Is it just me, or am I hearing alot of similarities in style between the two. Not to mention Debussey now that I think of it.

Am I missing anoyone else that sounds like Chopin?

You might enjoy the music of Karol Szymanowski.

I don't hear much relation between either Debussy or Scriabin and Chopin. Early Scriabin to some extent. I think I do remember reading that Debussy idolized Chopin.

To me some of the Russian Romantics sound more Chopinesque. This piece for example:
Glink:La Separation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg8vVz3eVtM

No, they are soooo different..

Although Scriabin loved Chopin - hence the preludes.

P.S. No second 'e' in Debussy =P

Some critics do see similarities between the early piano works of Scriabin and those of Chopin. Indeed, when, in 1906, Scriabin played his Prelude and Nocturne for Left Hand Alone, Op. 9, Nos. 1 and 2, it is reported that he was immediately dubbed "le Chopin gaucher" - the left-handed Chopin.

Regards,

Depends if we want to be a "lumper" or a "splitter."

Also (as you sort of suggested) it depends which periods and which pieces we're talking about.

Especially if we're talking in the broadest sense, I easily see similarities.

Hummel's two piano concertos sound remarkably Chopinesque to me, as I just discovered last year when I heard one on the radio, wondering why I couldn't figure out "which Chopin concerto ..." was playing.

I don't think Debussy sounds like Chopin at all. Early Scriabin draws inspiration from Chopin, but again, I think it's distinguishable.

I'm curious, can you give some examples of works/techniques where you see similarities?

Daniel

But similarities doesn't mean indistinguishable!


Scriabin: Almost any early work, and if we're talking very broadly about what "similarity" means, almost all of his works altogether. I play the 9th Sonata, and broadly speaking, I feel it to be similar to Chopin. I vividly feel the Chopinesque elements whenever I play it.

Debussy: Keeping in mind that "similar" doesn't mean indistinguishable, many works could be said to be similar to Chopin. The famous Reverie is the first one that comes to mind, and even Clair de Lune does also.

P.S. We know that both of these composers loved Chopin and were influenced by him.

You could make a case for the Chopin concertos sounding Hummelesque. Chopin, was very influenced by Hummel and his concertos were part of Chopin's repertoire. The Hummel a minor and Chopin e minor concertos are very similar in many respects. Stephen Hough's recordings, of the Hummel concertos are well worth listening to, by the way.

The Hummel concertos are much better than the Chopin concertos, IMO

Yeah, was there ever an answer to why Chopin's symphonic works are so lacking/ non existant? And then you hear the concertos and the orchestration just feels lacking.

Listen to the piano.

Ive always thought Debussy had a very pronounced romantic style. Chopin, in my mind, is a classical infusion of Romantic.

Not familiar with Scriaben.

There is a Chopin Piano concerto, the number slips my mind, but I always liked it over any other piano concerto.

"The F minor Concerto, Op. 21, described as 'number two', was actually written first. [...] People have been so concerned with the comparative inadequacy of the orchestration and the minor role given to the orchestra that the fact that these two concertos are masterpieces so often seems to escape notice. It is undoubtedly true that Chopin was to all intents and purposes a composer solely for piano, and the fact that these two works represent his total output in concerto form confirms that he himself was aware of his shortcomings. Other composers, Balakirev and Granados, for example, have thought it worth while to improve and alter the orchestration, but their action springs from the fundamental misconception, not of orchestral technique, but of the pianistic style which this orchestral writing was intended to accompany. The work, as indeed are all Chopin's other works, was conceived in terms of the keyboard, and the keyboard writing throughout is exceptionally full to the point of self-sufficiency. The curtailment, modification or elaboration of the orchestral part cannot be accomplished without modifying the piano writing also. No improvement is, in fact, possible." [1]

"The two piano concertos ... have of course been censured on several grounds, most notably the inadequacy of their scoring and the insecurity of their tonal and formal organization. This censure is not entirely misplaced, but there are, at the very least, mitigating factors. Criticism of the scoring often fails to acknowledge the generic distinctiveness of the post-classical brilliant concerto as opposed to the classical or early-romantic concerto. In a context where pianist-composers would commonly perform their concertos with just a string quintet as accompaniment, or even as solos, elaborate scoring was scarecely appropriate." [2]

[1]Peter Gould in : Alan Walker (ed.) Frederic Chopin, Profiles of the Man and the Music, London, Barrie and Rockliff, 1966, p.

[2] Jim Samson. Chopin. New York, Schirmer Books, 1996, p. 49.

Regards,

So says Peter Gould....

I like the piano part more in the Hummel concertos as well

Hummel would be very happy.

I only know a little Hummel, and whatever I've heard, I've liked -- but I have a hard time seeing how we could say it's comparable to Chopin, not to mention superior.

But in his own time, I know he was very highly regarded -- I think even higher than Beethoven.

On a separate note, I "think" I remember one of the Hummel Concertos having one of the most incredibly difficult codas I have ever seen, but I might be thinking of a different composer

Are you sure it isn't a different composer whose concertos you like better than Chopin's?

Nope... You should get a bit more familiar with Hummel's Concertos, they are all great. I don't really like either of the Chopin Concerto's except for the 2nd movement of the 2nd one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlLdv1azneU from 5:30 till the end is rough...

Yes -- that's pretty cool.
As is the rest of it.

About the cadenza, I especially like how it gets 'extended' at 6:34.

Yes, wasn't there just a topic about Henselt?
Sounds most Chopin of all to me.

This is where sotto voce would have joined in - he was a great Hummel fan and once sent me a long PM about Hummel's genius when I mentioned once in a thread that I liked his solo piano pieces.

Hummel was obviously a tremendous influence on Chopin, judging by Chopin's letters. It does seem when you first hear Hummel's music that he is copying Chopin, but the reverse is true. Hummel was a contemporary of Beethoven, studied with him under Haydn, and had a well-established career when Chopin first heard him. Hummel was the inventor of what we call the Chopin style, especially the use of bel canto melodies with elaborate figurations in the right hand forming mini cadenzas. The most remarkable thing about Hummel's playing were the strict tempos that he kept at all times - a very 18th century thing. To make his right hand figurations work, they had to be played with flexible time as long as overall they kept up with the left hand tempo. This is the pure definition of tempo rubato as Chopin is said to have used it: a strict left hand beat against a fluid right hand figuration. He obviously borrowed this from Hummel, and playing pieces by Hummel is the best way to understand how to play rubato in Chopin.

Hummel's great weakness, which pushed his music into obscurity, was an inability to write romantic melodies. You can't play Hummel's music and come away humming. One the other hand, if I could inhabit one composer's life, it would be Hummel. He lived a long time, and knew everybody. He was good friends with Beethoven and was at his bedside in his last month. He nurtured new talent like Chopin and Liszt, and he took Mendelssohn in as a student. He knew Cramer, von Weber, Moscheles, Clementi and anybody else worth knowing. Most interestingly, Mozart took him in for two years as a boarder/student when Hummel was eight. What must it have been like to have been a member of Mozart's family and be able to talk about him in the 1830s when no one else was alive who knew him?

Wow. That Glinka piece sounds extremely Chopinesque. Thank you so much for sharing that link, I'd never heard it before. Now to learn it!

There are at least five Hummel piano concertos, plus a couple more that aren't in the official count. There are various other works for piano and orchestra, too.

Agree totally, I think.......

But I sort of do!!
Although I must admit it's not really 'humming,' it's more like "bum-diddy-bum"-ing.
So I guess you're right.

I go around "bum-diddy-bum"-ing Hummel quite a bit.

I think Xaver Scharwenka's Polish dances sometimes sound a lot like Chopin mazurkas. Many of Scharwenka's are worth knowing, I might add.

To my ear, there is a certain similarity between some of Faure's music, especially the earlier pieces, and some of Chopin.

Well dunno about that. Henselt's music isn't nearly as harmonically complex as Chopin (or Liszt or Schumann), nor as technically complex. Generally Henselt comes off as 'consensus' music of its time.

That said, I enjoy his F minor Concerto (the horrible endurance factors aside), and it really is a mystery why his delightful Op. 2 Etudes are so seldom encountered. Rachmaninov certainly made a meal out of the #6, and unsurprisingly Godowsky put it through his bizarre prism. If memory recalls, Henselt also wrote a very melodic piano trio.