This is part of the reason I'm overly attatched to my old upright "PSO". Right around the time I became interested in learning to play piano my dad became unemployed. Pre-craigslist it wasn't as easy to find things for free and "Putting the word out" never did get me a piano. I finally got one...

Not every makers produced quality pianos a century ago, but I would definitely love to receive a handsome 19th-century Chickering upright.

I always am awed at how the craftsmen back then gave such attention to pianos' detail without benefiting from modern tools.

Anyone want to tell me what their idea of a historically significant piano is?
For all those that should go to the dump or the burn pile, if there were an alternate address - would it matter?
Within the rebuilding community that I am familiar with, the rebuilders do not have any issues with restoring anything piano that anyone would want - the issue is that the someone wanting the work done would need to pay for it.
Got deep pockets? send them your old whatever and it will come back to you a quality musical insturment - probably better than it was originally - especially if you opt for some 21st century re-engineering.

My tongue was firmly inserted in my cheek. I often use WNG parts unless the owner has issues. I almost always replace the board, always the block and usually change a great deal in the process. No reason to do all that work and not give the customer the best possible "musical" instrument. It's about music after all is said and done, so I say modernize and improve wherever possible. I have little trouble with your philosophy as it is similar to my own. There are very few instrument worthy of museum restoration. There are many older pianos with cabinetry that is not available today and if the customer wants to spend their money restoring them I have no problem with that so long as they understand the economic considerations first.

I got rid of my 57" tall old upright a year and a half ago, because I thought it wasn't worth fixing up, even if I did the work myself. However, I have yet to play any new uprights (including the Steingraeber 138K, Heintzman 140CK, Baldwin 6000, etc) that had a bass tone as good as that old upright had, in spite of its badly worn hammers. The 1956 Hamilton I now have actually is surprisingly good, but is still no match, especially on the lowest few notes, for that tall old upright. I'm still on the lookout for a tall upright that would be significantly BETTER than that old upright, and won't break the bank (which I very nearly did with my 1956 $349 Baldwin Hamilton and my 1950 $free other Hamilton), but so far haven't found anything. I almost would consider something like a Baldwin 6000 Concert Vertical (if I had to go with a newer piano), but I really don't care for the scale configuration at the break in all the ones I've seen. Quick question for those that know Baldwins... did they ALWAYS use that scale (32-note bass, wound strings to C#3, 3 plain bichords in the bass) from when the piano was introduced in 1984, or was their scale changed from something else in 1987, when the Hamilton was also changed (from 2 bichords in the tenor to 4 bichords in the tenor)? If it was changed, what was the original scale? That said, a couple things I do like about the 6000 are it has a nice quality bass (although with a weird tone to it - I'd want to somehow change it, for example by putting Arledge strings in it (that's what I had put in my old upright), and is one of the few newer uprights I have seen that has a wide enough music desk for me.

As I understand it, no uprights are currently being produced that are over 55" tall. What does someone do when they want to replace, say, a 60" upright, with a new one, don't want a grand or digital, and want it to be a better piano than the old one would have been if it had been totally rebuilt (including with a new block, board, action, rescaling if necessary (but NOT taking it so far as to put wound strings where there had previously been plain strings, unless the original scale is absolutely ridiculous, for example running plain trichords down to, say, D2, on a spinet, something I have never actually seen though))?

When someone says it's not worth it to restore an old upright, do they mean that it will cost more to restore it than you will be able to sell it for when it is done, OR.... do they mean that it would be more expensive to COMPLETELY rebuild (new block, board, action, rescale, etc, but not including the cabinet) the old piano than it would be to buy a particular new (Chinese, for example) piano, AND the old, restored, more expensive piano would be musically INFERIOR to the new, less expensive piano?

It's downright irresponsible to throw away the high quality vintage grands. My old school has a 1920s Steinway D in one of the rehearsal halls that the technician is just itching to get rid of, which I think would be stupid. In contrast, the place I'm at now has one from the teens that is waiting to be completely restored and placed alongside the "new" D as a main concert instrument.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of brands like Weber, Sohmer, Steinert, and even Baldwin, that tend to not be financially worth rebuilding (for a shop)... especially now that the Chinese pianos are getting really good. Other than that, there is no reason why these can't be rebuilt to match or exceed the performance of new instruments.

Historically sigificant pianos? Concert grand steinways. Bosendorfers. Art case pianos. Pianos owned by special figures (chopin etc)

I guess you can say lots of pianos can be significant.

Historically sigificant pianos? Concert grand steinways. Bosendorfers. Art case pianos. Pianos owned by special figures (chopin etc)
_____________________________________________________________I respect but do not share your opinion (maybe with the exception of a piano owned by Chopin).
Perception and reality certainly have diverged in this thread. But again, if you love a piano and can attach meaning to it of historical significance, you certainly are free to do so. And if your piano is dead, it can be brought back to life if you choose.

As I sit at my 2009 Estonia L190, I have wondered who might be playing this instrument well into the future when I am "playing the harp". Will it be a cherished fine instument that great granddad bought way back at the beginning of the century? Sold to strangers?... or will it become a broken down out of tune relic from years past?

To be decided by your beneficiaries? Perhaps a codicil is necessary there?

Stanza - What would give you greater pleasure? To have a great-grandaughter of yours sitting at a beautifully restored 100 year old piano, playing some of her great-grandfather's own music, or to have it rotting under tons of garbage at the dump? Some people would have you believe it's not important. It's just iron, wood, felt and leather, after all. Nothing more than an appliance in the kitchen, when you look at it that way.

I'm curious how you feel? Chuck

Thanks Gene. I understand.

Sometimes I wonder if the person that bought my piano new had any clue that it would still be played nearly 120 years later?

Dear Little Blue Engine - When you referred to your upright as a Piano Shaped Object in a previous post, was that in your own opinion, or a remark from a technician or friend?

When you sit down at your piano and close your eyes, can you imagine it as it was 120 years ago? Would you like it that way again?

Besides not having a piano to play for a time, what's to keep you from going forward restoration?

Could you send me an "as is" photograph, or post it here? I'd love to see it, just to imagine its potential. Chuck

if we are talking about antiques...

I've said this before.. If someone offered me a Steiway 6' grand as a trade for my Erard I would probably accept it only to sell the Steinway and get another Erard or two.. and have a bit of money left over for something else.

My 1844 Pleyel is surely going to be of much more historical and musical value in 100 years than any yamaha or kaway... or steinway..

just a question of rarity and historical relevance..

Chopin played a piano like mine...

it should be quite enjoyable on a quiet evening from what i can tell.. still have a long way to go before it's finished..

Hi Acortot. Sounds like you have a nice collection of pianos! A pleyel and Erard! Doesn't get any better than that.

As you may know, Erard is my dream piano. I nearly got an 1855 6'. Ugh! Just think. It was made in Paris, and stayed there most its life. Who *might* have graced those keys??? Lots of famous musicians have been in paris during those times! (left during WWII- current owner was a bomber pilot and strapped it into his plane and flew home!) They have a superb sound in my mind!

Thanks for sharing.

Chuck, I must say that you have done an absolutely beautiful restoration on that Weber!
Spectacular!

How does she play?

Mike (what the m stands for when it does not stand for some of the other things that m could stand for).

Thanks a lot, Mike. I'll let you know how it plays when I've got the rebuild on the action done. The WNG parts are on order. It has separate rails for the reps and for the hammer shanks that screw down individually to the wooden brackets, which are in turn attached individually to the keybed. I'm going to retain the old rails, and add on the new parts, instead of having a whole top action done. Also will use WNG parts for the back action. The old action parts had been messed with by someone previously and were not in any shape to try and save.

I've promised completion by March 15th, so I need to be burning some midnight oil to make deadline while I keep up with my tunings.

Thanks again. Chuck

Well, PSO seems to be the opinion of quite a few people here. When I first asked for advice someone actually suggested that flammable liquid and matches would solve my piano problems. Luckily my tuner doesn't share that opinion. I get frustrated with it because the action problems are holding me back in my learning to play but overall I use "piano shaped object" in a joking affectionate way. What little info I've been able to find on "Gildemeester & Kroeger" suggests they made good quality expensive pianos and when I play it I can very easily imagine what an amazing instrument it was when it was new. I can imagine it that way again, but as a disclaimer I should point out I was an Art major in college so I have a very good imagination In my pianos defence it holds a tuning at A-440 and after not being tuned for at least a decade, probably longer, it didn't need a pitch raise. My tuner was somewhat impressed with it and despite its issues he feels it is actually doing well considering its age and was probably well taken care of for the majority of its life.

I couldn't get these photos of the insides to imbed and I can't remember how to upload them to piano world so I'll just link them:

[img:center]http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=92846&l=8f725ba8cf&id=100000602121858[/img]

[img:center]http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=92845&l=ce1a5994e7&id=100000602121858[/img]

[img:center]http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=92848&l=2a19c3ae6d&id=100000602121858 [/img]

If you think about it. Some of these pianos are like the bosendorfer uprights of their day. Expensive and nice!

Still all over your upright little blue engine!

I gotta throw my 2 cents worth in here.... there were more pianos made (& sold) per year in the US in the 1900 to 1930's than there are now. Watch Craigslist, and think of how many $150 old uprights there are.... THOUSANDS! Now, assume you are a person that is wanting to give your child the gift of a musical education, and you want him/her to take lessons, and stick with it. Now, imagine getting one of these "free" or "nearly free" instruments... paying a mover $200 to $400 to move it to your home... having a tech check it out, do 1 to 3 pitch raisings and a tuning (because MOST haven't been tuned in DECADES) Well, you've got a thousand bucks or close invested in something that still isn't a viable instrument. The child will most assuredly lose interest, or at best, be limited in advancing their musical ability and expression with this instrument. Now... once the child quits, then the piano sits... until it is listed on Craigslist as a "pampered, gorgeous upright" for only $150. Then, the cycle starts again. All the while, we have a HUGE percentage of our piano dealers going out of business. Why? Well, some of the consumers here would have you believe that it is because they charge too much, have bad ethics, don't display the final price without negotiation, or many many other reasons. (I will add, some points may be valid ones) But... MOST piano dealers that go out of business are doing so because of a lack of sales. In my opinion, (and I can't prove it, but it makes sense) piano dealers lose a HUGE amount of sales because of people buying these older, inferior, non working piano shaped objects from the damp, moldy basements of folks that haven't had it serviced in 30+ years. Help me out here, fellow retailers.... how many times has a customer came in and stated that they wanted to find a "good used piano for a few hundred bucks?" When you have nothing anywhere near that in the store, they turn around, leave, and hit the internet. There will ALWAYS be piano dealers, but if you look at the sheer numbers of piano stores, and PIANO MANUFACTURERS which have went belly up since the late 1970's, you begin to wonder if it is possible that this industry will no longer be economically feasible for most involved in the business. (Lets face it... there aren't a lot of high school seniors that are aspiring to become piano store owners... sadly, my son isn't) For purely puritanesque reasons, I say lets fill every landfill with every old clunker we can find! It will help the piano industry, and musical education in general in the long run! Call it musical Darwinism!

Dan, based upon your observations, I would suggest that a part of the piano dealer's problems is a lack of education of the consumer: dealers should be educating people that a $150 Craigslist piano is a bad deal (if that is what you believe). My guess is that someone buying a piano for $150 isn't the same buyer of a $3,000 to $5,000 new piano. More likely the $150 piano sales are eatting into electronic keyboard sales, if any market is being effected.

Maybe one issue is that people in the USA (and probably other Western countries as well) are sick and tired of buying cheap Chinese and Far Eastern goods of apparent inferior quality. Again, those buying the Craigslist pianos are limited in their choices of new pianos: unless they are going spend the big bucks to buy a Steinway or a European made piano. Their only choice in acoustic pianos are used ones or Far Eastern made. Personally, I would rather have a rebuilt old American made piano, then a new Chinese piano made in a factory spewing out pollutants, underpaying their workers, and being made as cheap as possible.

I believe that this is the problem today's piano stores are facing: limited access to new affordable merchandise that someone really wants to own. Sure those Pearl Rivers and such look nice on the showroom floor with their high gloss finish and all. But particle board, peel and stick fallboard decals, and overall cheap quality construction cannot compare to the quality of built of a 100 year old piano.

Maybe I am crazy, but a retailer who can sell nicely restored and rebuilt pianos which are 100 years old should do better than competing to sell those lowest price new pianos. A buyer cannot price shop rebuilts too easily, and the unqiueness of each instrument gives a dealer the ability to differentiate themselves.

What needs to be developed are less expensive rebuilding techniques and stratergies. I know what is involved in rebuilding and refinishing a piano, it is a tremendous amount of work. Too much work. Methods need to be developed to make the job quicker, less expensive and more profitable for the rebuilder. Unless less expensive restoration techniques are developed, my guess is that we will see shipping containers full of old painos being shipped to China. Chinese workers will be rebuild and refinish them, and then they will be shipped back to the country of origin of the pianos to be sold.

My prediction is that all those old pianos that need restoration and refinishing is the mother lode waiting to be mined in the future.

Thrust!


Parry!!


And the beat goes on.

Have a good one. Chuck Behm

Yes, there were. I'm not sure if accurate industry statistics can be found but, according to passages recorded in the book Piano Tone Building, approximately 300,000 pianos per year were being built during the first three decades of the 20th century. Until approximately 1920 all but about 8,000 (per year) of these were uprights or upright/players. According to the manufacturers of the day these pianos had a life expectancy of approximately 25 to 30 years.





I've been reading this thread with some interest. And with a variety of conflicting thoughts and emotions. On one hand I've been a rebuilder for something over 40 years. It's how I got started in the business. As such I have great admiration and respect for the work of some of those manufacturers cranking out those 300,000 pianos per year back in the early part of the 20th century. It was a formidable achievement by anybodies standards.

On the other hand I've also been a dealer. And I now spend a considerable amount of time in factories as a design and manufacturing consultant. So I also have a vested interest in seeing the piano industry as we know it survive.

I, too, have a hard time seeing some of those wonderful old pianos—both uprights and grands—heading for the land fill. But increasingly it's only some of them that I feel bad about. Let's face it, out of those 300,000 instruments being built every year how many were really great instruments and how many were mediocre (at best) pianos built to the cheapest possible price with who knows how many corners being cut along the way to that cheap price?

As I write this our shop has just completed rebuilding a wonderful old 55” (140 cm) Bush & Lane upright and we've started work on another. I'll happily set the piano that is now finished next to any new vertical piano of any size by any maker. I'm confident that most pianists would pick the old B&L as the superior musical instrument. The action is responsive and precise; the keys are covered with their original ivories. It has a wonderfully solid bass with a clarity and openness that will put many 180 to 185 cm (5' 11” to 6' 1”) grands to shame. Its bass-to-tenor crossover is (now—with a little scaling help) smooth and virtually transparent. It has a wonderfully dynamic mid range; it's warm and lush at pianissimo, strong and bright at forte. It has a bright and clear treble that avoids the harshness so common in new pianos.

So, what's not to like? Well, it cost $8,000 to get it there. It was a stock piano that we sold for $500 (which is what we allowed for it on trade) and then rebuilt it for $7,500. Fortunately the soundboard and bridges were in excellent condition (a common trait of B&L pianos) and we did nothing to the finish (the new owners wanted the original look). If the piano had required a new soundboard, extensive bridge work and refinishing the cost would easily have doubled. Still, when compared to the cost of a new piano capable of even remotely comparable performance, this cost is quite reasonable.

I love being able to rebuild pianos of this caliber, putting them back into service for generations to come. And I do expect this old B&L to go on, given reasonable care, hopefully, into the next century. The thing is, though, it wasn't cheap giving it that new life. This is not just “fixing it up for the kids to take lessons on.”

It's important, I think to remember that this was not a cheap piano when it was originally built back in 1916. It was well designed (for its day), well made and expensive. As were the Chickerings, Knabes, Mason & Hamlins, Baldwins and that wonderful host of other, superbly crafted pianos that come so readily to mind when we have these discussions. The problem, of course, is that many—probably a significant majority—of those 300,000 pianos being built each year were neither designed nor built to these standards. Writers of the day complained that far too many manufacturers were taking the easy road and simply copying some competitor's successful designs, often doing so poorly, and then cranking out en masse whatever they thought would sell. (Can anyone think of a modern corollary? I certainly can!)

So, while I certainly agree that there are many century old instruments worthy of our most careful and loving efforts at salvage and restoration I also wonder about the far greater number that were, at best, cheap and mediocre. These are the ones that so often end up on Craig's List as Dan has described. These are the pianos that are purchased for $150, moved for another $450 and then, only after the the thing has been purchased and moved, are we called to “give it a quick tune-up.” And these are the ones that, when the technician arrives in the home and finds basically a worn out wreck of a piano is asked to just “fix up and get working so the kids can take lessons.”

When I started out in this business this once over lightly approach was somewhat more realistic. But, like me, these pianos are now 40+ years older. And, like me, not all of them have aged gracefully. Increasingly my response to this runs something like, “Before I start on this work am I to understand that when your daughter is learning to drive you're going to go out to Joe Schmuck's Discount Car Emporium and purchase the cheapest clunker you can for find? What does it matter that the steering is loose, the shocks are shot, the tires bald and the brakes don't work—after all, it's just for her to practice on.” Regardless the answer I am now, more often than not declining to work on these things. I find myself condemning these old clunkers with increasing regularity.

And, yes, it's a value judgment. I look them over and try to determine its potential value and performance if it were rebuilt. If I end up believing the owners would be better off junking the old piano and buying something new, I tell them so. And then—now as a matter of ethics—I refuse to patch up the old clunker just this one more time. I will help them dispose of the poor old thing. I will help them find another, better and more reasonably performing piano. I will do anything except perpetuate an old wreck for another generation.

For those increasingly rare but beautiful gems I find I go out of my way to encourage the owners to keep them and restore them. Or help them find new homes with folks who will have this done and who really want their music and history in this fashion. This is easier to do if the cabinetry is particularly spectacular. Or even it it just has really nice veneer. But even without these advantages there are many gems in the rough—such as this B&L we've just finished—that don't look particularly great but have the very real potential to become once again great instruments. The rest I condemn and it matters not to me that the folks have just paid $150 for the thing and have just had it moved for another $450. They should have had the piano professionally evaluated first. And they usually know this.

It also doesn't matter to me if the once mediocre new piano that has now become the mediocre old clunker has just had $2,000 of cheap and shoddy work done to it. If it was a lousy design that was cheaply built to begin with the best that can be expected today after even the most conscientious rebuilding is a rebuilt lousy design that was originally very cheaply built. It may all work OK but the owners would have been much better off dumping the clunker and purchasing a decent new piano.

Yes, there are a number of problems with the status quo. Dan has outlined them in his post. With a rather broad brush, to be sure, but there is a lot of truth in what he writes. I think it is way past time that piano technicians started looking at these things with less romance and with more pragmatism. The public as well but it has to start, I think, with the technical community. To be sure, there have been some really great pianos built over the years and we should do everything possible to preserve these. But the sad fact is that this does not include all of the old pianos ever built. I personally think it is time we recognized and accepted that reality. By all means let's work to save the great ones; maybe even a few of the merely good ones. But let us finally and firmly give up the junk.

ddf

Dan, I really liked your post, but next time, please break it up into paragraphs!

I once played a bush and lane piano on craigslist for $200. It said Pompeii in the inside

I think the piano was a bad impression on the company. I found it horrible. It was in fairly bad condition. Cabinet splattered with paint. Action sloppy and had close to no tone at all.

:S The person never sold the piano it was sooo bad! Never seen another B&L since.

The problem is that the pianos that are restored that we like were the one in a hundred that was worth restoring. You see how good it look all pretty again and say whouldn't it be nice if we could fix the other 99? No. The guy who did the work was able to pick and choose which to restore and which to leave alone.

The problem is that that is simply no market. The number of people who even want a piano will not accommodate the number of old pianos.

That said, very few of then should go in a dump or be burned for fire wood. In most cases the wood can be re-used for any number of projects. Many hobbyist wood workers would just love to have the case from an old upright sawed up and stacked flat. It's mostly high quality wood. People in China are buying scrap matel for high enough prices that there is a demand for the steel frames. They don't have to go into dumps

I just dismanteled an old Hanmmond organ, no not a B3. It was not worth fixing. The parts however are worth more then the organ. They will all be used in varius vacume tube powered audio projects.

Del great post

First of all there are not many out there doing high end upright restorations for resale. They are mostly family heirlooms that customers want to pass down.

In our shop of the 12000 names of pianos in the Pierce atlas we work on perhaps 20 of those brands. The other we walk away from.

In the book by Wayne Kelly Downright Upright The History of the Canadian Piano Industry he writes.
80% of the old uprights should be replaced.
18% are rebuildable.
2% are good as they are.
It's that 2% I look to get my hands on and hope to rebuild although the other 18% are still pretty good.

I agree purchasing a $200.00 upright on Craigslist is not the way to go, but is a family wants to have a piano rebuilt. I'm all for it as long as they know they will spend more than they will be able to sell it for, if the need arises.

For most, they are not concerned with resale.

BTW did you know you can have a 1965 Mustang rebuilt and spend more money on it, that it will be worth?

I don't believe the $200.00 Craigslist pianos are killing the retailers.

When someone buys a new piano, they are not going to get full resale value selling it, right?
When you get a nice dinner, do you have any resale after-value?

I can only add that in our case we are very grateful to the craftsman who rebuilt 1907 Henry Herbert 4'8" grand ~10 years ago perhaps against the common sense of rebuilding (small size, relatively simple case).
There is a market for rebuilds!
(I hope our dealer can cheerfully attest to that! :))

P.S. Any info on Henry Herbert grands? I could not find any and tried to ask here (well, at least strikes the uniqueness cord )

I did read this book some years back but I had forgotten that. From experience I'd say his percentages are about right.



Not by themselves, no. But they certainly are a strong contributing factor. As the middle class shrinks it leaves more folks with limited resources. Once—usually out of ignorance, sometimes on the advice of a “tooner” somewhere—they have spent a few hundred or a thousand or two on a clunker that can't reasonably be made into a decent musical instrument they simply give it up. They lack both the will and the funds to start over.

The result is doubly sad: most often the kids miss the opportunity to discover music and a dealer somewhere has missed the opportunity to sell a good piano—whether that be used or new on is irrelevant to this discussion. The only ones benefiting from these transactions are the ones selling the piano (they got rid of a clunker without having to pay to have it hauled away) and the movers (who, I suppose, might have been paid anyway to haul the clunker away).

ddf