Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Found (I think) source of buzz in Hamilton, how to repair?

I have been noticing a periodic buzz in my Hamilton recently, especially when playing some notes around the middle of the keyboard, but definitely when playing tunes like I typically do that span the entire keyboard. Note B3 (the B immediately below middle C) is the worst, but there are others that also do it, too.
(A chromatic scale on my Hamilton from A0 to C8.) Some of the dampers in the bass are buzzing as well, B3 (in the area where the buzz is) is played at around 1:13.8, and the top A has a click when releasing the key (that I suspect is the jack returning, but I'm not sure).

As for the buzz at B3 and other notes, I think I've found the cause....



(Click on any of the pictures to see a larger / magnifiable version on Picasa. Also there are more photos of the piano in that album and also here.)

So what can be done to repair that (preferably without taking a tuning lever to the piano, except as necessary to tune it - it needs it anyway but is probably within a few cents of 440 and I'd like to maintain it at pitch)? The rib is definitely loose from the board, as I can quiet the buzz by applying pressure to the rib from the back while playing the affected notes.


Other than that, it seems to be generally a good piano, and I especially like the good quality bass (in my opinion) for its size, even though some strings have a bit of falseness to them - btw is there any way to fix that short of replacing the strings? (As I said before the piano needs tuning, but you should be able to get an idea of the falseness in some of the lowest 10 notes, as those are single strings.) As for the tenor and treble, though, I happen to like my other (older - 1950) Hamilton somewhat better, for the most part, especially at the break. (Chromatic Scale - 1950 Hamilton) For example, notes C#3 and D3 on the 1956 Hamilton (#167714, played at approx 0:55 in the first linked recording) have the typical sound of wound strings, which I don't really care for that high up on the scale, especially when the bass tone is as good as this Hamilton's bass is. However, the same two notes, which are plain trichords on the 1950 Hamilton (#144211, played at approx 1:05 in the recording of that piano), don't have that weird tonal quality, and are actually more like the tone I prefer in that area. Note E3 on the 1950 Hamilton, though, has that "wound string" type sound to it, though, even though it's a plain trichord. I suspect something may be up with a termination, but as yet have been unable to diagnose it. As I said, though, I generally prefer the tenor and treble tone of the 1950 Hamilton to the 1956, but I like the bass on the '56 Hamilton better. For a couple other examples (which can be heard in the recordings), C4 (middle C) on the 1956 Hamilton to me sounds a bit dull and lifeless, but C4 on the 1950 Hamilton has what I would consider a much better tone with a nice solid sharp attack. Some parts of the midrange '56 Hamilton are actually quite nice, though, like G4 for example.
Ok, enough with the note-by-note comparisons.



Also, I wouldn't be surprised if some of you may be starting to get a bit tired of me posting seemingly random recordings of me playing scales on my piano, etc... Only thing is, sometimes I want to pinpoint specific things, and it becomes difficult when there's anywhere from 5 to 20 other notes sounding simultaneously. Also, I am not that well up to date on what songs are popular these days, but I would like to learn some. I especially like traditional type gospel music, but would be willing to consider learning other types as well, like video game themes (a couple of my favorites are some from Super Mario Brothers and the FarmVille (yes, I play that game, and I actually made a piano keyboard artwork with in-game items) theme), some pop/rock maybe, etc.... but I really don't care for music like smooth jazz, funky jazz (or whatever it is that has funky, non-standard chords and chord progressions, for example), etc. I also like a few classical pieces, but I'm wary of posting any more of that on here, as I got soundly criticized for butchering those pieces and not remaining note-for-note true to the songs. Only thing is, that's basically my style - I nearly ALWAYS make up an arrangement of a song on the fly while I'm playing it - I virtually NEVER play the exact notes, although I usually try to remain true to the basic building blocks of the song (chords, tune, timing, etc, although sometimes I will take liberties in some of those areas as well, but even so, the song should still be easily recognizable).
So I'd welcome suggestions for songs to learn to play so that I have something else to post. For showcasing / testing a piano, ideally I'd like something that uses the entire piano (from A0 to C8, but not necessarily by way of playing a chromatic scale or glissando), has a dynamic range from at least pp to ff, has a rapid playing passage or two, etc, and is preferably less than 1:30 to 2:00 long (but I would be willing to consider longer ones).




Slight deviation from topic.... has the Baldwin 6000 (Concert Vertical) ALWAYS used its basic scale (32-note bass, wound strings up to C#3, 3 plain bichords in bass) since it was introduced in 1984, or was it too change in 1987 at the same time the Hamilton was changed, and it used something different before that? If it was changed, what was it using before? Or are there other full-size uprights that have a bass/tenor break no higher than on a Steinway K or Steingraeber 138 (assuming it's at least 51-52" tall), have a Baldwin / Hamilton-like tone, a bass that would be as good as the Baldwin 6000 with Arledge strings, and a full-width music desk like on the 6000 or 243, among other things? Basically the only thing that's really keeping me from considering the 6000 (at least ones built from 1987 on - haven't seen any from 1984-1986 so I don't know if those are different or not) is the configuration at the break. I can hear the wound strings in that section of the piano, and I personally don't care for it. Am I one of the few people on here that can often pick out the location of the bass/tenor break on a piano, often without seeing the piano, or in some cases, even knowing what the piano is? (I remember a few months back I correctly guessed (in a guess the piano thread) that a particular grand piano had a break between E2 and F2, and that was before we were told it was a 7-foot Brodmann.) Consequently, my preference is not to attempt to smooth out the break (which, in my experience, results in having the wound string tone WAY too high (in some cases maybe a half octave) for a given size piano for my taste, but to put the break at a certain location.




As for that crack in the Hamilton's board, though.... should I see about repairing it? (And, I don't know that I'm ready to get into voicing any time soon, but is it possible to voice the 1956 Hamilton's tenor and treble to have a tone more like that of the 1950 Hamilton, while leaving the bass mostly alone? Or should I just live with it as is, and start being on the lookout for a piano that combines the best of both (including price - the 1950 Hamilton was $0 and the 1956 Hamilton was $349)?


One last note... This Hamilton (in the above pictures) was built in 1956, and is a 243 scale (2 bichords in tenor), serial #167714. Some time ago I saw a Hamilton on Craigslist (it wasn't a local one, though - I just happen to have taken a liking to Hamiltons and am trying to catalog as many as possible to, among other things, figure out when various design features were changed). That one was also a 1956 Hamilton, serial #165949, but it had the 242 scale (plain trichords starting from tenor). I have noticed this on the inside right cabinet of my 1956 Hamilton...

Is it possible that it is the 16th 243-scale Hamilton ever built, or is there no significance to that marking on the piano?

So is there anything that can be done about the crack or the loose rib?

Yes, do a search of past posts. I do not have experience in these repairs, so I cannot help you directly.

I searched, but came up mostly empty. Most of what I did find dealt with problems with grands, or buzzes caused in other ways, but nothing was mentioned about repairing a cracked board and loose rib in a vertical with the strings at tension (within a few cents of 440).
I would, if at all possible, like to repair this without destringing the piano. A few wound strings do need help, though - several of the lowest notes (unichords) have some falseness to them, and one of the strings of the first bichord above the break has a partial loose winding coil at the top end, which itself doesn't buzzz, but makes for a mismatched unison and difficulty in tuning it. Other than that, the bass sounds great - actually better to my ear than the new Hamiltons.
Also is it possible that repairing the rib/crack may help with some of the problems I'm having with tuning stability?

It can be repaired from the back but it's not "pretty" or the preferred method but someone gave me a link a while back to the instructions and it worked for my old upright. It involves drilling holes through the ribs and putting a screw through to pull the board tight to get rid of the buzzing. I can look it up later and try to re post the link if you'd like. Quick disclaimer since we're on the tech forum I am NOT a tech. I'm a wanna be.

It sounds like the instrument has a number of issues. As always the decision of what to do is dependent upon a number of factors. If the situation is a low budget and/or preferring as little work as possible (or doubt about the advisability of spending either time or money), then compromise usually ends up being the name of the game.

With that in mind, as stated above, one method I have seen of dealing with a loose rib is to drill through the back of the soundboard into the rib and tighten with glue and screws. I've even seen a hole drilled through a back post for access if necessary. Bear in mind, I am not advocating this procedure, just mentioning it as a quick, cheap way to handle the issue.

With soundboard cracks as well, and some action work necessary, one really needs to decide just how much or how little to invest in the instrument. Ultimately your own value of the instrument, your time and finances and expected future use will be your guide. What may not be commercially feasible may otherwise be valuable if your intent is to do this to learn.

Voicing before any other necessary action work is done is somewhat an exercise in futility. You definitely need to make sure the hammers are shaped, damper buzzing dealt with etc. first. Beyond that, obviously a hammer is voiced individually so if you only want to work in the tenor or treble sections, of course you can do that. Needless to say you will want to maintain some sort of natural consistency throughout.

Regarding the numbers in the side, I expect that is nothing more than a production number, commonly used by manufacturers during the building process (having all the case parts for an individual instrument stamped with the same number helps them keep track of things). It has nothing to do with the serial number which is usually assigned at the end of the build.

Good luck.