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#1368658 - 02/08/10 01:23 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: edt]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19647
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: edt
I understand where lindar is coming from. I used to have these sorts of questions.....
I still ask the same sorts of questions, ones that don't seem to make sense, but now I ask them about jazz chords, like why do there have to be tensions in every single chord....

Why DO there have to be tensions in every single chord? ha

P.S. I didn't know that was sort of a rule, but I can see that it could be.
Including that once in a while a chord doesn't have tension -- and then that becomes the tension. smile


Edited by Mark_C (02/08/10 02:03 PM)
Edit Reason: typo corrected
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#1368672 - 02/08/10 01:38 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: Mark_C]
edt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 210
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: edt
like why do there have to be tensions in every single chord....

Why DO there have to be tensions in every single chord? ha

P.S. I didn't know that was sort of a rule, but I can't see that it could be.
Including that once in a while a chord doesn't have tension -- and then that becomes the tension. smile


exactly. Right now I don't know enough about jazz tensions to even ask the right questions. I know I should be asking some other question, but I say "tensions" because I see them and I think to myself "What's wrong with a triad?"

By the time I know enough to ask the right question I won't need to ask it.

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#1368693 - 02/08/10 02:04 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: edt]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19647
Loc: New York
(BTW.....good job not getting thrown by my typo......I meant I CAN see that it could be. You got it anyway.) smile
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#1368776 - 02/08/10 04:22 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: LindaR]
ChopinAddict Offline
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Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6095
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
May this explanation helps?
There are also other "free" lessons....
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Music is my best friend.


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#1368818 - 02/08/10 05:33 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: ChopinAddict]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
I agree with the puppies/kittens theory.
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Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1368833 - 02/08/10 05:48 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: Elissa Milne]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6095
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
There was a similar discussion on another board. They called it the "tea/coffee" theory...
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#1368936 - 02/08/10 07:55 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: ChopinAddict]
stores Offline
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Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
You know I just read through most of the posts in this thread and I STILL don't know what the hell she was asking. LOL. I thought, at first, that Cathy had nailed it and figured maybe she'd had more coffee than I today or something, but then read back over it again, and honestly, I'm still confused about what she was asking for. Apparently, something got through to her, but if it did, then she's either a LOT more confused than I am, or tremendously more intelligent. LOL.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1368997 - 02/08/10 09:03 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: stores]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19647
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: stores
You know I just read through most of the posts in this thread and I STILL don't know what the hell she was asking.

me2

Quote:
.....I thought, at first, that Cathy had nailed it.....

I never thought for a second that anyone came close to nailing it. We were just talking without knowing what we were trying to answer.
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1369028 - 02/08/10 09:32 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: Mark_C]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
And without a response with substance from Linda we will never know what we were trying to answer.
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#1369042 - 02/08/10 09:48 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: Elissa Milne]
Mark_C Online   content
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Registered: 11/11/09
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We shouldn't expect or pressure her to say any more. IMO it was clear pretty quickly that we were giving info on a much more advanced level than what she was asking. Really we were talking more to ourselves than to her. I think she did the best she could at asking what she was wondering about.
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1369097 - 02/08/10 11:28 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: Mark_C]
ChopinAddict Offline
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Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6095
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
I suppose most of us thought she was confused about major and minor scales, that's why we tried to provide an explanation of major and minor scales, although her question per se was not clear....
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#1369235 - 02/09/10 05:41 AM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: Mark_C]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Hey Linda
Yours is a technical question and no technical question is too weird for PW. I’ve asked weird questions myself e.g. why is a Bach prelude not a fugue, and I received an awesome answer.
So continue asking your questions.
One of the beautiful things about piano is its mathematical structure imo. There are rules which make sense and cannot be broken. A major scale will always be structured in the same way, and a minor scale will always be structured in one of three ways.
I did really badly at Accounting at Uni because I always asked "why" e.g. “Why is an asset a debit ?”, “Why is a liability a credit ?”

So maybe you just have to accept that someone has to put a label on various combinations of tone, semitone structures. Three of these structures are called minor.

You obviously think a lot about the structure of scales which is great. In this way, you will get a lot more out of them than just playing them blindly.

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#1369260 - 02/09/10 07:20 AM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: Mark_C]
TrapperJohn Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 3550
Loc: Chocolatetown, USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: John Frank
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Linda, for the love of God, tell us if you have any idea what anyone here is talking about!

For the love of God I swear she doesn't care...
But, I see what she's asking - it should be obvious to even the most casual observer - she's asking a question similar to this:
"Why isn't a young dog called a kitten instead of a puppy?"....

C'mon. smile
I don't think that's quite fair, although I must admit I was tempted to write some funny stuff too.


There you go - you should have - that's what we need here - more funny stuff (to compliment the really "funny stuff" in the OP) laugh

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
She has some question in mind, and yes, it's probably a non-question question, but I think sometimes we probably all have some of those.....


Well, speak for yourself about that - my questions are always question questions, as opposed to "non-question questions" (which require non-answer answers) - but a non-question question is really a statement in disguise, and the statement made in the OP was "I'm bored and feeling kinda snarky, so I think I'll post a really nonsensical question here to see if I can take advantage of the good people here and how many I can get to take it seriously and respond sincerly to it - and if I'm lucky maybe I can even get a little heated debate going about it!"

It's called the fine art of deliberate agitation.

JF

P.S. It wouldn't surprise me at all if "she" wasn't a she...
_________________________
Every difficulty slurred over will be a ghost to disturb your repose later on. Frederic Chopin

Current favorite bumper sticker: Wag more, bark less.

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#1369262 - 02/09/10 07:22 AM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: TrapperJohn]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
OMG. A hermaphrodite.
_________________________
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Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1369332 - 02/09/10 09:48 AM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: TrapperJohn]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: John Frank
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: John Frank
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne






Originally Posted By: Mark_C


but a non-question question is really a statement in disguise, and the statement made in the OP was "I'm bored and feeling kinda snarky, so I think I'll post a really nonsensical question here to see if I can take advantage of the good people here and how many I can get to take it seriously and respond sincerly to it - and if I'm lucky maybe I can even get a little heated debate going about it!"

It's called the fine art of deliberate agitation.

JF

P.S. It wouldn't surprise me at all if "she" wasn't a she...





How, in the world, did you get all of that out of her post? I didn't view it as snarky at all. I didn't (and still don't) understand what the heck she was asking, but reading "bored and snarky" between the lines, I think, MIGHT be going a bit far (God knows it wouldn't be the first time that intent was grossly misinterpreted in the forums). Who knows...you may be right and I may know nothing.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1369345 - 02/09/10 09:59 AM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: TrapperJohn]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11561
Loc: Canada
If the OP was genuine in her question, then the speculations about ulterior motives, or judgment of the question itself, will be embarrassing. The state of affairs world wide (apparently) suggests that in music there is an illiteracy as great as there was in the Dark Ages. Many of us are groping, or have just left behind groping. It is inevitable that some questions will seem preposterous yet is that the person you want to drive away? A person can be in such a place that they simply cannot formulate anything that will be familiar. The idea of commenting on the poster rather than the question bothers me. I am a moderator elsewhere and know how people are affected since they write in to me in that capacity. It is amazing how we can misjudge each other.

About puppies and kittens: If that question were actually asked by a child, then he is learning how his society categorizes and organizes thought. He is actually thinking about things, which is a good thing. Those who dismiss the question might be well advised to start thinking about their language all over again, and learn new things. Puppies and kittens, as "tiny child-animals" are more similar to each other than they are to their parents. So why isn't there a "tiny child-animal" word? Such questions allow a child to begin entering abstract concepts which he will later use: grammar, algebra, whatnot.

The question posed here is roughly: why are major and minor scales the way they are, and why are there different kinds of minor scales (officially)? Personally I think that's more productive than just memorizing and knowing that it is as it is as it is. Maybe I'm wrong. I asked the same question. The difference is that I also explored music by listening and hearing what that did.

I also imagine that a good teacher who has a thorough understanding of music would lead things in such a way that deeper understanding starts to emerge. I'd think that such a teacher might even set things up in such a way that questions would arise, and to make the student think? Is it good to take things for granted?

Lest someone thinks I'm naive (more than I normally am, anyway) - yes, we could have been set up, etc. But what's the harm in exploring the question? Maybe somebody could benefit. It's good exercise.

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#1369391 - 02/09/10 11:05 AM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: keystring]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19647
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: keystring
....The question posed here is roughly: why are major and minor scales the way they are, and why are there different kinds of minor scales (officially)?....

Good post except for this quoted portion, which we have no idea whatsoever whether it is so. smile
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#1369605 - 02/09/10 04:01 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: Mark_C]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6095
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
What about this tutorial ? I just saw a link to these lessons in another thread...
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Music is my best friend.


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#1373705 - 02/14/10 03:23 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: Mark_C]
LindaR Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 160
Loc: Northern California
Thank you wikipedia for the information. Roughly, the minor is an inverse of the major scale. I wanted to answer the question... How are the diatonic minor and major related? And I was thinking, Why is their no half tone between b and c and e and f? And I wanted an answer besides, "because its a diatonic scale." Would it be more elegant for an octave to be divided 7.5 times or six and six rather than seven and five, etc. Then thanks to answers at yahoo I found out that an OCTAVE (**) is divided 24 times in Arabic music. I didn't know that. I don't think I'm going to answer anymore posts on this topic. Thanks. smile

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#1373755 - 02/14/10 04:28 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: LindaR]
LindaR Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 160
Loc: Northern California
..Or even 14 or 16 with overlapping octaves. Just so that it follows fundamentals of physics sound and then let the medium be the variable. smirk

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#1377487 - 02/18/10 04:28 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: LindaR]
edt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 210
there are WAAAY more than just 3 minor scales, for instance, arabian minor, gypsy minor, romanian minor, indian minor, dorian minor, phrygian minor, aeoloian minor, locrian minor, ascending minor, descending minor, harmonic, natural, phrygian natural 6 minor, locrian natural 2 minor, blues minor, etc etc

linda your question I think can go really deep into musical theory history, practice, tradition

I have a question just like yours. Why is it that common practice insists that the ascending and descending melodic minors are different, yet when I read a piece by Bach he always violates these melodic rules.

Is he violating the rules on ascending minor and descending minor on purpose to give the music more interest or is this "ascending/descending" rule like a speed limit, only observed in theory but never in practice.


Edited by edt (02/18/10 04:35 PM)

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#1377491 - 02/18/10 04:42 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: edt]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Music theory is, on the whole, descriptive not prescriptive, so the idea that composers 'break the rules' gets it all the wrong way about. Not surprising after more than 100 years of theory examinations where there is 'right' way to pass the exam (somewhat tangental to the right way to compose interesting music).

But composers do what they do and theorists come by afterwards and try to make sense of what made the composition 'work'. Music theory struggles to account for what makes music 'work' in the 20th and 21st centuries: it's much better (in fact best) at accounting for the way music worked in the Classical period (mid to late 18th century western European composed music).
_________________________
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#1377686 - 02/18/10 10:19 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: edt]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19647
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: edt
.....I have a question just like yours. Why is it that common practice insists that the ascending and descending melodic minors are different, yet when I read a piece by Bach he always violates these melodic rules.....

He's not "violating" anything.
When he does that, it's just not the melodic minor, that's all.

Maybe are you thinking that "melodic minor" means it's the scale that has to be used for melodies?
It's not -- it's just a name.
And maybe a BAD name, because it can lead to this kind of confusion.
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#1378102 - 02/19/10 12:18 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: Mark_C]
edt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 210
i understand the purpose of the melodic minor is that for the voice leading principles decrease the +2 gap between 6-7 on the way up and since the tonal #7 leads to the tonic that has to be left in, and when descending, since you start on the tonic there is no pull, so you can start on 7 instead of #7, and in counterpoint, fugues especially, each voice should have a melody, I understand all that.

So I go looking for these voices in bach and I see, yes, bach tries to never use the +2 gap you won't find the augmented 2 descending or ascending, yet, typically bach ascends and descend the same way, so I'm left wondering, how is this a rule?

I don't necessarily want answers, I'm just explaining that I don't yet know enough of music theory to figure out how it all works together. Maybe once I finish reading this book on voice leading I'll understand it.


Edited by edt (02/19/10 12:19 PM)

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#1378118 - 02/19/10 12:32 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: edt]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19647
Loc: New York
That's sort of what the melodic minor is, and in a way I guess we could say that is its "purpose," sort of.

But it's not a rule, and failing to use it in any given instance doesn't violate anything.

Why do you keep thinking it's a "rule"? Do you not believe that it isn't?
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#1378171 - 02/19/10 01:32 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: Mark_C]
edt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 210
lol, i'm not sure how I feel about it.

My main beef is how in classical theory you have different ascending and descending scales but in jazz theory you just use the ascending scale, and if you deviate from it, that's all it is.

Which is to say in jazz you are just as likely to use the descending minor scale while ascending as descending, but in classical . . . theory says you use the descending scale more often descending than ascending, but in practice, I don't don't see it.

I don't like how much the theory of voice leading deviates from practice.

Like this parallel fifths thing. You don't use it because it hides the middle voice, yet bach used parallel fifths all the time.

But I actually understand the parallel fifths thing better because my ear can hear why the rule is as it is. This minor ascending and descending thing I just can't hear right. I think part of it is how in modern music we tend not to use counterpoint as much so I haven't developed a natural feel for this rule.

You can't ascend or descend into an octave because it hides the voice, these are not just description these are "rules" of counterpoint and voice leading.

So yeah I guess I do consider it a "rule" because it is described as a rule in Johann Josef Fux's book "Gradus ad Parnassum."

Of course I know if you follow the rules all the time your music will be stale and boring.


Edited by edt (02/19/10 01:33 PM)

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#1378185 - 02/19/10 01:43 PM Re: Another Theory Question [Re: edt]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19647
Loc: New York
Especially since most of those rules aren't really rules.
They aren't.

Don't worry too much about Fux. ha
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