Hi,

I just bought the brand new KAWAI CA-63 and am very happy with it: Key action and touch and sound is very good.

I noticed something with my headphones though that annoys me: When I play a loud chord and then repeat it quiet with damper pedal down, I hear a cracking noise. It sounds a little bit like the cracking noise of an old gramophone record.

After some investigation I can clearly connect the problem to the damper effect. When I set the damper effect to off, the noise is no longer there, and when I set the damper effect to 10 (=maximum) it is noticeably louder.

Can anyone else reproduce this? It is really annoying and clearly noticeable all the time I play something with lots of damper pedal down.

Any advice would be very welcome!

Is the crackling noise only there when you listen via headphones?

If so I think this is a little strange as I would have thought that the headphone socket took its output from the same 'source' as the main amplification that feeds the speakers, though earlier in the chain.

Is it possible that it's also present through the loudspeakers but the headphones reveal it more because of the greater clarity?

(Of course I'm probably talking nonsense.)

No nonsense at all, since this would also come to my mind at first!

I can only hear the noise through the headphones (Beyerdynamic DT770), but it may well be that it's also present through the loudspeakers. Maybe I didn't notice it through the loudspeakers since I would not like to disturb our neighbours and my sleeping daughters, and because there is more detail detectable though headphones. But still it's annoying anyway since I mostly play through my headphones...

Call your dealer, report the problem and ask for their help to resolve it.

Kawai is notorious for launching products with problems; do a search on CA91 on this forum for examples.

Hopefully Kawai James will come across this thread and provide some inputs.

The only thing I can think of is opening the damper up by depressing the sustain/damper pedal allows sympathetic resonance sounds from nearby vibrating strings to be heard. If there's a problem with these sympathetic resonance sampled sounds that causes cracking noise, maybe that's what you're hearing. Crackling noises may also be heard when there's distortion or clipping of the sound when it hits the ceiling. I don't know what that has to do with the sympathetic resonance sounds, but maybe something's screwed up in the processing of these sounds that might have caused distortion/clipping. Another thing is that if sympathetic resonance sounds were not sampled but get artificially produced and/or processed somehow through looping or stretching or whatever, maybe you're just hearing the unpleasant artifacts or byproducts of this creation.

All wild guesses here. The best bet is to find someone with the same model and see if they hear the same thing or not (or try out another same model at the dealer). If the same thing can be heard from another one, then it may be a design flaw and not an issue with your device only.

@theJourney and @Volusiano, thanks for the input!

I can hear the same crackling noise on the demo model at the local dealer... It only happens when damper resonance is activated, and is very obvious when setting the resonance level to maximum (10/10). But even at default setting (5/10) it's still very noticeable... Too bad, since the resonance is an important part of realistic sound and joyful playing...

kawaian,

That probably indicates a design problem, although it is possible that both CA-63s were part of a bad batch.

I suggest you get your dealer to raise the matter forcefully with Kawai. I would guess that Kawai would be eager to rectify the problem as it has the potential to greatly harm sales.

Pity as the CA-63 was on my short list in the event of buying a new DP.

+1

I owned a Kawai MP8 for 2 years and I remember similar problems with it.

I appreciate the efforts of Kawai in giving us a wooden keyboard with probably the most realistic dp action at a reasonable price, but they should work more on the bugs that affect the piano sound.

I hope that the problem will be fixed soon by Kawai.

Doesn't Kawai test its new models ? Is it so difficult to discover problems that customers find the very first day ?

I also planned to buy a ca 63 or 93 but with all the problems already encountered (is there still the minimal amount of sound how slowly you depress a key ?), I'm not sure anymore.

Okay, tonight I did some more investigation regarding this issue:

It is definitely a problem of the damper resonance, combined with a quite dull mechanism to cut notes / effects, which should not occur on a sound system which claims to have 192 notes polyphony:

You can try for yourself if you have a CA63 or CA93, it's easily reproductible:
Press a lower key very loud with damper pedal down. Then press some higher notes very softly. Exactly after the 10th keypress the damper resonance effect of the loud low key is cut all of a sudden with a noticeable cracking and disappears.

I have no idea why KAWAI cuts the resonance already after the 10. keystroke. That happens all the time in many different music pieces! What about the 192 note polyphony? Where is it? Or is it just a poor design of the cut off algorithm? This should be fixed with a firmware update as soon as possible...

At least I found a temporary workaround that helps a little bit with this without setting the essential damper resonance effect to off: Just switch of the key-off effect. I can't hear a difference whether the key-off effect is on of off, so this is no problem for me. After that you can press 20 keys before the resonance off happens (including the crackling). That way the issue is not that obvious but still there.

Could it be, that the harmonic resonance of the strings is produced by playing back and mixing each respective sound sample of every note that resonates?

If it is, that would clearly drive even a 192-note-polyphony to its limits quite quickly. Your observation with deactivating the key-off-samples would fit into that explanation, for you save 10 extra samples while playing your ten keystrokes before the cut-off kicks in.

This is just a wild guess though - i have no clue how the string resonance internally works.

Well, KawaiJames has been on here saying that the Kawai sound production technique is not comparable with others making the polyphony comparisons across brands not meaningful.

However, it may be possible that from mono to stereo you lose half, then for each effect added you lose half again very quickly leaving you with next to no polyphony.

I also discovered this issue when trying the CA63 this week. I have to say that the cracking noise was really disturbing. This was also the first time I tried a Kawai digital with interest and my impression is that despite the cracking noise the samplings are not good at all, very similar to the previous models. I can also tell you that I used very good headphones for this assessment. Now I'm not interested in Kawai anymore.

The keyboard touch is what finally drove me to buy the CA63, this is the best keyboard action I've ever tried (except the real thing of course). The piano sound is a matter of taste, I'm quite pleased with it. But the cracking noise is a no-go! I really hope that KAWAI is going to fix this soon, otherwise I have to bring this beautiful DP back to my dealer. You MIGHT ignore this while playing live, but for a recording this is by no means acceptable.

kawaian,

What has your dealer said about this?

Has he taken the matter up with Kawai?

What has Kawai said?

I have not yet been talking to the dealer since I only recently discovered the issue (I just got the DP on Saturday). I requested a statement on this on the official German KAWAI forum (www.kawai.de), but no answer yet...

Wow, this thread is fascinating! Sounds like a software bug to me: running out of real-time, a mis-handled interrupt, or an algorithm error (most likely the latter). Smaller manufacturers are more prone to QC issues IMO, which makes me a bit leery of them.

Great sleuthing work kawaian! And I hope they can resolve your & their problem.

kawaian,

Do talk to your dealer as soon as you have the opportunity to do so. Kawai are much more likely to take notice of a complaint funnelled through a Kawai dealer, who can confirm the fault and (hopefully) push for a resolution.

I wonder whether KAWAIJames has seen this thread and whether he will alert Kawai to the problem (though I would guess they are already aware).

Thanks John_B, I'll do so for sure!

kawaian,

Thank you for highlighting this important issue.

My colleagues were informed of the matter immediately after reading your initial report, and have prepared a software update to resolve both the 'crackling' sound and polyphony management issues that you are experiencing.

This software update is currently being tested by KAWAI Europe, and once approved, will be made available via www.kawai.de.

I shall also contact you directly by private message as soon as the software update is publicly available.

Finally, on behalf of everyone at KAWAI, may I apologise for any inconvenience or displeasure that this issue might have caused. We are most grateful for your detailed bug report, and greatly appreciate your continued patience while the software update is being finalised.

Kind regards,
James
x

Good to hear James.

This would be a perfect time and place to also explain to us how Kawai utilizes its 192 note polyphony and how many notes are realistically kept in the mix with sustain, etc. Also, what the planned Kawai response is to the latest hybrid offerings of sampling and modeling techniques of Yamaha and Roland.

Kawai usually has comparatively more polyphony specified than competing brands which gives the impression that it has superior specifications. Given that the Kawai often gets higher marks for the keyboard action than for its sound from posters here it might make sense to stress any positive comparative advantage that the Kawai has over other instruments, for example an effectively higher polyphony or a more realistic sound.

Finally, for those that prefer the feel of the Kawai but might be less enthusiastic about its sound, it would be very interesting to learn what Kawai's policy and capabilities are for future software updates that would put current purchasers of the CA63 in a potential upgrade path (either free or in the style of Roland's Super Duper Realistic Piano upgrade for the RD700GX) towards Kawai's evolving sound.

Thanks for your support!

sieg66, may I please ask you to clarify exactly which problems you are referring to?

I am obviously aware of the 'crackling' sound and polyphony management problems highlighted by kawaian. However, if you have encountered further issues with the new CA93/CA63 instruments, please do let me know.



Yes, I believe this is a characteristic of the CA tone generator, but will try to confirm this point for you tomorrow. May I ask if you would consider this to be a serious problem?

Kind regards,
James
x

theJourney,

Thank you for the thumbs-up!

However, while I appreciate your interest in KAWAI's digital piano technology, I'm afraid I do not believe that this particular thread is an appropriate place to discuss matters beyond the issues initially reported by kawaian.

Yet, regardless of the time or place in which your questions are perhaps discussed, I expect the kind of information that yourself and a number of the more technically-oriented forum members are interested in reading about, is still considered highly confidential by KAWAI's R&D team. As such, I'm afraid it's rather unlikely that such sensitive topics will be discussed in a public forum such as Piano World.

My apologies.

James
x

KAWAI James,

thanks a lot for this (hopefully!) quick solution of the issue, that's what I regard as perfectly customerfriendly! I'm happy to hear that a fix is already underway (I just also got this information at the official German KAWAI forum). That's beyond my expectations!

Hopefully I can very soon report about a successful fix and then have even more fun playing the piano on my brand new CA63!

Hi KAWAI James,

I live in Canada and the CA63 is not officially announced yet. When it becomes available in North America, do you think it will already have the software update applied, or will there be a similar software update available? I understand that sometimes the software can be different for different regions.

Thanks,
Tony

Hello Tony,

That's a good question. I'll need to confirm this point with colleagues at KAWAI America, however I suspect that for the first few shipments, North American dealers may be required to update the software themselves.

Fortunately, this is a reasonably simple process that just involves copying a file to a USB memory stick on a PC/Mac, plugging it into the CA, then turning the instrument on.

Once the software update has been finalised, I gather that KAWAI America will make an announcement and provide the downloadable update via www.kawaius.com. Dealers will obviously be contacted and advised directly.



Correct, however I believe this is usually due to the different Demonstration, Concert Magic, and Lesson Function song data being tailored for separate regions - the instrument's main programme software is usually region non-specific.

Kind regards,
James
x

Hi James,
I have not yet tried the new kawai's, but someone here already spoke of the sustain pedal issues still there, like when you depress a key, depress the sustain pedal, repeat the key slowly and release the pedal and you get the second weaker sound.

Now there is this craking issue and you hadn't replied yet when I posted. Now you say that there is still minimal amount of sound, and I can told you that I find this unrealistic and that it reminds me that I'm not in front of a real instrument when I notice it.

When I tried pianoteq on my CA51 I easily cut of this minimal sound by slighlty modifying the response curb of the software, and I can't imagine that it would be a problem to do in the kawai software. Indeed, this minimal amount is variable depending on the touch you set and is louder when using hard touch (strangely...). So i think that it would be very easy to cut it of definitely. And it would be nice too if kawai could give us a total control of the key touch and not only modifying it by playing as it is the case currently.

In my opinion the default velocity response is not realistic, and other people have noticed it, and I guess I'll notice it when I'll try ca X3 models.

This is not so important, but this is irritating and can prevent from purchasing kawai models whereas the touch is really good. My piano vendor told me that many people don't buy a kawai because they don't like the sound and it's a shame because touch is far more important, and kawai sound is in reality not so bad. The proof is that Andree found it very realistic when she heard it in videos, but she found it deceiving when she tried the real thing, and it's because this sound is rather deaf and feel like coming from behind a filter or from speakers, or like being recorded, and not directly from strings.

Sieg66, actually I am a man but I know that Andrée is a female name in France.

sieg66,

Thank you for your response, and for clarify that there were no additional problems reported with the CA93/CA63.

When first playing the CA93/CA63 prototype models (used for owner's manual writing), I remembered to perform the '0 velocity' test and was initially unable to produce a tone. Then I increased the volume to the maximum level and was indeed able to hear a very feint sound. I knew then that this topic would eventually be discussed on the PianoWorld forum - regretfully I forgot to raise the question with the engineering team.

While this characteristic is obviously not present in an acoustic instrument, I wonder how often pianists are required to press individual notes very, very, gently in this way (ppppp?). May I ask if you can refer me to a piece of music (classical or otherwise) that would highlight this digital characteristic/flaw when playing?

Kind regards,
James
x

No it's not a problem when playing, it's just that it will be better if it emulates the real thing. For example the need for an escapment is debated by users but DP manufacters try to implement it anyway.

I agree that when you depress a key it's to get a sound, but a DP is often a substitute for the real thing, in the wait to have a real piano, so it's better if it acts the same.

And I confirm what I told about touch sensitivity, when using heavy setting the minimal sound is much louder than with the other presets and become very audible. I'm sure that kawai could solve this issue very easily by cutting the volume for the first velocity numbers.