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#1369564 - 02/09/10 03:07 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: D4v3]
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Full Member
Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 430
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BLASPHEMY!!! How dare you sully Chopin!!! J/K you can say what ever you want, just not about Chopin. Well, speaking of Chopin... What was he thinking when he wrote the Nocturne in C#-minor, op.27 no1? This is the story I hear: Larghetto - a calm night, I am falling asleep at home, dreaming somewhat weird, but rather beautiful and calm dreams. Piu mosso - the wind starts to build up outside my window, my sleep becomes more restless. In my dreams I am confronted by a dragon. Appassionato - I slay the dragon. Agitato - The wind outside my window builds up to a storm. My sleep becomes very restless. The dragon I just slayed is brought back to life and keeps growing bigger and bigger every second. con anima - stretto - I am woke up by a gang of drunk frat boys passing outside my window, singing (or rather screaming) a catchy drinking song. fff (16 bars later) - I scream at the frat boys to get lost so that I can get some sleep. Tempo 1 - I go back to sleep. Now this is otherwise fine and I kind of like most of the piece, but I could really do without the drunk frat boys. How on earth did they get into that piece???
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#1369574 - 02/09/10 03:20 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: RogerW]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 1072
Loc: Toronto
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Ok I probably haven't listened to Prokofiev's non-piano works (and I rarely listen to non-piano works by other composers), but all the numerous piano works, whether it be the concertos, preludes or sonatas - all of them just sound too abstract for my liking.
I just have this profound distaste for Prokofiev. I remember trying to listen to Prokofiev's works after listening to countless works by Rachmaninoff (and hoping to hear similar styles since they are from the same era), but to me, Prokofiev's music is just garbled notes. Many dissonant sounds with no purpose. Very few melodic lines that I enjoy. Just utter...'garbage'. It's something which I personally don't consider music, almost like how I don't consider Karl Stockhausen's experiments with synthesizers to be 'music', just random notes with atrocious harmonies.
If you are perturbed with my views on Prokofiev, don't get me started on Bach =p
I'm the anti-Glenn Gould. Gould loved Bach but hated Chopin. I'm the opposite =p
_________________________
Old videos from prior piano competitions: http://www.youtube.com/user/kilace____________________ "... It is a skill you go on learning all your life: the more you write, the more you learn." Harry Freedman on the craft of composing
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#1369580 - 02/09/10 03:29 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: Googlism]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4326
Loc: Seattle area, WA
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What about the Barenboim don't you like? Just curious. It's hard to pin down. Some are lackluster. There are some mistakes. Some are excellent. I have enormous respect for Barenboim but I often feel slightly unsatisfied by his Beethoven sonatas. This is probably more to do with me rather than Barenboim.
I have to assume that is true of me too just as I assume my ignorance of the Beethoven sonatas is coloring my judgment. I hope I will connect with them better once I've listened to them more. I understand Perahia is working on recording the complete Beethoven sonatas. He's one of my favorite living pianists so I'd love to hear this. Googlism, everyone has different taste and what we like and dislike can change. In general, I don't enjoy most contemporary composers but for some reason I'm crazy about Prokofiev. I happen to worship Bach.
_________________________
Best regards,
Deborah
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#1369651 - 02/09/10 05:30 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: Googlism]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 625
Loc: WV
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I just have this profound distaste for Prokofiev. I remember trying to listen to Prokofiev's works after listening to countless works by Rachmaninoff (and hoping to hear similar styles since they are from the same era), but to me, Prokofiev's music is just garbled notes. Many dissonant sounds with no purpose. Very few melodic lines that I enjoy. Just utter...'garbage'. It's something which I personally don't consider music, almost like how I don't consider Karl Stockhausen's experiments with synthesizers to be 'music', just random notes with atrocious harmonies.
I have no problem with you disliking Prokofiev and modern composers, and you are entitled to your own opinion, but this is just complete ignorance.
_________________________
Currently working on
Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3
Beethoven Sonata Op.109
Chopin Op.10 No.1
Bach WTC II no. 15
--Sam--
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#1369662 - 02/09/10 05:49 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: xtraheat]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 5228
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
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Prokofiev is okay, but I only actually LIKE a few of his works.
Ravel is my favorite composer, and I like every one of his works.
Hmm... The Liszt Grande Galop Chromatique (spelling?) comes to mind, but as a technical study it is quite good. And I've gained some appreciation for the solo piano Totentanz.
Overall, I guess am not very critical about music at all.
_________________________
2013: The year of Alkan 
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#1369675 - 02/09/10 06:17 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: Orange Soda King]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/17/10
Posts: 621
Loc: Bristol, UK
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What never fails to amaze me is how someone can say they hate composer X on the basis of knowing a fairly small part of the whole range of the composer's music.
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#1369678 - 02/09/10 06:23 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: John_B]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 16728
Loc: Victoria, BC
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What never fails to amaze me is how someone can say they hate composer X on the basis of knowing a fairly small part of the whole range of the composer's music.
... and the other side of the coin : "Oh, I just love Liszt! I've heard his Liebesträume No. 3." Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
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#1369704 - 02/09/10 07:08 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: BruceD]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 5228
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
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... and the other side of the coin : "Oh, I just love Liszt! I've heard his Liebesträume No. 3."
Regards,
Luckily for those who say that, Liszt was not a one-hit wonder. 
_________________________
2013: The year of Alkan
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#1369734 - 02/09/10 08:13 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: xtraheat]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 1072
Loc: Toronto
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@xtraheat
I stated my opinions as to why I dislike Prokofiev's works, which I think is a legit reason. Each composer has their own style of composing, and each audience has their preference. Glenn Gould loved Bach, Beethoven and Brahms, but did not enjoy Chopin, Schumann or Mozart. Heck, he even said "Mozart was a bad composer who died late rather than early". Mozart's style (consistent with his era) is easy to distinguish and I can understand why he would not like it. Do I disagree with Gould's assessment of the romantic era composers as well? Of course! Do I think that his reasoning is ignorant? No, it's logical and it was his opinion.
@JohnB
It would be difficult for the audience to attempt to listen to each work by a composer and then make judgments on them only after listening to them all. But as you mentioned, it is unfair to judge a composer by a select few works. That being said, I've been exposed and forced to listen to many Prokofiev pieces, and none of them made me want to listen to them again. It's not the performance that is at fault, it's just the rampant dissonant themes and mass unpredictability in his music which do not enlighten me.
_________________________
Old videos from prior piano competitions: http://www.youtube.com/user/kilace____________________ "... It is a skill you go on learning all your life: the more you write, the more you learn." Harry Freedman on the craft of composing
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#1369761 - 02/09/10 08:49 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: Googlism]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 625
Loc: WV
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Have you ever heard Prok's 3rd Piano Concerto?
_________________________
Currently working on
Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3
Beethoven Sonata Op.109
Chopin Op.10 No.1
Bach WTC II no. 15
--Sam--
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#1369770 - 02/09/10 09:17 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: xtraheat]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4326
Loc: Seattle area, WA
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I think a good place to try Prokofiev is his Symphony #1, the Classical Symphony. It has many melodic lines and a lot of humor too.
_________________________
Best regards,
Deborah
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#1369784 - 02/09/10 09:41 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: xtraheat]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 1072
Loc: Toronto
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@extraheat
I have heard Prokofiev's 3rd, though only the 1st and 3rd. 1st is blah and the 3rd pretty much sums up what I expect Prokofiev to be all about - full of dissonant music. I can only imagine what the 2nd movement must be like.
@gooddog
Thats the kind of music I enjoy - melodies that are clear, dissonant harmonies to a minimum
_________________________
Old videos from prior piano competitions: http://www.youtube.com/user/kilace____________________ "... It is a skill you go on learning all your life: the more you write, the more you learn." Harry Freedman on the craft of composing
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#1369793 - 02/09/10 09:49 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: Googlism]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 5228
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
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Prokofiev is okay (I don't dislike him at all! Great composer, it's just personal taste, and I do kind of like him) but I actually REALLY REALLY like Shostakovich! (Shostokovich?)
The two piano concerti are SO cool, and the chamber music is really cool too! One of his quartets (I think) sounds like heavy metal or something, it's so awesome!
_________________________
2013: The year of Alkan
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#1369803 - 02/09/10 09:58 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: Orange Soda King]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
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I'm glad to hear that someone else has a problem with Beethoven 49 #2. I always thought I had some sort of genetic deficiency, at least now I have company I was tortured with it as a kid which didn't help. I have never laughed so much at a PW post as I did reading this old one from Garbage thread. Thank you Janus; wicked humour. Bach's Well Tempered Whatever: boring contrapuntal exercises. Except the Ave Maria prelude -- so pretty!
Handel's Messiah: any educated soul knows it's nothing compared to Israel in Egypt!
Beethoven's Appassionata: someone got out of the wrong side of the bed! Need a beer?
Beethoven's Ninth, all the late quartets and late piano sonatas: pretentious nonsense.
Schubert's Winterreise: can't handle a breakup, eh?
Schubert's Lieder: they lied to me!
Chopin's First Ballade: pianistic noise.
Schumann's Piano Concerto: sissy music.
Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony: where is the pasta, the gondolas, the bad tenor singing?!?
Dvorak's Ninth Symphony: coz the last movement copies the Jaws theme, man!
Liszt's Sonata in B minor: silly piano bashing.
Brahms's chamber music: better than the lulluby for going to sleep.
Wagner's Ring Cycle: better than Brahms's chamber music for going to sleep.
Tchaikovsky's Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Symphonies: closet too tight for you?
Mahler's Symphonies: John Williams does it better.
Rachmaninov's Concertos 2-3 and Pag. Rhapsody: if you needed therapy to compose such filth, I don't want to know what pre-therapy music sounds like!
All operas: coz classical vocals suck! Except Puccini's Nessum Dorma, coz long high notes are kewl during a football (i.e. soccer) game!
Scriabin's Op. 8 #12 Etude: childish temper tantrum.
Everything by Richard Strauss -- except "Sunrise" from Also Sprach Zarathustra. Duh!
Everything by Haydn and Mozart: too many notes, laughs, and not profound enough. Except the works in minor keys.
All ancient, medieval, and renaissance music: coz there's, like, no emotion whatsoever, man.
All modern music: too dissonant -- I luv triads! Oh, except Barber's Adagio for Strings -- that song is nice. Yep that made my day.
_________________________
 Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it. Alex Ross.
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#1369811 - 02/09/10 10:12 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: Googlism]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6143
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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@xtraheat
I stated my opinions as to why I dislike Prokofiev's works, which I think is a legit reason. Each composer has their own style of composing, and each audience has their preference. Glenn Gould loved Bach, Beethoven and Brahms, but did not enjoy Chopin, Schumann or Mozart. Heck, he even said "Mozart was a bad composer who died late rather than early". Mozart's style (consistent with his era) is easy to distinguish and I can understand why he would not like it. Do I disagree with Gould's assessment of the romantic era composers as well? Of course! Do I think that his reasoning is ignorant? No, it's logical and it was his opinion.
@JohnB
It would be difficult for the audience to attempt to listen to each work by a composer and then make judgments on them only after listening to them all. But as you mentioned, it is unfair to judge a composer by a select few works. That being said, I've been exposed and forced to listen to many Prokofiev pieces, and none of them made me want to listen to them again. It's not the performance that is at fault, it's just the rampant dissonant themes and mass unpredictability in his music which do not enlighten me.
Just so ya know...Gould did not love Beethoven and considered most of his works to be "empty, banal, hedonistic, superficial and belligerent". About the Emperor concerto (which, oddly enough, he recorded and performed many times) he said, "it is a harmonically simple-minded work and an impossible mixture of naivete and professionalism ... nowhere this side of Grand Old Opry can one encounter more unadorned II-V-I progressions." He called the Hammerklavier (once again, a work he recorded), "mathematical tomfoolery"(the fugue), and of the entire sonata, "the most inconsiderate, least rewarding piece Beethoven wrote for the piano." Don't get me started on Gould. I am thankful to him for pushing Bach back under the mainstream spotlight where he belongs, but that's about it. The man was, certainly, endowed with many gifts. Had he not been quite so interested in promoting himself and placing his views ahead of the music itself, he might have been able to teach future generations a great deal.
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1369812 - 02/09/10 10:13 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: xtraheat]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6143
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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Have you ever heard Prok's 3rd Piano Concerto? Second Concerto! Second Concerto! Second Concerto! =)
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1369814 - 02/09/10 10:15 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: stores]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6143
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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That post from Janus, above, DOES belong in the garbage.
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1369817 - 02/09/10 10:18 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: stores]
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Full Member
Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 216
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Rachmaninov's Concertos 2-3 and Pag. Rhapsody: if you needed therapy to compose such filth, I don't want to know what pre-therapy music sounds like! Well, that's why he had therapy, you see... Everything by Haydn and Mozart: too many notes, laughs, and not profound enough. Except the works in minor keys. LOL! +1, definitely! :P
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#1369824 - 02/09/10 10:30 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: stores]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 1072
Loc: Toronto
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That surprised me regarding Beethoven! We all know Gould to have been quite an eccentric and peculiar pianist and person. I wouldn't doubt if there was a suggestion that he was in some part, insane, which would have created some unique and controversial views of music. He also hummed and chanted a lot while playing... Compare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB76jxBq_gQ&feature=related@ 1:58 with Lang Lang...and we know how crazy Lang Lang is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b85hn8rJvgw
_________________________
Old videos from prior piano competitions: http://www.youtube.com/user/kilace____________________ "... It is a skill you go on learning all your life: the more you write, the more you learn." Harry Freedman on the craft of composing
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#1369825 - 02/09/10 10:34 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: Orange Soda King]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1237
Loc: Dallas, TX
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Prokofiev is okay (I don't dislike him at all! Great composer, it's just personal taste, and I do kind of like him) but I actually REALLY REALLY like Shostakovich! (Shostokovich?) (The first spelling is correct.) You should give a listen to some of his preludes and fugues for piano. (24 altogether, like Bach's WTC.) A few years ago I got to hear Christopher O'Riley perform a couple of them in Fort Worth, and they were fascinating pieces! Or perhaps you've already listened to some of them?
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#1369826 - 02/09/10 10:35 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: Googlism]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6143
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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I've been convinced he was nuts for years lol. I'll pass on watching either of the videos, since they're both arguably numbers 1 and 2 on my most hated pianists list. That said, I have read an extraordinary amount about Gould, including, a couple of bios and I own a few documentaries on DVD, as well. My favorite quote from him, "They say I'm a hypochondriac, and so, I am."
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1369828 - 02/09/10 10:37 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: ChrisKeys]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6143
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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Prokofiev is okay (I don't dislike him at all! Great composer, it's just personal taste, and I do kind of like him) but I actually REALLY REALLY like Shostakovich! (Shostokovich?) (The first spelling is correct.) You should give a listen to some of his preludes and fugues for piano. (24 altogether, like Bach's WTC.) A few years ago I got to hear Christopher O'Riley perform a couple of them in Fort Worth, and they were fascinating pieces! Or perhaps you've already listened to some of them? Chris O'Riley (who is a friend of mine), does a remarkable job with Shostakovich. Ashkenazy's recording of the same "24" is, also, well worth the listen.
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1369829 - 02/09/10 10:46 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: stores]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1237
Loc: Dallas, TX
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Chris O'Riley (who is a friend of mine), does a remarkable job with Shostakovich. Ah, very nice. Well, whenever you next see or talk to him, you can pass along that both my wife and I really enjoyed those preludes and fugues he did over at Ft. Worth. I'm sorry I didn't say something to him after the concert. :-\
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#1369832 - 02/09/10 10:49 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: Googlism]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3172
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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Thanks for that pointer. Starting at about 1:10, that's probably the coolest video I've seen all week. I'm not being sarcastic. Really. -Jason
_________________________
Working on: Beethoven op.57, Bach WTC F# minor Book II
Next:
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#1369841 - 02/09/10 11:01 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: ChrisKeys]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6143
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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Chris O'Riley (who is a friend of mine), does a remarkable job with Shostakovich. Ah, very nice. Well, whenever you next see or talk to him, you can pass along that both my wife and I really enjoyed those preludes and fugues he did over at Ft. Worth. I'm sorry I didn't say something to him after the concert. :-\ You, certainly, should have. Chris, is a great guy and very approachable. I'll let him know his Ft. Worth fans are still talking about him. =)
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1369849 - 02/09/10 11:17 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: gooddog]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6143
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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What about the Barenboim don't you like? Just curious. There are some mistakes. I guess I should give them another listen then. You must be very, very familiar with the sonatas. I thought I knew them well, but, perhaps not.
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1369850 - 02/09/10 11:17 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: stores]
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8000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8184
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
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Don't get me started on Gould. I am thankful to him for pushing Bach back under the mainstream spotlight where he belongs, but that's about it.
+1. Gould's Bach is indispensable, though IMO not the only recordings of Bach one should have in their library. Aside from that, I fail to hear much of interest in his recordings of other composers -particularly Beethoven and Mozart- and my library contains nothing of his except for Bach. (And not that much.) I once heard Gould's recording of Beethoven's Op. 28 on the radio, and I almost crashed the car. (Well not really, but you get my point.) Like Maria Callas and Barbra Streisand, Gould has his rabid fans, and good on them. Just count me out, though one could certainly make a case for Callas being one of the seminal operatic voices of all time. (But I'm not a huge fan, generally an honest respect, yet more than I could ever claim about Gould.)
_________________________
Jason
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#1369863 - 02/09/10 11:31 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: argerichfan]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 1072
Loc: Toronto
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You should listen to his rendition of the popular Alla Turca by Mozart. Certainly one of the slowest interpretations I've heard - it bothered me quite a bit.
_________________________
Old videos from prior piano competitions: http://www.youtube.com/user/kilace____________________ "... It is a skill you go on learning all your life: the more you write, the more you learn." Harry Freedman on the craft of composing
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#1369865 - 02/09/10 11:32 PM
Re: Clunkers by the great composers
[Re: Googlism]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6143
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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Unfortunately, I've heard it (and the rest of the sonata as well).
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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