Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards The DPBSD Project!

dewster,

For the betterment of humanity, I did more investigation on the lack of 'sympathetic resonance' for the Roland HP-307 in the DPBSD test. I figured out the MIDI events to enable it, and modified v1.7 of the DPBSD MIDI file.

A new MP3 with sympathetic resonance, and the modified MIDI file to enable it, are at the website below in case you are interested in analyzing it:

http://wmsar.info/dewster_dpbsd/

For Test #2 your "readme" states "Listen for a brief weak G5 note at the beginning of the test, possibly accompanied by the very faint sound of C1 & C3 & ...etc...". I can clearly hear the resonance of the G5 & C-notes when playing the test on HP-307, but it is very difficult to hear in the MP3 [at least for me]. You'll notice a big difference when the loud C2 is played. I don't know how other tests may or may not be affected.

If you do decide to analyze the file, then please let me know if other problems still persist; I think they were pedal up/down & key up?

NOTE: I suspect there is more to sympathetic resonance than just the 'string resonance' setting in "Piano Designer", especially since there are several parameters related to resonance alone. All parameters were at their 'default' setting, with "Reverb" disabled.

I agree that less amplitude dynamic range is better when playing with headphones for the sake of my hearing, but otherwise I want both timbre and amplitude to have wide dynamic ranges. I don't want to sound like a digitally compressed recording. I want to sound live.

I'm able to hear key down sympathetic resonance in there, though it is fairly subtle.


- Pedal and key noises are missing.
- It passes the pedal down silent replay test.
- It passes the quick pedal partial damping test.

The big thing that's missing is pedal down sympathetic resonance - I'm straining and looking but can't detect any.

Also your levels could be better, the peak is -8.65dB, and the noise floor is around -72dB.

Thanks for your efforts to capture this, the SuperNATURAL piano sound is very promising technology.

dewster
I was reviewing mp3 of Yamaha CP1, and I think you missed something important. It has 5 layers, not 4, and the last layer switch is quite audible, not only visible.
With 50 stretch groups, it seems that CP1 has sample set very similar to CLP380.

Here is the picture with layers switches marked:

But isn't that purely conjecture? I'm interested in the seeing the CLP380 mp3, myself. Anyone got one?

Of course, i'm just guessing. I said "similar", not "the same".

Hmm. I looked at it again very closely and the second layer switch you have marked is really subtle - kind of a judgment call. But, as you said, you can hear the last switch. I'll update the review text - thanks!

Funny too how the CP1 has essentially no timbre change from velocity=1 to velocity=54. And the dynamic range is only 38dB. I guess it makes sense to put more transitions on the higher velocity end, where the piano really start going non-linear.

If anyone is interested, here is a highly compressed version of the CP1 layer test with the amplitude variation removed, so all you hear is timbre variation:

http://www.mediafire.com/?mmdwgzjgnww

What a bullshit. Shame to Yamaha for lying to its customers.

This is why the DPBSD project has BS in the title.

It's technobabble like that that pretty much forced me into doing the project in the first place - at some point I just couldn't take it any more.

EastWest Quantum Leap Goliath Pianos - Triple Review!

Thanks once again to pesk, we have DPBSD MP3s of (count 'em) three EastWest Quantum Leap Goliath Pianos for our analyzing and listening pleasure: the Fazioli F308 2 gig, the Steinway B, and the PMI Bosendorfer 290 - thanks pesk!

First, the things they have in common: None appear to be looped, which is good. But all fail the key down sympathetic resonance test, the brief pedal partial damping test, and the partial pedaling test. All of them have a strange response to the pedal down silent replay test - there is no audible damping during the test (which is good) but the velocity=1 note continues past the end - which should be impossible as no keys or pedals are being held at that point! There are no key up or pedal up/down sounds in any of the pianos, and the velocity layer switches are all quite visible and audible.

In terms of stretching, the Steinway doesn't appear to be stretched, the Fazioli with 82 groups is lightly stretched, and the Bosendorfer with 51 groups is the most stretched. In terms of velocity layer count, the Bosendorfer has 5, the Fazioli has 4, and the Steinway has 3. Seems like some kind of layer count / note stretch trade-off going on there.

The Bosendorfer and Fazioli both have very short note decay times, with the Fazioli bass notes coming to an abrupt stop fairly early. The Steinway has nice long note decays, and is also the only one that passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test. The Bosendorfer has many of its samples marred by audible "clacks" and "thumps".

Reviews below, MP3s and more analysis pics at the share point.


Waveform view of the Fazioli. Note very short bass note decay & truncation.


Spectral pan view of the Bosendorfer. This one is the most stretched of the bunch.


Spectral frequency view of the Steinway, where both layer switches are visible.



----------------------------------------------------
- EastWest Quantum Leap Goliath Fazioli F308 2 gig -
----------------------------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v1.6_ewql_goliath_fazioli_f308_2gig.mp3
- Recorded in Cubase 5, converted to MP3 in Wavelab 6 w/ LAME encoder.
- All settings default except reverb off.
- Recorded by "pesk".
PROS:
- No looping.
- Only a small amount of stretching.
- Stretch distances: 1(x5),2,1(x13),2,1(x10),2,1(x13),2,1(x5),2,1(x6),2,1(x24) = 82 groups.
- 4 velocity layers.
- Velocity switch @ vel=62,96,112.
CONS:
- Fails the pedal down sympathetic resonance test.
- Fails the key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Passes/fails the pedal down silent replay test, no damping during test, but vel=1 note continues past the end!
- Fails the brief pedal partial damping test.
- Fails the partial pedaling test.
- Lowest notes have quite short decay, ~1/2 Pianoteq, truncated.
- Samples have low frequency noise (air conditioner?).
- No key up or pedal up/down sounds.
- Velocity layer switches quite visible and very audible.
OTHER:
- Dynamic range 39dB (vel=1:127).
- MP3 levels: peak @ -1.6dB, noise floor @ -90dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-04-23.


--------------------------------------------
- EastWest Quantum Leap Goliath Steinway B -
--------------------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v1.6_ewql_goliath_steinway_b.mp3
- Recorded in Cubase 5, converted to MP3 in Wavelab 6 w/ LAME encoder.
- All settings default except reverb off.
- Recorded by "pesk".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test.
- No looping.
- Nice long decays on the order of Pianoteq (except for C1 which is a bit short).
- No obvious stretching.
- 3 velocity layers.
- Velocity switch @ vel=76,114.
CONS:
- Fails the key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Passes/fails the pedal down silent replay test, no damping during test, but vel=1 note continues past the end!
- Fails the brief pedal partial damping test.
- Fails the partial pedaling test.
- No key up or pedal up/down sounds.
- Velocity layer switches quite visible and very audible.
OTHER:
- Dynamic range 47dB (vel=1:127).
- MP3 levels: peak @ -0.33dB, noise floor @ -90dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-04-23.


-----------------------------------------------------
- EastWest Quantum Leap Goliath PMI Bosendorfer 290 -
-----------------------------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v1.6_ewql_goliath_pmi_bosendorfer_290.mp3
- Recorded in Cubase 5, converted to MP3 in Wavelab 6 w/ LAME encoder.
- All settings default except reverb off.
- Recorded by "pesk".
PROS:
- No looping.
- 5 velocity layers.
- Velocity switch @ vel=34,66,98,114.
CONS:
- Fails the pedal down sympathetic resonance test.
- Fails the key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Passes/fails the pedal down silent replay test, no damping during test, but vel=1 note continues past the end!
- Fails the brief pedal partial damping test.
- Fails the partial pedaling test.
- Low and high notes have quite short decay, ~1/2 Pianoteq.
- No key up or pedal up/down sounds.
- C3 has loud "clack" sound @ ~2sec.
- C5 & C7 have a "thump" sound near the end.
- Obviously stretched.
- Stretch distances: 1,2,1,2,2,1,2(x3),1,2,2,1,2(x3),1,2,2,1,2(x3),1,2,2,1,2(x3),1,2,2,1,2(x3),1,2,2,1,2(x3),1,2,2,1,2,2,3 = 51 groups.
- Velocity layer switches quite visible and very audible, particulary @ vel=34,66,114.
OTHER:
- Dynamic range 23dB (vel=1:127).
- MP3 levels: peak @ -0.25dB, noise floor @ -90dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-04-23.

Native Instruments Kontakt 4 Factory Grand Piano Review

Thanks yet again to pesk, we have a DPBSD MP3 of the Native Instruments Kontakt 4 Factory Grand Piano - thanks pesk! I believe this is a free offering from NI.

This is a highly stretched, possibly looped, three velocity layer (with filtering) sample set. It's nice that they included key up and pedal up/down sounds, but I found them to be really obnoxious. It seems to have pedal down sympathetic resonance of some sort, and it surprisingly passes the pedal down silent replay test, but it fails the key down sympathetic resonance test, the brief pedal partial damping test, and the partial pedaling test. The velocity=15 G5 note used to signal the end of the DPBSD tests sounds strangely like a second higher note plays slightly later - very odd.

Review below, MP3 and more analysis pics at the share point.



Waveform view of the looping test. Note decays are nice and long.


Spectral phase view of the looping test. If there is looping it is very well done.


Spectral phase view of the stretch test. A mere 16 samples cover all 88 notes of this velocity layer.


Spectral frequency view of layer test, where both layer switches are clearly visible, as is some filtering to help blend them.



----------------------------------------------------
- Native Instruments Kontakt 4 Factory Grand Piano -
----------------------------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v1.6_ni_kontakt4_factory_grand.mp3
- Kontakt 4 non-realtime export, converted to MP3 in Wavelab 6 w/ LAME encoder.
- All settings default except reverb off.
- Recorded by "pesk".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test, though the effect is subtle.
- Pedal up/down sounds like loom-of-strings & key up makes "clunk" sound.
- Passes the pedal down silent replay test.
- Decay times are nice and long.
- 3 velocity layers with some filtering.
- Velocity switch @ vel=42,104
CONS:
- Fails the key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Fails the brief pedal partial damping test.
- Fails the partial pedaling test.
- I believe it is looped, but not audibly, with very long attack and loop samples.
- Visibly and audibly very stretched.
- Stretch distances: 1,6(x5),5,4,6(x8) = 16 groups.
- Velocity layer switches quite visible and very audible.
- Pedal & key up effects are obnoxiously loud.
- G5 sounds like a second higher note plays slightly later.
OTHER:
- Dynamic range 42dB (vel=1:127).
- MP3 levels: peak @ -3.81dB, noise floor @ -90dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-04-23.

Regarding the Roland HP-307:



Yep! I hear that now (doh!). This confirms that the MIDI commands I added to DPBSD v1.7a for the "key down sympathetic resonance" test do not enable things like damper noise, etc, during MIDI playback. I plan to investigate this further, and am betting (hoping?) that additional MIDI commands are needed.



I'm slowly figuring out what you've been talking about, and this post of yours about the CLP330 really helped:

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...e%20DP%20BSD%20Project!.html#Post1386410

I've done strictly analog recordings this afternoon, and I can't reproduce the decay that you are expecting to see. At the website below I added some pictures and an MP3 in case you want to open it up in Adobe Audition:

http://wmsar.info/dewster_dpbsd/

Since the expected / characteristic decay is not present on the HP-307, then what are we hearing for the "damper down sympathetic resonance" test? Is it "super fake" sympathetic resonance? I'm really confused.



Thanks for letting me know. I'm new at this, so I'll try to figure out how to improve it. I'm trying not to download Adobe Audition, but I think I might have to.

It makes absolutely no sense to me why many critical sound features are missing when the HP-307 plays a MIDI file - shouldn't all features enabled be the default? Roland is leaving everyone to their own devices, flailing around trying to turn them back on, without so much as even a MIDI spec. It's almost like a major manufacturer isn't standing behind their product or something. People want to buy these things and have them just work, that's why they shell out the big bucks.

Yep, I agree, especially being one that shelled out big bucks. It would be nice if Roland simply activated the current 'Piano Designer' settings during MIDI playback; or at least provided a menu option to enable or disable it. I plan to complain to Roland once I better understand the HP-307 MIDI behavior.

I'm still confused about the analog recordings that I took yesterday -- I hear what sounds like 'sympathetic resonance', but it doesn't seem to have the decay you're expecting. Any insight, or thoughts about what is happening?

Here's another little test to add to the TODO list: if the instrument provides a different timbre for the soft pedal, test how far this extends into the forte velocities.

I've just noticed that in the EWQLP, which does provide true soft pedal samples, that they have only provided low velocity samples. No matter how hard it is played with the soft pedal, the timbre is VERY mellow - it's not authentic.

Greg.

TruePianos Diamond Re-Review (for v1.5.0)

Thanks to our tireless pesk, we have five DPBSD MP3s of the latest TruePianos offerings - thanks pesk! I reviewed TP Diamond v1.4.1 almost three months ago so this is a good time to revisit them.

Since they are fairly similar, I decided to only analyze the Diamond piano in any depth. All of them appear to be looped, and benefit from fairly long attack samples, but they really could use longer loop samples. The low note decay is nice, but the upper notes decay rather quickly. There is a fair amount of stretching going on, both visibly and audibly. What's interesting is that the velocity layers are smoothly blended, much like the latest hardware-based DP fare, so there is no obvious velocity layer switching going on.

All pass the silent replay and brief pedal damping tests, all fail the key down sympathetic resonance test, and there is no support for partial pedaling. All are supposed to have pedal down sympathetic resonance, but for the life of me I just couldn't hear it (pesk confirms that it was indeed enabled in the options). For some reason only the Sapphire Pedal piano has pedal sounds (clunky loom-of-strings sounds) - all other lack this. And none of them have key up sounds.

Review below, MP3s and more analysis pics at the share point.



Waveform view of the looping test. Decay times for the low notes are nice and long, but the higher notes have rather short decay times.


Spectral phase view of the note C4. Looping is quite clearly seen here.


Spectral phase view of the stretch test, middle notes. 24 samples are pressed into service to cover 88 notes.


Spectral frequency view of layer test. Timber variation is smooth with no velocity switching evident.


Spectral pan view of the pedal down sympathetic resonance test. Pedal down on left, up on right. I couldn't hear any difference.




-----------------------------
- TruePianos Diamond v1.5.0 -
-----------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- All settings default.
- Recorded in Cubase 5, converted to MP3 in Wavelab 6.
- Recorded by "pesk".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal down silent replay test.
- Passes the brief pedal partial damping test.
- Good lower note decay times, higher notes rather short.
- Nicely blended velocity layers, no switching visible or audible.
CONS:
- Fails the key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Fails the partial pedaling test.
- Visibly and audibly looped.
- Attack sample lengths are (C1:C8): 9.8,6.5,4.8,4.3,4.0,1.8,?,? seconds.
- Loop sample lengths are (C1:C8): 2.4,0.9,1.1,1.2,0.8,0.3,?,? seconds.
- Visibly and audibly very stretched.
- Stretch distances: 8,4(x4),2,5,3,4(x6),3(x3),1,3,5,2,2,1,7 = 24 groups.
- No pedal up/down or key up sounds (Sapphire Pedal has pedal sounds).
OTHER:
- Something like pedal down sympathetic resonance slightly visible, not audible.
- Sample set sizes: Amber (117 MB); Diamond (70 MB); Emerald (84 MB); Sapphire (107 MB).
- Dynamic range 59dB (vel=1:127).
- MP3 levels: peak @ -6.3dB, noise floor @ -90dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-03; updated: 2010-04-26.

I thought 'True Pianos' was modelled, not sampled?
Which package am I thinking of, in addition to Pianoteq, of course?

Cheers,
James
x

Good question! You're undoubtedly thinking of TruePianos, because I myself have heard this over and over in web forums. I did a Google search of "Truepianos modeled" (without quotes) and got 86,800 hits.

But then I go over to http://www.truepianos.com and do a text search for "model" on all of the pages I'm allowed access to and come up with nothing.

I don't know where the whole "TruePianos is modeled" meme came from, but it seems TruePianos themselves aren't pushing it, at least not explicitly any more. From their FAQ:


Unless one has a woefully inadequate PC that won't play anything but lobotomized romplers, I'm not sure why anyone would buy their stuff. The layer blending is nice, and the attack sample lengths are adequate, but with those babies comes a fair amount of dirty bathwater.

Someone is....

From the VSL Vienna Imperial manual:
This software contains copyrighted elements of the following third parties:
(C) 2005–2009 4Front Technologies
(C) 2005–2008 SIA Syncrosoft
(C) 2003–2008 Alberto Demichelis,
(C) 1995–2005 Jean-Loup Gailly and Mark Adler,
(C) 1998–2008 Glenn Randers-Pehrson,
(C) 2000-2007 Josh Coalson
(C) 1996–2008 The FreeType Project,
(C) 1998–2000 Thai Open Source Software Center Ltd and Clark Cooper,
(C) 1998–2000 Clark Cooper,
(C) 2001–2008 Keith Packard,
(C) 2001–2008 Carl Worth,
(C) 2001–2006 Expat maintainers,
(C) 2002 University of Southern California.