maybe I was thinking of 'blabbering'

7notemode, I know what you mean about people trying to learn Jazz. Look at these threads here. The other jazz thread was started 3+ years ago and I was just noting that some files got downloaded over 3000+ times! There was so little information before and some stuff is just to obscure to explain in words.

It proves that there is an audience out there constantly looking for information.

On the Barbara Lister Sink, apparently you read the thread too Man, you can't argue with the Classical guys. Sometimes it can be all about technique with them and they're forgetting that you're improvising. LOL. It's not like you can prepare for your moves ahead of time. Me, I look at the end product and the improvisation sounded great!

7note - how to swing is not an easy concept to convey. (Ask jazzwee and me )

Jazzwee - You've learned some Scots today. Blether is a real word, and it's meaning is quite different from blabber.

And guess which file got downloaded 3222 times...the SWING file.


blether [ˈblɛðə]
vb & n
Scot a variant spelling of blather
[from Old Norse blathra, from blathr nonsense]

7notemode: I really like your videos on “How to swing” and The Christmas Song. Between you, jazzwee, and beeboss, I am gradually learning how to swing.

Thanks, custard apple. I'm still learning how to deepen my swing, so it's an unending process of discovering how to go deeper in the pocket.

Doh! Mike A found a mistake I made in the Soph Lady tutorial - I used an E and called it the Tritone of Ab (should be D). Now I have to rethink why I use an e and g on top of an Ab dim chord! :-)

LOL Don't worry. I wouldn't have noticed since I didn't even know the changes

7notemode: that is really encouraging that even you are still working hard at it. I don't have a teacher at the moment and I've just started jazz in the last year from a classical background.

Jazzwee, 7notemode, et al,

Re the discussions about teaching swing: It seems that you are trying to teach something that is exceptionally difficult to get across on an internet forum. I've been thinking - - it might be useful to also have a picture of a proper swing style showing the pitches, time relationships, and loudness of the notes.

You can get this picture from a midi file.

Here's an example. I used Band In A Box to generate (from notation input) a midi file of a bebop scale, played down and up one octave. I used a Style setting which told Band In A Box to use swing eighths. I then opened the file with Power Tracks (a sister program of Band In A Box), and looked at it in the Piano Roll window. Here is what it looks like:




The short thick horizontal lines in the center of the picture represent the notes, and their lengths represent the durations. Eyeballing this, you can see that in each pair of eighth notes, the first starts on a vertical grid line, and the second starts about two thirds of the way between the vertical grid lines, so the swing ratio is about 2:1. Each vertical line at the bottom represents the loudness of the note shown above it. You can see that all notes in this example are equally loud - apparently there are no accents in the Band In A Box algorithm.

So my suggestion is to provide a few midi files of actual recordings of some simple scales or patterns (played live and recorded with midi sequencer software) with proper swing articulation, so we can see what they look like in a piano roll display.

Just a thought.

I guess I should add - to make sure there is no misunderstanding - that the example here is not supposed to show how to play swing - it is just intended to show how you could use a midi recording to create a picture.


Ed

Riddler, watching a waveform of swing doesn't really do justice to the concept, unfortunately. The swing ratio is never constant, and of course moves to straight as you go uptempo. Then there's the dragging back delay I was talking about.

So when I was taught to swing, it was just to focus on the accent on the upbeat and less on the triplet feel, and in fact to lessen the triplet feel. And then my teacher demonstrated different swing styles from different players. Later on, it was my task to duplicate those styles.

The funny thing about swing is although it is extremely difficult to explain in words, it's not hard to demonstrate in person. It is still hard listening to a recording, but with a little back and forth with a teacher, it didn't take long.

But one thing I know even today: one cannot swing well until you master time. It frustrates me because it is the biggest difficulty of all jazzers I think (to varying degrees).

Riddler - FYI - your image doesn't show.

I see the image. Though I'm not sure that seeing it is any preferable to hearing it.

For my money, from a beginning point of view, this aspect of swing is quite simple. You have two quavers. Don't divide the beat equally - make the first longer than the second. I understood that the first time I read it - I played it and instantly recognised the sound. My 10 year old also understood it first time I told him.

I'm not saying that's all there is to it, and I'm not saying it's necessarily easy to play.

That's pretty much the crux of it. The only thing I add is whatever you do, be consistent. You can't vary the ratio in a phrase as you will sound like you're not in the pocket. Being too specific with this including specifying 2:1 (triplet feel) ratios is meaningless. There are plenty of other issues that affect this (dragging, tempo, and style).

I think the upbeat accent grounds the player in the time, It's like playing with the metronome at 2 & 4. My teacher focuses ONLY on the accent.

And yes of course the next thing is the accent. And that, for me, was harder because I had to understand, accept, hear, and then physically do it. And nothing made sense until I realised that the accent was only half of the story - you need to soften and lighten the downbeat too.

7notemode, I was responding to your post and then it disappeared...Wow that was weird.

Just thought I would post up what I was working on today...
Goodbye pork pie hat, what a great tune that is

http://www.divshare.com/download/10517514-9d4

Its not really a good performance but you can get the idea of the harmony i was trying out.

welcome to 7note as well. I was just enjoying your sophisticated lady.

Jazzwee, I decided that post was too off topic.

Hello Dave BB. Nice GBPPH! The head sounds almost Monkish.

Beeboss, that was fun listening to your harmonization of GBPPH! That sounded very nice. That solo was great too You sure work on a lot of tunes.

I might put this on my to-do list.

That was fantastic, Dave! Excellent arrangement front to back and side to side.

I've been practicing a great deal of classical music lately and tonight was no exception. As I was doing some serious procrastinating when it came to working on particular segments of a Schumann piece and a Beethoven piece I want to learn, I then began to experiment. So here it is rhythm errors and all combined with little whisps of coherence...It is called the E-cital Blues

http://www.box.net/shared/7g24j4ssgn

Glen

You've got some pretty fast fingers Glen! I really enjoyed that and I was transcribing your chromatic lines in my head.

BTW - You know blues is great for practicing keeping the form because it's pretty hard to mess up.

I had a nice lesson with my teacher today and it was about phrasing, and specifically mixing up of lines starting on the upbeat with lines starting on the downbeat. So for the next couple of weeks, I'll ingrain this into my practice. This might be called the Herbie Hancock Lesson since he's famous for this phrasing style.

Hi Glen,

Great feel you have in your blues, really liked it.

I also practice a lot of classical. Bach mainly but I'm trying to move on from that a bit now.

Hey BB,

great piece you posted, that was really hot.

Hi Dave,
Here is an extension of the e-cital blues using more of a comp style with more voiced chords, plus another, slower blues-style piece.

http://www.box.net/shared/fta2zms1ag

http://www.box.net/shared/s9h19bi1i3

Jazzwee, I just need to count, count, count...sounds so easy, but bad habits are hard to break!

Glen

I was trying to address this same issue myself, and my teacher just had me simplify. So you should see how you do with eighth notes. Jazz is mostly about eighth notes anyway and that's where the swing comes in.

You already know how to play 16th's. So it's just a matter of going backwards to set the foundation. At least that's the kind of commentary I would get.

Why don't you try posting Blues with eighth notes? Then you watch your form and see what happens. Then try other tunes.

Jazzwee,

Yes, focus will be applied to using strictly 8th notes for awhile and sticking to more strict chord changes (timing). I am perhaps attempting to do too much at once and what ends up happening sounds like free-playing with random structure, no discipline. ...can't really play music with others if that is the case.

I have a new play-along book which will help to keep me in-line with the correctly metered changes and sticking with 8ths. Now, I just need to juggle that practice with the classical music I enjoy practicing. TeeDahTeeDahTeeDah...the basic sound of swing.

Glen

I told you I have the same issues. I was so enamored with finally doing sixteenths that I'm forgetting the basics of phrasing and even my swing. And of course time.

So I too will be doing a similar thing. I'm not going to be happy until my time is rock solid as well as my ability to stay on form. Unfortunately, I know this is no short term thing. Sometimes improvement is incrementally small.

BTW - even if it's just eighth notes, then you speed up the eighths all the way to above 200bpm. It's still eighths but it's more rigorous for practicing form then sixteenths are I think. It's easier to track the pulse.

Glen,
Nice chops :-)
You may want to play (and record) with a metronome on the two and the four. That way you can hear the pulse in an objective way and better tell how far in the pocket you are.

Since were talking about swing, here is an ancient clip of Ed Paolantonio, whom I took lessons from many years ago. You can move the timeline to the 4 minute mark, where he starts his solo. He is a faithful Tristanoite, having taken from Lennie Tristano. LT and his students have a particular kind of swing that is very specific. I thought it might be interesting since we are talking about different kinds of swing. This is the Tristano swing, I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR5aC7Q0b7E

Oh, and here are some mp3 examples, where the timing is probably more clear.
http://www.paoloproductions.com/15401.html

Talking of different kinds of swing this video is pretty interesting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqXjyOfoN8g

some of the greatest piano players playing a few choruses back to back. Tristano is just on a different level than the other guys, even than Bill Evans. I don't know what it is about the Tristano swing but what he plays always completely knocks me out, always its the unexpected.
Interesting to compare their styles though, a lesson in jazz history in that one video.

Dave,
that's a great video, I totally agree with you.

Here's a shameless imitating exercise I did today. Well, over the last few days. Singing with solos is a great exercise.



take care--