Has anyone read "Ways of the Hand, the organization of improvised conduct"? It's by David Sudnow, and is about "how his hands learned to improvise jazz on the piano." I learned about this book, of all places, in a linguistics class. Apparently, he was very good friends with the ethnomethodologist who created Conversation Analysis (one of the things I do as a Japanese linguist), and that's part of why the book came up. I guess Sudnow was originally a sociologist and gave up his pursuits in that field to devote his energy to jazz piano. Anyone know the details about that?

Anyway, this book is not, as I understand it, about "how to play jazz piano," I think it's about his journey, and his observation of the "ego" or the agency of the hand, as almost separate from the player. I haven't read the book yet, so I might be off here.

It reminded me of the sometimes repeated comment that
"You can only play as fast as you can think." To that I would add "and you can play a lot faster if you simply don't think at all."

I'm not sure when I'll be able to read this book, (maybe it can be my spring break book) but I'll try to write back with comments when I do. And if anyone has read it, please comment here.

It's been a lo-o-ong time since I read it, but I remember thinking it was more an anthropology/sociology kind of book in some ways than a how-to-play piano book, as you say. And sometimes it was kind of dense. Nonetheless, I remember finding some of it's viewpoints being a nice contrast in perspective from other piano books I was reading at the time.

From other books I've read in the past and recently it seems that "conscious" thinking is way too slow for fast passages. There is a feed-back loop, tho, between playing slow enough to think consiously and having what one guy calls the "hidden layer" in our brain be schooled enough to be faster than conscious thought (that's from, most recently, Robert A Burton, On Being Certain). I've phrased it, for me, as not being able to play faster than I can hear. But, according to this book, our brain in fact plays tricks on us and makes us think we can consciously actually think or hear that fast, but we can't.

But Sudnow went in to great detail in his observations of how, physically and not necessarily consciously, our hand/brain learns the idioms, if you will, of jazz.

At least, that's the way I remember it, and have distorted it over time

Cathy

Tnanks for the comments Cathy. I'll have to resist my urge to go find the Burton book! (have too much I want to read already!)

I'm really interested in these questions about processing time though (so maybe I will have to get that book sooner and not later! The brain does process things incredibly fast (any read the book "Blink") But it's interesting to think that we can play faster than we can hear....

And without launching in to a discussion of my coursework, I think it's really interesting that there are so many overlaps between concepts that relate to linguistics and music-related concepts. (Or maybe not interesting, maybe it shouldn't be surprising, since it's all language...)

I don't know anything about Sudnow's method, but I've always had the impression that it was very accessible, so it's interesting that this book seems very "heady"

Dang, now I'm going to have to find Sudnow's book and read it.

My studio teacher in college years ago had me read "The Inner Game of Tennis," which led me to read quite a bit of that kind of stuff... Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, etc. My experience was that there is really something useful there for the musician. Sudnow's book sounds like it espouses similar concepts. I'm anxious to check it out and compare. Has anybody read both?

I have the book 'Ways of the Hand' and have read it. It is a very difficult book to read because of Davids mode of thought and writing. My wife, who is a real bookworm found itreally exhausting to get through two pages.

My opinion is that it is more a thought process and approach to the piano rather than a method book. There are many other ways of getting into Sudnow. He wrote the excellent works 'I Could Write a Book' which is a very interesting descriptive of his piano method and there are numerous fantastic cassette and CD recordings of his seminars.

If you are keen it would be worth visiting the website. Although I am NOT recommending that you join, its worth asking some questions.

There are two versions of "Ways Of the Hand". The newer version, which came out just a few years ago, is an attempt to rewrite the original text into something easier to read. Personally, I don't think it succeeded. I don't see that as negative because I like Sudnow's style of writing and speaking, but simply that I don't think Sudnow could really consciously change his "Stream of consciousness" approach to writing.

My suggestion for reading either version of the book is to read it FAST. Skim over the surface, and linger on those areas that call out to you. If you have ever read Jack Karouac, you will know what I mean.

To me, Sudnow's book is a very interesting backdrop for his piano method. In the book, he spends a lot of time learning off recordings, as jazz musicians have done for a very long time. He talks a lot about exploring the keyboard and "finding the pathways" over which these licks he is learning off recordings, travel. It is a VERY DIFFERENT approach from the classical realm, and his piano method really reflects that too. To me, his "exploring the keyboard and its pathways" sets the mindset from which one approaches the Sudnow method. A lot of people have trouble with the book, but I think that skimming over the top of the dense descriptions, diving into those that reach out to you, and just getting acquainted with his style, will really help. It is one of those books to be read more than once.

There is a companion book, called "Talk's Body", in which Sudnow explores his hands going between the typewriter as he writes his book and the keyboard as he plays and observes his hands in that setting. While it is a good read too, it does not have quite the impact that "Ways Of the Hand" might have on a Sudnow piano student.

By the way, I listened through the Sudnow course again recently and am firmly back into practicing the method. I can post observations if anybody is interested. Of all the methods I have purchased and explored over the years, Sudnow is by far the best FOR ME (not necessarily for everybody). Everybody needs different ways of approaching learning, and Sudnow just happens to fit my needs best. Work has been stressful (i.e. meeting project schedules, etc.) lately, along with caretaking of my wife's medical issues. Playing "Sudnow piano" has become the one oasis in my life that keeps me grounded and ready to deal with the rest. I am not participating in the Sudnow forums, and don't plan to. Those are very nice and supportive folks, so I am certainly not "dissing" them at all. I have just found from personal experience that I work best alone on the Sudnow method. By saying this, I am simply highlighting that participation in the Sudnow forums is NOT necessary to enjoy and progress through the method. Forum participation is OPTIONAL, but it can certainly be rewarding since it is a fine community of like-minded folks (I know because there was a period of a few years in which I did participate while Sudnow was still alive and participating - I didn't leave in a tiff or anything like that, I just got away from piano for quite a while as life demanded other attentions).

Tony

I liked that book. My impression of it was that he was a trained observer of the learning process. He took the opportunity to document his learning process regarding beginning proficient Jazz piano playing. I thought it was great insight into how we all may/might learn this very challenging instrument.

It has been a long time since I read the book. To be honest, I am not sure I would look forward to devoting the effort to reading it again right now. I'm tooo busy. :-)

ShiroKuro - I am looking forward to your comments after you read the book.

Tony -- regarding that first reading, I agree whole heartedly. I did linger over many areas that called out to me. Other than that, just go for the "gist" of it as Suds would say. Glad to see you are back with the method.

Barb

The book is really about epistemology, not music-making. Even David had mixed feelings about it. When he was asked to help create the "easier to read" version his heart wasn't completely in it. He told me that he had said what he wanted to say in the initial volume, and while he recognized it might benefit from some editing, he never felt the information would be widely read or understood anyway. "It was never intended as a 'how-to' book", he told me.

Yes, it definitely does not read like a "how to" book, but it does certainly provide interesting insight into the man who created the method. At least for me, the book clearly reflects the mindset of the Sudnow method from the perspective of seeing how he approached the instrument. What Sudnow is describing musically with his work at the piano of "finding the pathways on the keyboard" has long been a common practice among jazz musicians in their learning process for decades, and Sudnow's book, intentional or not, clearly and beautifully depicts this from a practitioner's viewpoint (i.e. the man definitely "walked the talk" that later became the heart of his piano method).

This is why I said "To me, his "exploring the keyboard and its pathways" sets the mindset from which one approaches the Sudnow method."...

...because people who have either had no exposure to playing a musical instrument or have learned to play one instrument or another via a teacher or at least following the "classical" route, might not have encountered the mindset of a person learning from recordings and figuring out things for him or herself at the keyboard - which is a very different mindset from how playing an instrument is formally taught and/or presented in books on the subject. Sudnow's writing, while not a "how to", certainly gives the reader a sense of that mindset.

Though I have been "in and out" of the Sudnow method specifics over the years, I have always approached playing in the manner Sudnow describes, while also taking care to teach myself the underlying theory and music reading (sort of straddling both worlds). But I know of quite a number of people for whom not having every note they play being dictated from the sheet music, would be a very foreign and unimaginable thing to engage in. Reading Sudnow's book would really bring to life one man's world in which such an approach is central.

I never did talk to Sudnow about his book, and have to respect the fact that you (Markham) did. My comments are strictly what I got from the book after a couple of reads through it, and then reflecting on both the Sudnow method (which is really bringing the "jazz" tradition of learning to people who might not otherwise encounter such an approach) and the people I know for whom such a process would be completely foreign.

It is very common for the author to have an intention for writing a book, and have the readers come away with things unintended but nonetheless valuable. A good writer and/or book will often have this occur, and Sudnow's book is no exception (because it was written by a good writer and it is a very good book). Personally, I felt the original version of the book was just fine as it was, and that the rewrite didn't make it any "better".

Tony

Yes, I'm reading, listening, and playing a lot. Its nice to see the added bonus of the recent addition of that Suds video conversion that can be downloaded.

TonyB says you don't need to be a member of the forums to learn.

Your continuing to whine here probably doesn't help your getting back into "the club." You were, IMNSHO, lucky you didn't get banned here, too.

You used two different user names (out of your 9 or more) in the same thread, one to praise Sudnow, one to express doubts. It was deceptive, and deliberately so. I wouldn't trust your "hand of friendship."

I, for one, have no sympathy

Cathy

And I see you edited your post Not that you noted that in the changed post

But - it's a better post with the edit -

Cathy

Cathy, would you ever get a life!

Cathy, once again you have stepped into a thread - not to offer any opinion on anything other than to get on your high horse. Your taunting doesn't have logic nor reason.

I do, in fact, have a reason, and it was the one in my first post - the post in which I quoted you before you edited it. I have ignored several threads/posts of yours in which you have made comments like the one you edited out, but decided not to ignore it this time. The kinds of comments you edited out seem to me be designed to manipulate the Sudnow site into letting you back on - and they are designed to imply that somehow the Sudnow site is being unreasonable. You even made a comment in one thread that perhaps the Sudnow folks don't know how much publicity you give them, as if perhaps they should be grateful to you. I don't think the Sudnow folks are unreasonable. If someone would like a link to the thread in which they explained what happened I can look it up. And I don't think using the ABF at PW to try to smear them, or shame them, or whatever you think you are doing, is ethical.

So, I disagree. I think my posts are reasonable.

I appreciate the fact that you edited both your original posts and the last two (and yes, I saw them before you edited them). Perhaps you are learning. Keep it up and I won't bug you any more

Cathy

Tony - My opinion about the book is similar to yours. As you know, Sudnow's view of things, even the things he created, would sometimes become open to revision and new insights - not always, but often. I have no special insight into David Sudnow's mind - half the time I struggled to understand what he was saying- and we weren't without our disagreements- but he had one of those intellects that sometimes blurred the distinction between brilliant and obtuse. When we talked in person I imagined that I could see his mouth lagging behind his brain - and what came out of his mouth was often his own verbal shorthand in an attempt to catch up. Or it may be that I just wasn't smart enough to understand him. It all becomes aggravatingly recursive so don't assume I have some special insight - he was a very complicated man.

Glad we have one thing in common!

David was a 'thinker' and I think he approached the piano in the same way humans approach many of the challenges of life. His seminars are so good. When I first listened to his seminar where he discusses how as adults we failed after taking lessons , my whole approach to playing and thinking about lessons changed.

I couldn't wait to quit lessons. It took me three months to pluck up the guts ot tell my teacher that I was leaving. When I finally did, I was filled with a breath of fresh air. I sat down and listened to the seminar again and again.

Markham:

Thanks. Somehow, you two did hit it off though. Though there were several occasions in which I was able to truly talk to Sudnow, I suspect you got the "best seat in the house" when he came to town. So I certainly appreciate your insights.

I remember one of those "liberal arts" classes I had to take in college in which we had to read pieces by a number of American authors and come back to class ready to discuss them. The professor was a poet, professional by any measure and recognized by same. When we were asked to talk about what we thought the author of a particular piece meant by the writing, more often than not, the professor would eventually tell us that the author had none of those lofty things in mind that we ascribed to the piece. Instead, the author was just drunk at the time of the writing or simply needed some money and cranked the thing out or whatever. His point was that the "greatness" usually lived in the mind of the reader, rather than the author. In a sense it was funny.

Tony

Ragtime Clown:

There is just something about Sudnow's recorded seminar - when you REALLY hear him talk, you walk away feeling the very real possibility of the whole premise - that anybody willing to give it a go, can be successful at this piano playing enterprise. Definitely listen to it over and over. One very important thing is that, with repeated listenings, you not only get/stay motivated, but you learn to REALLY understand his approach and then are able to follow it.

That seminar reminds me of a book that was later made into a movie, called "Contact". When the "aliens" make contact with earth, the transmission is multi-layered. As the scientists peel through the layers, they eventually discover the plans to build a craft that would allow them to travel to the alien location. With the Sudnow seminar, as you listen repeatedly, you eventually come to understand the thought process that allows you to achieve what he is telling you. Listening to the whole thing again recently, I remain convinced of this, and I think that is why some people, on cursory listening, write it off as not having substance. Sudnow was a pretty deep guy, and his message is buried under layers of interesting verbosity. Only the most tenacious of listeners will fully appreciate that.

That seminar is truly self-contained. I think that until one gets those 20 tunes well in hand, there really is little else we need to attend to with regard to playing piano.

Then, I would suggest the following:

- Jimmie Amadie's "Harmonic Foundation For Jazz and Popular Music"
- Robert Conti's "The Formula"
- possibly Duane Shinn's "How To Dress Up Naked Music"

The Jimmie Amadie book is just back in print, though I don't know for how long. I could swear that Sudnow took his harmonic queues from that book because it is EXACTLY like what Sudnow teaches for voicing chords, but it goes much farther, filling in all the rest of the story. I can't say that Sudnow even knew about the book, but it is so Sudnow-like in its "recipe" manner, that it is uncanny and a perfect continuation of where Sudnow leaves off.

Robert Conti's "The Formula" is a book/DVD that teaches you how to create very nice chord progressions under the melody, so that when you have mastered what Sudnow/Amadie teach, you can start literally creating your own chord progressions under the melody - never playing the same song the same way twice. It was written for guitar, but keyboard players use it too because it is the most concise and practical treatment of its kind.

Duane Shinn's "How To Dress Up Naked Music" simply shows you all kinds of ways to make runs and stuff to add class to your playing when you are ready to move on from Sudnow's grabbing of clusters.

All of the above, in my opinion, provide a complete set of tools for what Sudnow calls "song play" at the piano. You don't need another person or group to take you through any of these. But you do have to "want to..." as Sudnow says in his seminar.

Regards,

Tony



Tony

Fortunately the Amadie book, which I have had for many years, doesn't have any hidden messages buried under layers of verbosity. I guess I'm not that tenacious! I like to get right to the point. TonyB, I like your Conti and Shinn suggestions.

btcomm:

It was in these forums that I found out about the Amadie book. Recently, I got an email from Jamey Aebersold saying that they have it in stock now that it is being reprinted. I got it, and it really is everything that I had read in the forums - excellent. I saw it going for around $225 on Ebay and on some used book sites, so at $44.95, I am glad I waited. I also got the companion book on improv at the same time. I am not clear on whether that was simply new old stock that is no longer being printed or if it is aslo being printed now. That was slightly less expensive at $39.95.

As for the Sudnow method, it is, in a sense, deceptively simple in that, while grabbing the chord clusters to play songs, you are learning the skills needed to get around the keyboard. Sudnow talked a lot about the "hands learning the shape of the keyboard", both in the book being discussed here and in his seminar. He believed (rightly or wrongly) that rather than learning general technique through the use of exercises, you "learn what you need to know in the context of the song, where you will use it". That includes both physical playing technique and understanding how to harmonize a melody. Though he does not cover the breadth of detail that Amadie does in his book, Sudnow captured enough to make his method worthwhile and easily expandable once you mastered his method.

I don't mean to imply that Sudnow's seminar is a treasure hunt in which you have nothing to work with until you have gotten down to that elusive grain of truth. Instead, he gives you everything step by step, and most people should get that with one or two times through the listening. Instead, what happens with repeated listenings is that you begin to grasp how Sudnow thinks and therefore really get a handle on what he is all about in the method. When you get that, you really begin to get a sense that anyone really can do this. But on the surface, the whole thing sounds too simple for most people who have been "conditioned" to believe that they have to go through years of arduous study of scales and exercise to play even the simplest music on the piano and that all this is necessary to finally get to real "song play". Sudnow provides step by step guidance on what to practice and how to practice it. But his way of thinking is decidedly different, so we need to get acclimated to it before we really get to understand and believe what he is saying.

I hope that makes more sense.

A number of people in these forums have been disappointed with Shinn's courses, mainly the "smaller" ones such as "How To Dress Up Naked Music". In these courses, he assumes a fair amount of background, so it can be like walking into the middle of a conversation and trying to play catch-up. But after going through the Sudnow method, you will know what you are looking for next, and then this Shinn course will make sense and be a good compliment to the Sudnow material.

With the Robert Conti book/DVD, you can learn to go from voicing the chords as provided in a fakebook as Sudnow teaches, to creating new harmony under the melody every tim you play the same melody of a tune. I have seen people consistently in the guitar forums praise that book because it is concise, understandable, and always immediately applicable, taking material that would otherwise be difficult to understand and putting it right under your fingers.

Tony

One of the things that Sudnow does very well (and is really not done particularly well in some other self-teaching materials) is to describe in detail the process by which one approaches the materials and the attitude one should approach it with. If you listen carefully to the seminar, you will come away with a very clear idea of what to do and how to do it. That takes a lot of explaining on his part, and would take a lot of explaining here. If I pulled pieces from what he says to quote here, it would merely sound trivial. But in the context of his seminar, it is a complete detailed description of what one should be doing and thinking to properly gain the skills he iis teaching. Listening to this seminar over the years changed my approach to music in general and also put the study of theory against the practical application into much better balance. When we teach ourselves, it is all too often that we get things out of balance, focusing too heavily on one aspect while ignoring another. The Sudnow seminar is one of the few self-teaching tools that directly addresses this problem. In doing that, it does get a bit verbose, but I am really not sure how he could have done it otherwise, since ultimately, he does achieve his purpose.

Tony

Tony, You explain things beautifully. There are many of us who do conscientiously follow David's instructions on the "doing and thinking" as you describe. We achieve our musical goals in a very big way!

Barb

This has turned into an interesting thread, thanks everyone. And not exactly what I was expecting! I got the book not because I wanted to learn the Sudnow method, but because I always jump at the chane to read about people's reflections on how they experience the work we do at the piano. However, reading all this has made me curious about the method itself! Not any ime soon, but maybe someday I'll look into it. (it will have to be after I finish grad school!)

One thing I want to add:



I think it's worth noting that there are a lot of people who agree with this idea, and it's not limited to non-classical music. But I think what's important here is for adults to realize that we can get into the business of "making music" right away, and with the right approach/attention, everything we play can become the foundation for the next steps, for the next music we make.

I'll stop with that because I haven't read the book yet!