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This type of conversation may be the ONLY way many teachers (and many students) improve their performance.

Some have talked about how public a job piano teaching is, but I have to say I see a different side to it.

The actual teaching process is one-on-one, in private. The opportunity to watch an experienced (or inexperienced) teacher work and learn from them, or the opportunity to have a mentor sit in on your lessons and critique how you do them would be vanishingly rare. Some may never have seen anybody teach except for their own teacher when they were a student.

This is true to some extent for other types of teachers, though classroom teachers do a student teaching placement, and their peers have a general awareness of what goes on in the building. Piano teaching is more solitary than that.

Seems to me sage advice from experienced teachers like john is a learning opportunity that can only come from a forum.

A few decades back I was a grad student in clinical psychology. That course in counseling techniques was mandatory. Of course we had the textbooks and some role play in the classroom, but most of the learning was from client sessions. Observed clients sessions! - sometimes you had another therapist in the room, sometimes watching through a mirror, but always with the tape recorder running. Listening to those tapes in class, and having them dissected by the teacher and classmates was one of the most stressful experiences I can remember. But it would be pretty hard to improve without it.

This is a comment about the entire subject of interviews with teachers, parents, students:

If each person is operating from a place of honesty and integrity as to the conditions under which the child student will be taught, you have a team of support and vision working collaboratively together. You have a foundation.

If you have one of the people on this team who is not really interested, has little to offer, no values or guidelines as to how to accomplish our goals, you are working on a quick-sand base.

When people show us by their behavior or attitudes that there will be some problem areas in communication or mutual respect for each other, it may persuade the teacher that there is not enough positive in the situation to work with this student. This would be obvious to me when a base of operations would be non-existant. Mother has such a busy schedule something else takes priority over keeping the appointment, say a hair coloring appointment, son doesn't want to practice, someone shows a temper or a child answers back to the parent and a tug of war starts in my presence. Dysfunction enters the picture and rears it's ugly head again and again to sabotage what could have been a wonderful experience in music making.

I can only say, put your best foot forward when interviewing with a teacher. When too many warning signs show up in the interview, many piano teachers are going to think twice about accepting the student. We want fully vested clients who fit the profile of a piano student, not those who self-sabotage and self-destruct and take up copious time and energy in dealing with them.

As to how the interview goes with adults, same comments apply, just simplified by the fact that the principles are speaking face to face and the collaborative team is the two people.

Honesty and intregity will never get you in trouble as these things along with good communication and a willing piano student will get you where you hope to someday reach your musical goals.

If you have a dream in music, your teacher is the custodian of your dream. If you believe that you are going to have a good time in piano lessons, you are likely to to fulfill your destiny.

"Um - Jeff is quoting Betty and not me - right Jeff?"

Yes, Keystring, quite right. 'Heard' you too, though.

I don't know why, but this discussion reminds me of something my mom said, years ago, about my granddad's wife: "I made up my mind," she remarked, "that I was not going to fight with my mother-in-law, no matter what kind of fool thing she said. It hasn't been easy, but I've stuck to it."

It was remarkably sensible, and I've tried to take a lesson... I admit, with limited success.

Great quote!!!!
+1, Jeff!

Written completely from the point of view of a teacher interviewing a student. I think one could switch the words "teacher" and "student" in these paragraphs and get an equally appropriate advice for teachers.

This is very true, pianoloverus.

On the other hand, piano students don't tend to have a lot of experience in choosing piano teachers, so they might not know how to recognise whether a piano teacher fits the profile of a piano teacher, let alone a piano teacher who will deliver the kinds of learning experience the student is keen to have. And on the whole piano teachers tend to have both vested interests, as well as professional expertise that assists them in not self-sabotaging the lessons (just as a mechanic has a vested interest in repairing a car so that it won't burst into flames upon leaving the garage). Students, by way of not knowing what path lies ahead, sometimes make the route a little more convoluted for themselves than it might otherwise be.

Further than that, when a teacher decides to not accept a student this makes a very marginal difference in the content of the teacher's week. They may have 36 students already, and one more does not even represent a 3% change in their working week, and due to the structure of taxes probably a 2% change in income. For a student, however, having a teacher decide to not go ahead means that they are still 100% searching for a teacher.

The situations are not commensurate, although of course, the interview is about both parties engaging in some due diligence before engaging in a course of tuition.

Not only experience, but also knowledge. I think that we need to become informed before even contacting a piano teacher. If this is true, how do we become informed enough to make intelligent decisions?

All kinds of people teach piano. Tales of transfer students tell us that the good car mechanic is not everywhere. The new teacher's discerning eye and ear will quickly see that the student playing a few pieces impressively is lacking major basic skills, but the parent will have been fooled for a long time because this looks like progress. A careful teacher might even be rejected because this other one seems to "progress faster" - glitzier pieces, fast climb through grades - how can we tell? And how fair is that to teachers who don't set out to impress but to teach? In that light I think we do need to become informed precisely for the reason you state.

Our local teachers association has a referral service. They know the teachers and quite a bit about reputations and skills. They know those who specialize, who's new, who has years of experience, which ones have students winning competitions, etc. They will be able to filter for you based on what you are looking for.

Many local associations have something similar. There is also a publication available for parents from MTNA. www.mtna.org

Perhaps this should be a new topic (?) but for now I am highlighting this part because it goes back to what I was writing about. I wrote that we parents/students need to be informed beforehand, and you are trying to answer this. In the above scenario maybe I am looking for a teacher whose students win competitions, and there is a place where I can find this. But should I be looking for such a teacher? Should winning competitions be my criterion? "Being informed" means having an idea of what the criteria probably should be, or something of that nature.

Supposing that I assume that winning competitions is a sign of a good teacher. Should I not first find out what learning piano is about, what good teaching might encompass? That is what I meant by being informed. In my previous example, a transfer student come in who play a few pieces very well - he might be a competition winner. But the new teacher quickly sees that this student has been given very few of the tools such as learning to read music. If I am an informed parent, I will know that note reading is important. If I am not informed, I can be taken in. I may very well look for competition winners and come upon that first teacher. I don't know if I'm being clear.

Keystring, you are hitting on such an important aspect of the whole piano education process: how can parents without a background in music possibly know what to look for in a teacher or how to be of maximum assistance as the lessons proceed?

I had a student once whose family had no idea what I was referring to when I discussed 'practicing', and they smiled and nodded, and it took about four weeks of quite strange conversations and detailed demonstrations before they really understood what their daughter needed to do between lessons. And this was made all the more difficult because it seemed to the parents that this much effort was surely only required if you were taking music 'seriously'.

I think there is a big need for appropriate resources for parents to turn to for simple explanation of what piano lessons might involve, what they might deliver, what students need to be doing between lessons, what kinds of outcomes will be achieved with which kind of lessons, and so very much more. Teachers will agree that we rarely have problems with the children of families with a culture of learning musical instruments: everyone knows, understands and agrees on what needs to be done to make any progress (no matter what the goal). This doesn't mean that these children necessarily make the best progress, simply that there is a great deal of clarity in the communication process.

I'm not aware of any fabulous website or book to recommend, but the MTNA link sounds promising!

From the MTNA website:

Choosing a Music Teacher Brochure
This small brochure is packed with information about choosing an appropriate, qualified music teacher.

Elissa, if I am so late in responding it is because this is so big and so important that one can get lost in it. But you have summarized it and given a teacher perspective.

Just so I don't mislead unintentionally: I'm not seeking advice personally as a parent considering music lessons for a child, but I am concerned and interested for various reasons. My son is a young adult who was a late starter on a different instrument and subsequently entered music studies, and we have since talked about these things on and off. I am an adult student who began lessons a few years after him, but had to break off lessons temporarily. I am also looking to the past in retrospect for when lessons are resumed in the future, so to say. But this thread is about parents and children. In that light, there are things that I wish I had known then. Communication is no. 1.

Thank you, Minniemay. That is indeed a good start.

Where I would like to see us better educated, so that we can choose a teacher and also work better with that teacher, I think would involve understanding generally what it is about. This would help us use what is in the Brochure as well. I will try to explain:

In the brochure it is advised that we ask about:

- professional & educational experience. Do I know which are relevant and necessary? It does tell me that this teacher is taking her work seriously enough to have made an effort. "Professional development" indicates the same.
- studio policy. This will help me comply with house rules.
- instructional material: Unless I have a background, I have no way of assessing the appropriateness of this.
- kinds of music: If my goal is a particular genre. yes
- technology - whether the teacher uses a computer, software. Um? I trust that the teacher will use those resources that he/she deems appropriate. I don't know what is necessary, so I cannot tell anything from that information.

Unless I know something about music study, getting answers to these questions doesn't tell me much. I'm thinking that we need to be informed at a stage before this. I should have an idea of what my goals are, and for that there should be an idea of what learning an instrument is about. Maybe have a rough idea of what it entails: note reading, technique, understanding elements of music, regular guided practice. Then I can listen intelligently and ask intelligent questions. Being informed doesn't mean that I believe that methodology X and approach Y will do it (the other danger) and then shop for a teacher who uses them. It means that I can recognize that the teacher is aiming toward well rounded growth, or similar things. How do we get there before booking any interview?

I'd be tempted to ask what the teacher's goals, philosophies, and expectations are, and then listen carefully. I might express my own goals and be prepared to have them tweaked. If I'm observing a lesson I might want to be able to ask about what I've seen. The teacher will be guiding both the child, and me in my guiding role. But if I know nothing it may be hard to even understand that part. Like Elissa describes. I need to be sufficiently informed that I can make head or tail of what is happening in that interview. I was really impressed when my son's teacher used the word "dynamics" - such a big music word - I doubt he had any idea of that impression.

Teachers: Are there things you would like us to be informed about before we come to an interview? Do you want us to put some research and thought into it before we show up? Or do you prefer that we don't, since it might get in the way? One obvious complaint I've seen is failure to read an on-line explanation by a teacher of her philosophy & policies. No research needed in that one.

This site has quite a few thoughts on the subject from all sides: parent responsibility, student responsibility, and teacher responsibility. Can this work in conjunction with the MTNA site? Does anything exist in Australia of this nature (MTNA or other), btw?

Martha Beth Lewis - Piano Home Page

(I'll shut up and lurk, now)

Each state has its own music teachers' association. The one I'm familiar with holds workshops and seminars, offers scholarships, puts out a magazine and lists accredited teachers. There's also ASME (Aus society for music education) which is not just geared towards instrumental instruction.

There's no national organisation here is Australia, and one state's music teachers' association might be amazing, while another's is quite low-key. There are great state level conferences held bi-annually in some states, and every two years there is an Australasian Piano Pedagogy Conference.

But a big difference between North America and Australia is that Piano Pedagogy degrees from universities are a very recent development (and still not widely available), so most established piano teachers have qualifications from the Australian Music Examination Board or Trinity College London, or if they have migrated from somewhere else, from the Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music; university qualifications just weren't being offered last century.

In New Zealand there is a national organisation for music teachers that was set up by decree of the parliament, and my impression is that it is easier for parents with no background in music to hook up with 'good' teachers in that lightly regulated environment than in a culture where anyone who can play Piano Man or Fur Elise can set themselves up as a teacher......

Even university degrees in performance are relatively new here. Even 40 years ago performance students went to a conservatorium and musicology/composition students to university. Performance courses at conservatoria had a pedagogy component though, I believe.

(where I am, anyway...)

I think I should have phrased that last question differently. In view of the last thing currently being discussed, might there be some central place in some countries (incl. Australia) that would advise parents / prospective students so that they could approach teachers and interviews in an informed manner? The MTNA seems to do that to some degree in the U.S. which is why I grabbed at the name.

For the two years that I have been on PW, the frustrations between teachers and parents are frequently voiced. Some is attitude and motivation of course, but surely being informed is part of the equation. What kinds of expectations do we come in with, what have we pictured, etc?

I hear what you're saying, keystring. As Elissa says, there is no national registration for piano teachers here in Australia. There are, however, accreditation processes, mainly run by the aformentioned Music Teachers' Associations. (No adequate central one, however, as we tend to be a bit more state-oriented in some ways, probably because of issues like distance, different education systems in each state, etc.) Where I am people can get good information from the MTA - it isn't hard to find, if you know to even look!

Yes, but I think keystring's point is well-made: how can parents better educate themselves about musical education?

And there's no one good place to turn.

Maybe I'll write a book?!

That would be great!