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#1369445 - 02/09/10 12:12 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: R0B]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
I hate looping, but this was pretty well done, better than the P-155 IMO (but any looping not done down near the noise floor is a deal-killer for me). Nice blending of velocity layers, except at the high end.

Techniques and implementation almost identical to what Yamaha does in their DPs, which is very interesting.

I wonder why more DPs don't at least try to simulate sympathetic resonance? Too subtle and they figure few people will miss it? Perhaps, as it is often implemented a delay effect, it interacts poorly with the (generally rather poorly done) reverb?

-------------
- Kawai MP5 -
-------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_kawai_mp5.mp3
PROS:
- Nice long note decay.
- Looping isn't too obnoxious.
- Large dynamic range (~42dB, vel=1:127).
- This is a very smoothly blended multi-velocity layer sample set.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
CONS:
- Looped, but pretty well done.
- Samples are 3 to 1 seconds (lo to hi) with 1 to 0.5 seconds of crossfade.
- Obviously stretched, group transistions farily audible.
- Stretch distances: 5,3(x8),2,4,3(x17),2 = 29 groups.
- Velocity layer switch fairly audible (timbre change) @ vel=104.
- No key-up or pedal samples.
- No obvious sympathetic resonance.
OTHER:
- Volume in MP3 file very good, though there are HF (PC soundcard?) tones near the noise floor.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-09
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1369661 - 02/09/10 05:48 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Voltara Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 127
Originally Posted By: dewster
-------------------------------
- Yamaha YDP223 Grand Piano 1 -
-------------------------------
- I believe this is a very smoothly blended 3 layer sample set (spectral pan display).
- Layer switch (?, switch not audible) @ vel=80, 94.


I'm not sure whether Audition provides a way to script this, but I thought it might be useful for the layering test, to normalize the volume of each note. Sort of like "manning the volume knob", but done automatically. That way, there's only one variable (timbre) to consider, rather than two (timbre and volume.)

Here's an example of what I mean:

http://voltara.org/pw/yamaha_ydp223_gp1_velocity_normalized.mp3

I manually trimmed out the layering test in Audacity, exported to WAV, then ran a shell script (Linux user here) that used the "sox" utility to: split the WAV file into 60 pieces, one for each note (tempo 120 = 0.5 seconds each); adjust the volume of each WAV file to 90% peak; then paste all the pieces back together.

Listening to the result, it sounds to me like either a 2-layer sample with a broad crossfade in the middle, or maybe a filtered 1-layer sample.

I would be curious to know whether the spectral phase graph of the post-processed file reveals any more detail than the original.

Andy

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#1369663 - 02/09/10 05:50 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
What headphones are you using?

AKG K271 Studio.

I figured it out - I had a small amount of feedback through the digital I/O in the Echo MIA mixer. Cans sound fine now.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1369679 - 02/09/10 06:30 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Voltara]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Voltara
I'm not sure whether Audition provides a way to script this, but I thought it might be useful for the layering test, to normalize the volume of each note. Sort of like "manning the volume knob", but done automatically. That way, there's only one variable (timbre) to consider, rather than two (timbre and volume.)

I do it by applying one of several custom envelopes I've developed in Audition to the signal. It amounts to pretty much the same thing, but is actually a bit better for diagnostic purposes because it is a smooth envelope which can reveal small amplitude changes between layers. And you're right, it makes it easier to listen for timbre changes if the volume isn't constantly changing. It also makes the intensity of the spectral views more constant.

Originally Posted By: Voltara
Listening to the result, it sounds to me like either a 2-layer sample with a broad crossfade in the middle, or maybe a filtered 1-layer sample.

Yes, that is what it sounds like to me too. I guess I'm taking Yamaha at their word with the 3-layer thing, as the clues as to where the layers blend are too vague to see or hear. I don't see reference to the layers in the manual, but Sweetwater states "3-layered piano samples with DSS (Dynamic Stereo Sampling)".

Most DPs that have obvious layer switching tend to devote more of the layers to the upper end of the velocity, where the strings and soundboard display more non-linearity I suppose and get much brighter. Thus my comment No real variation in timbre at higher velocities - what you and I are saying boils down to the same thing. I am saying it in the context of other DPs, but but you are describing the effect more directly.

I looked at and listened to your file, but it didn't reveal anything I haven't already seen and heard in Audition. I do appreciate you going to all that effort though. And I'm very glad to see others doing some analysis on these files, and am hoping for more debate and perspectives on what goes on in DPs by studying the sound samples.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1369683 - 02/09/10 06:35 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=23fab7ed7f98c959d9d5c56d04dfa8b09482e6c03f68ebb40ac99885da44e881

Dewster,

I think the above should be a link to my shared MediaFire account.

The folder now contains three files...I deleted the original V-Piano file. I increased the output gain as per Lawrence's instructions to +12db. It is not as loud as I would've liked but I think it is significantly better.

All files recorded direct to CD via coaxial digital out from the V-Piano using Vintage 1, the default grand piano. Reverb (or Ambience as Roland terms it) is off.

1. V-Piano BS Detector at 120 bpm
2. V-Piano BS Detector at 60 bpm
3. Just the velocity section of your midi file played at 20 bpm

Cheers and thanks again,

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1369733 - 02/09/10 08:06 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
I increased the output gain as per Lawrence's instructions to +12db. It is not as loud as I would've liked but I think it is significantly better.

Yes, the level is much better, thanks so much for going the extra mile!

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
1. V-Piano BS Detector at 120 bpm
2. V-Piano BS Detector at 60 bpm
3. Just the velocity section of your midi file played at 20 bpm

OK, the velocity variations for the repeated notes in the layer detection test are different in all of the separate files. Which is really interesting.

I think Roland is (pick one):
a) not aware of it
b) trying to model reality
c) ignoring or content with an emergent behavior from their model

I think a combination of b & c is the most likely answer.

Too bad many hate the midrange, the V-Piano is head and shoulders above any DP sampler I've seen/heard. 3 second (max!) samples + loops suck.


------------------
- Roland V-Piano -
------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_roland_v-piano_vintage1.mp3
- S/PDIF to CD recorder.
- Factory settings except gain +12dB & reverb off.
PROS:
- Beautiful long note decay.
- No looping (modeled).
- No stretching (modeled).
- Sympathetic resonance, though very subtle.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
- Good dynamic range (~36dB, vel=1:127).
- Nice "loom of strings" pedal down sample, pedal up sample more of a knock.
CONS:
- Key-up sample not audible.
OTHER:
- Quickly repeated notes have somewhat random velocities (modeled reality?).
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-09
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1369743 - 02/09/10 08:19 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2231
Loc: Sydney, Australia
I've only listened to the 20bpm velocity reocrding, and I cannot hear anything resembling a velocity "layer" switch - it sounds extremely smooth. I listened both to the original recording as-is, as well as a shortened version where I stripped out a lot of the sustain from each note, to make it easier to detect changes in timbre by simply listening to the recording without performing any analysis.

Greg.

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#1369771 - 02/09/10 09:17 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: sullivang]
R0B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 1439
Loc: Australia
Hi Dewster,

Thanks for taking the time to analyse the Kawai MP-5

Just for your info, I set Damper Resonance, String Resonance and Key Off Effect, all to the midway setting: 5/10. Not sure if I should have set them all on max?

The HF noise you heard/saw, seems to be a result of using USB out, rather than the standard DIN MIDI connectors.

Usually I use MIDI cables into an Edirol UR-80 audio/midi interface, but in this instance, I used the usb out from the DP, straight into a new, fairly well specced PC.

I noticed the noise, too, but when I un-plugged the usb connection, and used the din connectors, the noise disappeared.
_________________________
Rob

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#1369838 - 02/09/10 11:00 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: R0B]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: R0B
Thanks for taking the time to analyse the Kawai MP-5

Just for your info, I set Damper Resonance, String Resonance and Key Off Effect, all to the midway setting: 5/10. Not sure if I should have set them all on max?

The HF noise you heard/saw, seems to be a result of using USB out, rather than the standard DIN MIDI connectors.

Usually I use MIDI cables into an Edirol UR-80 audio/midi interface, but in this instance, I used the usb out from the DP, straight into a new, fairly well specced PC.

I noticed the noise, too, but when I un-plugged the usb connection, and used the din connectors, the noise disappeared.

Normally I guess we are all more interested in the default, just to know what it will sound like "out of the box" as we assume the factory set it that way in the first place for a reason. But I'm very interested in whether these effects exist and how they sound, so if you feel like doing it again with them turned up, I'll definitely listen to it and archive the second sample with that noted.

Funny, our P-120 has a ton of digital bleed into the audio when we use the Yamaha "to-host" connection (glorified RS-232 with proprietary connector) - so much that we can't use the resulting audio in a solo recording. The MIDI connection is much quieter though.

I had an Edirol UA-25, kind of wish I hadn't sold it.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1369907 - 02/10/10 12:41 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
R0B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 1439
Loc: Australia
Hi Dewster,

Here is the link to the updated Kawai MP-5 file (take 2)

This time recorded with standard MIDI cables.

Damper Resonance, String Resonance, and Key Off Effect, all set to the max.

http://www.box.net/shared/29quyz7h2h
_________________________
Rob

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#1370168 - 02/10/10 12:14 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: R0B]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: R0B
Here is the link to the updated Kawai MP-5 file (take 2)

This time recorded with standard MIDI cables.

Damper Resonance, String Resonance, and Key Off Effect, all set to the max.

Thanks R0B!

The noise floor is MUCH better! Kind of ironic that the very USB connection you are supposed to use to record it introduces so much noise that you can't record it. MIDI connections, when done correctly, are opto-isolated at both receiving ends, which eliminates digital noise and ground loops. Back when real engineers designed interfaces and protocols.

I had to boost the left channel by 6dB to make it roughly the same as the right, not sure what's going on there but with the noise floor so low now it isn't a big deal.

I hear something very faint during the key-up of a loudly vibrating string. It sounds like a damper coming into contact with the string and damping it, rather than a "knock" like sample. It is very pleasant.

I don't hear pedal down or sympathetic resonance though. I'm wondering turning these things up for manual playing is indeed turning them up for MIDI playing? KAWAI James, could you weigh in on this perhaps?

The piano voice is very much on par with what Yamaha does in the P155 and is technically quite good for this price range. What do you think of the other voices, particularly church organ, strings, and harpsichords? And what do you think of the key action?

-------------
- Kawai MP5 -
-------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_kawai_mp5.mp3
- Edirol UR-80 for audio & MIDI interface.
PROS:
- Nice long note decay.
- Looping isn't too obnoxious.
- Large dynamic range (~42dB, vel=1:127).
- This is a very smoothly blended multi-velocity layer sample set (unknown layer count).
- Key-up & pedal up effect w/ vibrating strings subtle yet realistic & pleasant.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
CONS:
- Looped, but pretty well done.
- Samples are 3 to 1 seconds (lo to hi) with 1 to 0.5 seconds of crossfade.
- Obviously stretched, group transistions farily audible.
- Stretch distances: 5,3(x8),2,4,3(x17),2 = 29 groups.
- One velocity layer switch is fairly audible (timbre change) @ vel=104.
- No obvious pedal down samples.
- No obvious sympathetic resonance.
OTHER:
- Volume in MP3 file very good, had to boost L by 6dB to match R.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-10
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1370196 - 02/10/10 01:03 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: sullivang]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: sullivang
I've only listened to the 20bpm velocity reocrding, and I cannot hear anything resembling a velocity "layer" switch - it sounds extremely smooth.

It is also much smoother looking than the 120bpm sample.

Originally Posted By: sullivang
I listened both to the original recording as-is, as well as a shortened version where I stripped out a lot of the sustain from each note, to make it easier to detect changes in timbre by simply listening to the recording without performing any analysis.

Perhaps I'm being overly influenced by the amplitude view while listening, but the odd looking notes in the 120bpm sample sound a bit different to me than the other notes, but not like group timbre changes in a layered sampler (hence my updated review).
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1370217 - 02/10/10 01:39 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2231
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: dewster

Perhaps I'm being overly influenced by the amplitude view while listening, but the odd looking notes in the 120bpm sample sound a bit different to me than the other notes, but not like group timbre changes in a layered sampler (hence my updated review).


It would be interesting to repeat the 120bpm recording, with a short delay inserted in between each note (as I said before), to ensure that the notes have completely died away before the next note is played.

Greg.

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#1370248 - 02/10/10 02:15 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: dewster

I don't hear pedal down or sympathetic resonance though. I'm wondering turning these things up for manual playing is indeed turning them up for MIDI playing? KAWAI James, could you weigh in on this perhaps?


That one I can answer. When playing MIDI-Files the MP-5 (as many other KAWAI keyboards / DPs) doesn't record any sympathetic resonance / damper resonance effects, theses effects are only active during live play! I have no clue why KAWAI did this, but it's a a fact.

I was anxious about this with my newly purchased CA-63 and tried it on this new model, and am happy to report that at least this issue is now resolved: CA-63 does play all effects also when playing MIDI-Files.

That said, I will send you an MP3-File from my KAWAI CA-63 as soon as I have some time to record it, but this may take some days. Thanks for your great work!
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1370267 - 02/10/10 02:42 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: kawaian
That one I can answer. When playing MIDI-Files the MP-5 (as many other KAWAI keyboards / DPs) doesn't record any sympathetic resonance / damper resonance effects, theses effects are only active during live play! I have no clue why KAWAI did this, but it's a a fact.

Get outta town! Wow...

Originally Posted By: kawaian
That said, I will send you an MP3-File from my KAWAI CA-63 as soon as I have some time to record it, but this may take some days.

I'm looking forward to it, thanks!
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1370419 - 02/10/10 05:23 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: kawaian
[
When playing MIDI-Files the MP-5 (as many other KAWAI keyboards / DPs) doesn't record any sympathetic resonance / damper resonance effects, theses effects are only active during live play!


What other DP's behave this way? Thanks.
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1370568 - 02/10/10 09:18 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Melodialworks Music]
R0B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 1439
Loc: Australia
Thanks again, Dewster, for commenting on the MP-5

Your guess about resonance effects not being transmitted, turned out to be spot on!
Thanks to kawaian for the confirmation :-)

I don't do much midi editing, these days, so didn't realise the usb connection was so inferior to standard midi.
It's good to have had the opportunity to find that out.

As for the left channel level being lower, that was possibly due to the fact that this time, I didn't record the DP direct in to the Edirol, as I had it going first through a mixer, that I use for Skype.

(The pan setting on the mixer, was centred, but maybe the calibration is slightly out)

Re the other voices, I quite like the organs and EP sounds. Not mad on the strings, and not expert enough to evaluate the harpsichords, but I am guessing they are not great.
(I could knock up a quick demo for you, if you like.)

I mainly bought it for the piano sound, as I have better vst instruments for other sounds.

Key action is on the light side, tactile and responsive.
Suits my arthritic fingers well.

Rob
_________________________
Rob

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#1370715 - 02/11/10 02:36 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: snazzyplayer]
Dave Gruber Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 12
Loc: Whittier, California (suburb o...
I've been playing digital pianos since the 1980's. They've only been getting better and better during that time. The first ones were... well, not that good. I'm coming from the angle of just playing them live, as opposed to the midi file thing you guys have going, though there's nothing wrong with that. I'd just rather actually sit down and play one, rather than analyse it with a midi file. I went to the NAMM show and while there I played both the new Yamaha CP-1 and the Roland V-piano. Both very nice, but the Roland is the one that knocked me out. You guys have got to play one of those, with really nice headphones on. It's pretty unnerving how increadible it sounds and how it feels! These are the high end ones; about $5,000, but compared to a new C7, (not to mention a CFIII, or Bosendorfer, or the like), that's like pocket change. (BTW: I also played the Yamaha CFIII. Mmmm!!) And played a "Robert Weber" that had a VERY nice, sweet high register. But I'm digressing into acoustic realms.

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#1370751 - 02/11/10 05:32 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: dewster


And would the RD700GX sample be from the RD700GX1 SuperNATURAL piano kit plug-in board? The one with seamless this and seamless that (everything is seamless)? I'd be super interested in that!



In Japanese, but some info can be gleaned . . .




Edited by Piano World (02/11/10 08:37 AM)
Edit Reason: embedded video instead of link
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1370853 - 02/11/10 10:54 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Melodialworks Music]
Dave Gruber Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 12
Loc: Whittier, California (suburb o...
From what I can glean from Roland's website, (http://www.rolandus.com/products/productlist.php?ParentId=87) it appears that, yes, the RD piano sounds are sampled. I'm sure they are trying to get them more "seamless" all the time. I would also assume that the RD-700GX plug-in would be "as good" as the RD-700GX digital piano, DEPENDING on the quality/resolution of the playback engine (software in your computer, another Roland keyboard, or module?)

In contrast to the RD-700GX piano, which I have played (it's pretty good), the V-piano is NOT sampled but is synthesized, which means no looping, and it's increadibly clean and responsive. Roland has been working hard on this for years, and the results are stunning. (no, they don't pay me).
Try to find and play a Roland V-piano if you can.

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#1370871 - 02/11/10 11:09 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Melodialworks Music]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
In Japanese, but some info can be gleaned . . .

Wow, thanks Lawrence!

They're actually talking about velocity layers and looping (the dark underbelly of the DP world)!

And it looks like they're using something very similar to the DPBSD file to demonstrate them. I look at the spectral domain to see looping, not the amplitude domain or a dynamic phase display like they are doing in the video.

No mention of stretching though.

Everyone is able to blend velocity these days - it's not that big of a deal and the least of my worries, though blending is nice. Looping is the killer, with stretching second, velocity stepping third (provided there are enough layers and the transitions aren't too abrupt).

Blending is actually a problem, as the velocity layers become blurred and less easy to see, and so things get all subjective again and we have to rely on the manufacturer to tell us how many layers they used in the blend.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1370875 - 02/11/10 11:11 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Dave Gruber]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Dave Gruber
In contrast to the RD-700GX piano, which I have played (it's pretty good), the V-piano is NOT sampled but is synthesized, which means no looping, and it's increadibly clean and responsive. Roland has been working hard on this for years, and the results are stunning. (no, they don't pay me).
Try to find and play a Roland V-piano if you can.

Yes, it's quite amazing. Lawrence has one, and it just recently ran the DPBSD gauntlet. Many hate the midrange though, even with the latest SW load.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1370895 - 02/11/10 11:40 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Well, hate is a strong word!

The only comments I've seen are from Lawrence and Snazzy. They have both offered their opinion enough times for it to have made an impact on the forum but I haven't seen MANY people say they HATE the midrange...a couple of people have just said the same thing a few times!

I do understand that Lawrence has struggled to get on with it in the context of his particular requirements.

The V-Piano is not the perfect instrument...but then for each of us the perfect instrument doesn't exist...we would all find at least one or two things about any piano we are less keen on.

For my tastes the midrange is a bit less convincing on the V-Piano but the update is an improvement (and any perceived deficiency is an issue of taste rather than it failing to meet an absolute standard). The bass on it is to my ears phenomenal...I personally couldn't improve the bass or high treble and for overall playability (touch, response, subtlety, tonal change according to velocity etc etc), it is second to none.

Despite my above comments and the V-Piano's good showing in Dewster's tests if I had my time again, I wouldn't buy one actually and there are a number of reasons for this. But as a technological Tour-de-Force for Roland I think it is a towering achievement and shows us the future of DPs. In my opinion the future is modelled, not sampled and not hybrids...hybrids maybe for a short while but modelling is where the DP will reach the pinnacle of development in years to come.

Compare the Roland approach with Yamaha who by all accounts (at least by the standards of Dewster's revealing testing), have made almost zero progress between the P120 and P155. Yamaha actually specifically state in their brochures that they use extra-long samples...a second or two appears to be the reality!

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1370937 - 02/11/10 12:32 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Well, hate is a strong word!

Yes, hate is probably too strong of a word and/or blanket statement, sorry.

I should have said some picky people seem to be unhappy with them, dumping them, or otherwise staying away from them for various reasons.

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Despite my above comments and the V-Piano's good showing in Dewster's tests if I had my time again, I wouldn't buy one actually and there are a number of reasons for this.

See what I mean?! wink

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
But as a technological Tour-de-Force for Roland I think it is a towering achievement and shows us the future of DPs.

Oh, I quite agree with you. It sounds amazing in the DPBSD MP3, and if I could get that sound for ~$2.5k or less I'd be all over it.

More power to Roland with this incredible technology, we'll all probably end up with something like it sooner or later.

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Compare the Roland approach with Yamaha who by all accounts (at least by the standards of Dewster's revealing testing), have made almost zero progress between the P120 and P155. Yamaha actually specifically state in their brochures that they use extra-long samples...a second or two appears to be the reality!

Extra-long samples! For what year?

To be fair, this is one DP in series, and maybe I shouldn't have expected any significant changes? I don't know, but I did expect a substantial sample length increase. Either that or a substantial price drop. I guess it's 90% marketing at this point...

Also, we haven't analyzed the very latest stuff from Yamaha yet.


Edited by dewster (02/11/10 12:37 PM)
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1370939 - 02/11/10 12:35 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
Dave Gruber Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 12
Loc: Whittier, California (suburb o...
Steve: I started out (digitally) with the MKB-1000 and an MKS-20, which, together equal your RD-1000, pretty much. I still love the response and dynamics of the Rhodes sounds on that MKS-20 (same as your RD). SO PUNCHY! And of course, the piano sounds are all over recordings, however unrealistic they sound - they've become a "sound" unto themselves, like the early Roland drum machines, which sounded terrible compared to what they were trying to emulate, but also became sought after for their OWN sound.

If you get tired of your V-piano, you can give to me : )

Dave (in So. California, where it's actually been RAINING!)
____________________________________________________________
Roland MKB-1000, 88 key controller, MKS-20, Roland JV-1010 module, Yamaha DX-7 (yep, the oldie), Korg SG Pro X 88 key DP/controller, Yamaha upright. (Longing for Motif XS8 and Korg CX3 organ with Motion sound rotary speaker.)

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#1371014 - 02/11/10 02:29 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Dave Gruber]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Dave,

I totally agree with you...The RD-1000/MKS-20 sound emulates a piano very well in terms of expressive power but doesn't sound like a piano...it is far enough away from the real thing to represent something in its own right. And the two electric pianos are to die for. I actually think they (the RD and MKS) are the last instruments to have their own identity and will rank alongside the Rhodes, Wurlitzer and Yamaha Electric grands one day. I will be buried with my RD-1000, it is my most treasured possession.

I don't consider myself to be a musician, I think I'm a geek on the hunt for the holy grail...the piano sound that tugs at my heart strings...the perfect piano. I've come to the conclusion it aint out there and never will be! As far as the V-Piano goes there seems to be two reactions. Musicians seem to love the V-Piano...they don't analyze it or test it, they just make a connection with it in the way it responds to the player's inputs and in this respect it simply is the best keyboard on the market at the moment. I think a lot of musicians don't go beyond that, they don't over-think it. Piano geeks do seem to find something to criticise and I include myself here. I have listened in such depth and tweaked every last parameter trying to find "it"...It can't do what I want it to and I can't even satisfactorily put into words what that is!

So my torture continues but the V-Piano is something special, no doubt, just probably not for me in the long term.

If I win the next lottery here in Europe (jackpot £113 million), the V-Piano's yours!

Cheers,

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1371030 - 02/11/10 02:56 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
CP1 through the DPBS Detector is what we want!

I note the correspondence on the Yamaha Stage Piano thread...fingers crossed it might be soon with the CP1.

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1371094 - 02/11/10 04:25 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
7even Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 151
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
CP1 through the DPBS Detector is what we want!

I note the correspondence on the Yamaha Stage Piano thread...fingers crossed it might be soon with the CP1.

Steve


And the RD-700GX1 laugh
_________________________
Now: RD-700NX
Someday: Steinway concert grand :|

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#1371117 - 02/11/10 04:54 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9673
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: dewster
Funny, our P-120 has a ton of digital bleed into the audio when we use the Yamaha "to-host" connection (glorified RS-232 with proprietary connector) - so much that we can't use the resulting audio in a solo recording. The MIDI connection is much quieter though.


dewster, to clarify, are you saying that it's possible to hear interference from the MIDI connectors (or USB, or RS-232 etc.) in the recording?

Could this perhaps be improved by using higher quality/shielded audio cables?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1371133 - 02/11/10 05:21 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
dewster, to clarify, are you saying that it's possible to hear interference from the MIDI connectors (or USB, or RS-232 etc.) in the recording?

Could this perhaps be improved by using higher quality/shielded audio cables?

The "to host" connector on the P120 is a direct electrical connection between your PC and the DP. You connect it to a serial port on your PC using a special barrel connector at the DP end and a PC driver from Yamaha. Since it uses RS232 the signal swings below ground, which I believe to be the main problem with digital buzzing and hash ending up in the audio, though I haven't done extensive tests.

One thing that I did try was to use one of those line level stereo isolation transformers they make for car audio ground problems. (I used that on the line-level audio from DP to PC, obviously.) That helped some, but didn't completely get rid of the digital hash.

When you use the to-host connection, as well as line-out to your PC to record, you wind up with multiple ground connections, which can be a problem with ground loops and hum and such. Higher quality cables wouldn't help with that.

MIDI is opto-isolated and so avoids both bad scenarios. The P120 records fine when driven via MIDI - too bad it isn't a recording quality DP!


Edited by dewster (02/11/10 05:36 PM)
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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