistently do better in lessons and in juried events, although there are always exceptions. I've never had a student play an audition on a digital piano. I think a digital is a nice 2nd piano to have, to allow one to practice silently, to attach to a PC to do recording/notation/theory work and to have fun with. But the chances that the student will stick with and progress in piano study are better if the student has an acoustic piano at home. It holds a larger, more important presence in the home which may be part of the success rate.

Hey, thanks for your input! The piano is for me as well as my son. We're both going to start lessons once we get the piano in the door

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful (and sometimes passionate!) advice!

I apologize for having started yet another digital vs. acoustic discussion. By leaving that out of my original post, I think I opened this exchange of ideas up to the 'try a digital too' suggestions. Thanks to those of you who thought it important that I consider them. You're right, in that the newer technology makes them contenders for some people. I'm not in the market for a digital. However, I certainly understand how they are attractive to certain people in certain circumstances. Just not me, not now (though a simple recording feature would be a nice perk.) In my opinion, the writing's on the wall -- it will just be a matter of time (5 years? 10?) before the engineers are able to duplicate most if not all of the feedback generated by an acoustic so well that all of our senses are fooled! And they'll save a lot of trees, and piano movers' backs, in the process

An RPT and I visited the Boston gp-156 yesterday. Wow -- it's such a beautiful instrument. Satin black -- rare around here -- most are polished -- I love the satin. The tone is wonderful -- I would position it mid-way between a Yamaha and a Kawai. Big sound -- bigger than I was expecting, and the other 5 footers I've listened to. The touch seemed very nice to me, and also to the RPT. The RPT's words were "Her loss, your gain." It's slightly out of tune in the mid-treble, but needs no regulation. Voicing seems fine. No significant hammer wear. Not a scratch on the case. Been in a climate-controlled environment since she purchased it new in 2002.

I'm going to look at some newer, cheaper models today to compare and see if the gp-156 is worth it to me. Though my knee-jerk reaction is to BUY IT NOW!!! -- I want to make sure. Lotta money. I'm also going to play a 1098 again and see if I have the same reactions I did to the gp-156.

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed advice from your many different viewpoints.

Wow, Musicperson! That Boston sounds like a beauty. Glad you took the tech along, I would certainly do that as well. There are all sorts of things the tech will be looking for. It sounds like you have some excellent pianos to choose from. Post a picture of the one you buy, can't wait to see!

A bit late to the party, but some things to consider. Seemingly, students tend to NOT take digitals seriously and their progress suffers. They still tend to fall more into the toy/curiosity sort of classification. As to the grand vs upright thing, once again there is something about a grand that perpetually beckons and tends to drive the student. Generally it is possible to get more sound out of a grand, even a smaller grand, and at the same time more enjoyment in doing so. In undergrad, we had many practice rooms with 1098 Steinways and they were fine for woodshedding, but come time to get ready for juries and it was off to the grands. There is no substitute, and unless you cannot accomodate one there is no real reason not to have one. Given the present financial climate, there will not likely be a better time to find a great deal.

John, nice to hear from you. Been a while. Did you move? I thought you lived up north.

Your thoughts mirror much of my experience as well.

John, I have lived in Texas for 30 years. I haven't been spending as much time here at PW. I just have too much going on. It's just one of those topics that needs clarity, so I figured I'd proffer my two cents. I think it was likely the same two cents I proffered a couple of years ago however.

From my corner this comparative piano bleat is typical of US upper crust materialism
(ie. return on one’s buck) ... not a thought given to the 1st grade child who presumably will apply the first sticky fingers to the ivories.

Sometimes the Yanks give us the pip.

And here am I ... quite happy to teach on my ancient Grotrian Steinweg ... but then I can really play the jolly old piano ... and delight in taking the role of Pied Piper to the enchanted rats.

btb, can the attitude. I'm a teacher, and piano tech is my hobby, which allows me to have some instruments that I likely couldn't plunk down copious amounts of cash for. That doesn't change the reality as I see it. The original poster postulated a comparison and sought opinions. Opinions ensued, of which yours was one. I'm glad that you are teaching and I'm glad that you "really can play the jolly old piano". Many of my clients make 10 times my income easily. Many of them have uprights or spinets. I don't demand that they buy grands.When they seek to replace them, I make my opinion known.

I have proffered on this list that I attended college with many other pianists that grew up on uprights and learned to play very well. Nontheless the preference was and always will be a grand. If I had X dollars and had a choice as the original poster suggests, I would always buy a grand. You might be interested to know that I too can play the piano, in fact I'll bet most of the teachers posting here likely can. At this point I'm getting a little tired of the good old USA taking it on the chin. We don't have much to apologize for. Our standard of living is good. It is the goal of capitalism after all. If you are unhappy with yours, hop on a plane and immigrate. There has never been a country that afforded so much for so many. With our economy contracting you can get a great deal on a grand.

What would "The Tales of Winnie the Pooh" be without Eeyore? (LOL!)

A grand it will be, though I'm not sure which one yet. I played a 1098 again; its tone (as with many other used uprights in this price range) is not as nice as even the small grands I've heard.

Thanks for the constructive input everyone!

Thought you chaps deserved a reminder of Eeyore ... thanks Kentucky Ann.

Defensive US patriots make an ass of themselves ... tiddely-pom.


[img:left]http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Eeyore'shouse.JPG[/img]

"Have you all got something (to eat)?" asked Christopher Robin with his mouth full.

"All except me," said Eeyore. "As Usual." He looked round at them in his melancholy way. "I suppose none of you are sitting on a thistle by any chance?"

"I believe I am," said Pooh. "Ow!" He got up, and looked behind him. "Yes, I was. I thought so."

"Thank you, Pooh. If you've quite finished with it." He moved across to Pooh's place, and began to eat.

"It don't do them any Good, you know, sitting on them," he went on, as he looked up munching. "Takes all the life out of them. Remember that another time, all of you. A little Consideration, a little Thought for Others, makes all the difference."

(It appears a sensitive soul found a discussion comparing pianos to be inconsiderate.)

From: The House at Pooh Corner ... pages 15/17

They came round the corner, and there was Eeyore’s house, looking as comfy as anything.
“There you are,” said Piglet.
“Inside as well as outside,” said Pooh proudly.
Eeyore went inside ... and came out again.
“It’s a remarkable thing,” he said. “It is my house, and I built it where I said I did, so the wind must have blown it here. And the wind blew it right over the wood, and blew it down here, and here it is as good as ever. In fact, better in places.”


“Much better,” said Pooh and Piglet together.
“”It just shows what can be done by taking a little trouble,” said Eeyore. “Do you see, Pooh? Do you see, Piglet? Brains first and then Hard Work. Look at it! That’s the way to build a house,” said Eeyore proudly.

So they left him in it; and Christopher Robin went back to lunch with his friends Pooh and Piglet, and on the way they told him of the Awful Mistake they had made. And when he had finished laughing, they all sang the Outdoor song for Snowy Weather the rest of the way home, Piglet, who was still not quite sure of his voice, putting in the tiddely-poms again.
“And I know it seems easy,” said Piglet to himself, “but it isn’t every one who could do it.”

Would Eeyore have preferred the Steinway upright over the Boston grand? How could his house have been "comfy" without a piano?

Thanks for the thoughts John ... I’m "comfy" with my Grotrian Steinweg ... although hypothetically I might find myself taking a look at the

1. Steinway 1098 vertical
(built after Steinway improved the tuning ease and stability in 2004)

however, in the interests of getting a return on the buck,
the OP might be advised to take another look at the IMHO unknown

2. Boston GP-156 baby grand (5'1"), 2002 model

Whose manufacturer doesn’t get a mention in my 478 page reference book PIANOS and their MAKERS by Alfred Dolge

Make mention the reputable piano makes of Chickering & Sons (1823) or Mason and Hamlin Co., in Boston ... and you’re obviously in another ball game .

However, the patter which sets the scene has all the ingredients of a society dame wanting to impress quasi-cultured visitors with a bit of focal interior decor ... a grand piano (the architect talking).

If only more research was given to achieving the basic objective of being able to freely play the piano ... and you and I, John, know what it takes to learn to play the jolly old piano ... poor little "sticky fingers" is not likely to get a look in on the modernistic Boston grand which is likely to be firmly locked to avoid depreciation (to quote gloomy Eeyore).

Underlining the dumb Victorian adage: Children shall be seen ... but not heard!!

I’ll none of it.

I somehow fail to understand the validity of a treatise (the aforementioned Dolge) originally published in 1911 and how it necessarily relates to the present. That would be like buying a history of the car published in 1911 that would by necessity exclude some fairly illustrious makes produced since. That would be the equivalent of saying that if an auto manufacturer didn't exist in 1911 that any contemporary manufacturer cannot be taken seriously. Boston is far from my favorite instrument, but I would still pick a Boston grand over a 1098 and I have played both. Having said that, I would also prefer a Steinway grand to a Boston grand, but that is not the debate. For clarification, the 1098's I played were brand new to the college the year I enrolled. They weren't worn out when I attended, nor were the grands. They were all new instruments, so it was a decent situation for comparison. I played a Grotrian Steinweg grand in the early 1990's and I preferred it to the 1098 as well.

There is more than a little presumption going on to imply that the original poster has no interest other than to impress the uninitiated with a grand piano.