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#1385712 - 03/01/10 04:03 PM Re: Digital pianos can never emulate an acoustic - the reaso [Re: Glenn NK]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: Glenn NK
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer

...as it is, (or haven't a good enough ear to tell when it is out of tune), ...

Snazzy


Hopefully you realize that this can also apply to people that exclusively use digital pianos and can't hear sympathetic resonance. wink


Of course it does, Glenn...why, do you have that problem?

I have an acoustic and a digital...I've never had to deal with that kind of issue.

Good luck. wink

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1385761 - 03/01/10 04:59 PM Re: Digital pianos can never emulate an acoustic - the reaso [Re: Scriabinghost]
sullivang Online   blank
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 1549
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: Scriabinghost
If somebody would be so kind as to direct me to any classical recording or demo on the web that shows a DP in a favorable light in comparison to an acoustic grand I'd be grateful because I'm eager to be convinced so I can have faith that I don't have to spend the rest of my life saving up for something I can't afford and have no room for.


I think the East West/Quantum Leap Pianos demos are excellent, however I am not a connoisseur of classical music:
http://www.soundsonline.com/product.php?productid=EW-171
I actually own this product, and it sounds just as good as the demos, HOWEVER, it has wrinkles regarding "playability", and has very crude sustain resonance (just samples with the pedal down) It would be good to have the sound of this product but sampled with the resolution of something like the Vienna Imperial. smile (I too am not all that impressed with the VSL sound)

Greg.

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#1385763 - 03/01/10 05:02 PM Re: Digital pianos can never emulate an acoustic - the reaso [Re: Glenn NK]
ocd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/10/06
Posts: 201
Loc: North East
I see a lot of "proof by incredulity": I don't believe it can be done, therefore it cannot be done.

ocd
_________________________
"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen."

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#1385794 - 03/01/10 05:33 PM Re: Digital pianos can never emulate an acoustic - the reaso [Re: snazzyplayer]
Glenn NK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer

Of course it does, Glenn...why, do you have that problem?

I have an acoustic and a digital...I've never had to deal with that kind of issue.

Good luck. wink

Snazzy


Fortunately I'm in the same situation, but because of the greatly increased richness in overtones, and in particular the sympathetic resonance from an acoustic grand, the cost of tuning is worth it to me.

OTOH, there are many people using mediocre upright acoustics, and for them, a really good digital may well be an improvement.

Glenn

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#1385866 - 03/01/10 07:07 PM Re: Digital pianos can never emulate an acoustic - the reaso [Re: Glenn NK]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: Glenn NK
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer

Of course it does, Glenn...why, do you have that problem?

I have an acoustic and a digital...I've never had to deal with that kind of issue.

Good luck. wink

Snazzy


Fortunately I'm in the same situation, but because of the greatly increased richness in overtones, and in particular the sympathetic resonance from an acoustic grand, the cost of tuning is worth it to me.

OTOH, there are many people using mediocre upright acoustics, and for them, a really good digital may well be an improvement.

Glenn


I just have a Steinway B grand...nothing special, it was well maintained and looked after, but it was an inheritance, so I've kept it all these years.

I'm not much on tuning and the hassle...but, to each his own.

I'm hoping the RD-700 or a CP-5 will be my next digital, along with the next gen Avant Grand for home.

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1385930 - 03/01/10 08:37 PM Re: Digital pianos can never emulate an acoustic - the reaso [Re: snazzyplayer]
Glenn NK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
Snazzy:

I think as long as we recognize that the DP and AP are different instruments, things won't get so messy.

But having both instruments, you know the differences.

An analogy might be the acoustic guitar (the sound of which is the wood body vibrating) and the pure electric (the sound of which is steel strings vibrating).

Perhaps it's time for the DP to develop its own unique sound, and to stop trying to emulate an AC.

The only concern I have with the DP, is that beginners may think that the DP and the AP are the same instrument.

Many years ago people would say to me, "oh since you play the piano, you can play the (electric) organ in church next Sunday." My reply was usually quite terse, "Not a chance".

Glenn

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#1385981 - 03/01/10 09:45 PM Re: Digital pianos can never emulate an acoustic - the reaso [Re: Glenn NK]
Art A. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/08/10
Posts: 145
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
The Roland 307 does have some sympathetic resonance in it. To what extent its been programmed or how well it simulates I don't know but when it was being demonstrated he made a point of holding a key with his right hand very gently so the key went down but didn't make a sound, then played a chord firmly with the left hand and released you faintly heard the key still being held by the right hand now ringing. Again, don't know how deep this goes but he did show it to me.

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#1386703 - 03/02/10 05:35 PM Re: Digital pianos can never emulate an acoustic - the reaso [Re: Scriabinghost]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1282
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
.
_________________________
http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D, Nord Piano 88, RCF TT08A speakers (live)

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#1387008 - 03/03/10 02:10 AM Re: Digital pianos can never emulate an acoustic - the reaso [Re: Dave Ferris]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3574
Loc: Amsterdam
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Originally Posted By: Scriabinghost
What this thread has demonstrated more than anything is that there of course is a whole range of approaches to piano playing partly determined by level, expectations, style, genres and experience...

We can all agree that the convenience and cost of using a DP is significant and we all probably use and have used some sampled or modelled instrument of some kind either for practice, out of financial necessity or out of preference.

I think genre is a significant factor. The demands for pianists involved in the pop, rock, light or Jazz based arenas may also be different to the extent that the full capabilities of the piano as an instrument are not realised as much as in classical playing.. I don’t play piano seriously in these genres and I don’t feel confident about backing that up but it would appear to be the case.

......... Some of these qualities are captured in today’s digital instruments but others remain to be fully replicated: these qualities have been discussed in this thread - dynamics, resonance, key action, the effect of the pedals, the “life” and responsiveness unique to a real acoustic polyphonic instrument. It goes without saying that it is impossible to master these subtleties on a DP because they are unrealisable..


....... I agree with those who say that a DP is for many reasons a better practical choice than a really bad acoustic piano but perhaps for a bundle of reasons not entirely musical.

Digital pianos have made no impact on serious classical playing and I doubt there are any serious classical pianists and few advanced students who use them as their main practice instrument even. No classical pianists use them to record classical piano. Of course why would they if they don’t need to but the real reason is that its unthinkable because the real instrument is required.

DP manufactures’ and creators of sampled instruments make bold claims about their products to seduce the public into thinking they are buying the equivalent of the real thing. That is one of my complaints. It sells short what a real piano is and what piano playing as an art is about. One thing that amuses me is how cunningly chosen are the demo tracks offered by the manufactures. They tend to emphasize the dry un-pedalled qualities of the instrument at the expense of the subtleties involved in music rich in dynamic contrast and complex pedalling.

Those in this forum who doggedly defend their DPs have every right to do so for their own reasons but in the content of the debate about their usefulness in classical piano they are just wrong or simply don’t understand the richness of the thing under discussion. Maybe this is what the manufacturers of DPs rely upon.

Perhaps its going too far to say that the digital will never emulate the acoustic but my experience is that although DPs have improved and go on improving, they are in some senses a different instrument altogether. It remain to be seen where they end up but they have yet to cross some divide or make a decisive leap into something quite different before they emulate a decent grand.


Excellent post here! thumb thumb
I'm very much in agreement with the fact of "selling" by the DP manufacturers.
The reality is that many DP players have never been at a high enough level to really experience the intricacies of the real thing, particularly a more high end instrument.

I'll just add that serious, advanced Jazz players still look for the same subtleties and complex detail in the instrument that Classical pianists do.

The DPs have made "Giant Steps" in the past 10-15 years, no argument there.
They are still light years away for both Pro and serious amateur players however.


+1

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