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#1371180 - 02/11/10 06:29 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9369
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Ah, I see.

Thank you for the explanation.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1371251 - 02/11/10 08:52 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: dewster

The "to host" connector on the P120 is a direct electrical connection between your PC and the DP. You connect it to a serial port on your PC using a special barrel connector at the DP end and a PC driver from Yamaha. Since it uses RS232 the signal swings below ground, which I believe to be the main problem with digital buzzing and hash ending up in the audio, though I haven't done extensive tests.



I might believe it is a ground loop or "digital hash" on the ground. But it's not the signal in the USB cable. The signal is not RS232 levels. USB uses two twisted pairs and each pair uses differential signalling and very little current. The differential drivers and receivers on each end do something like an optical isolation would do on an older system.

If I'm right then a good size ferrite toroid on each end of the MIDI cable might help a lot. Get one where you can loop the cable through multiple times.

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#1371260 - 02/11/10 09:15 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: ChrisA]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: ChrisA
I might believe it is a ground loop or "digital hash" on the ground. But it's not the signal in the USB cable. The signal is not RS232 levels. USB uses two twisted pairs and each pair uses differential signalling and very little current. The differential drivers and receivers on each end do something like an optical isolation would do on an older system.

Yamaha labeling it "to host" does sound confusingly USBish. It's a weird interface Yamaha dreamed up at some point I guess. I made a cable myself from an old broken hand-held scanner (for the barrel connector molded to a length of cable) and a 9 pin DSUB connector.

Plugs into my PC serial port. 100% RS232, which employs single-ended electrical signaling, which means there are ground currents, which means noise on the audio ground unfortunately.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1371531 - 02/12/10 05:31 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
pesk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 54
Loc: Czech Republic
Hi, here is the test file of Casio PX-330. I've added also Purgatory Creek demo. I hope these links will work.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/rnm3wmmn13r/dp_bsd_v1.3_casio_px330.mp3

http://www.mediafire.com/file/dqyz5mnzhtu/Casio PX-330.mp3


Edited by pesk (02/12/10 05:33 AM)

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#1371547 - 02/12/10 06:44 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci]
batak Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/26/07
Posts: 6
Loc: Vojvodina, Serbia
Originally Posted By: kawaian

That one I can answer. When playing MIDI-Files the MP-5 (as many other KAWAI keyboards / DPs) doesn't record any sympathetic resonance / damper resonance effects, theses effects are only active during live play! I have no clue why KAWAI did this, but it's a a fact.


Pardon my english but are You absolutely sure about that? 'Cause I did make a new Setup out of Concert Grand with Reverb OFF and Damper Resonance, String Resonance and KeyOff maxed to 10 and recorded MIDI file with it. When I playback the file with the same Setup all these effects can be heard or I might not fully understood what are You talking about on this matter.

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#1371573 - 02/12/10 07:54 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: R0B]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9369
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
R0B, may I ask which firmware version you are using on your MP5?

I'll have to confirm this point with the R&D chaps on Monday, however there have been a handful of updates to the MP5, so it's quite possible that the string/damper resonance over MIDI implementation has been added. This might also explain why batak would appear to be hearing the resonances.

I don't wish to get your hopes up, however please do check http://kawai.de/downloads_en.htm and consider downloading the latest software update (v1.15).

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1371575 - 02/12/10 07:58 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: batak]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
@batak,

here you can find several issues with the CA-51, CA-71, CA-91, among them also the MIDI Resonance Problem (unfortunately it's in German), and the MP-5 was no exception, I've tested that some time ago at my local dealer. I need to mention however that some of the issues are already fixed by newer firmware releases, so I would recommend to always install the newest firmware.

http://www.razyboard.com/system/morethread-ca91-kawai-122539-4944834-0.html
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1371618 - 02/12/10 09:33 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci]
R0B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 1439
Loc: Australia
Hi James,

Many thanks for pointing me to the firmware update :-)

It has been some time since I updated, and found I was using Ver 1.14.

I have now updated to the latest, Ver 1.15, and will try it out tomorrow.

Thanks again :-)

Kind regards,

Rob
_________________________
Rob

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#1371752 - 02/12/10 12:34 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: pesk]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: pesk
Hi, here is the test file of Casio PX-330. I've added also Purgatory Creek demo. I hope these links will work.

Thanks very much for those pesk! The levels are very nice. I noticed the E6 note did not play for some reason?

The PX-330 has somewhat shorter samples than Yamaha or KAWAI, and the decays of the lower notes seem faster as well. The looping is not quite as nice either, with a shorter crossfade. It does have the best velocity layer blend I've heard so far, nicely spread out and with no visible or audible timbre steps.

-----------------
- Privia PX-330 -
-----------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_casio_px330.mp3
PROS:
- Note decay is fairly long.
- Large dynamic range (~49dB, vel=1:127).
- This is a VERY smoothly blended multi-velocity layer sample set (Casio reports 4 layer).
- Responds to partial pedaling.
- Something going on with sympathetic resonance, but it's so subtle I can't hear it.
CONS:
- Initial low note decay is rather quick, with a leveling out later in the decay.
- Obviously looped, not quite as well done as Yamaha or Kawai.
- Samples are 2 to 0.8 seconds (lo to hi) with crossfade.
- Obviously stretched, group transistions farily audible.
- Stretch distances: 3,2,3(x16),4,2,3(x5),4,5,5 = 28 groups.
- No obvious pedal up/down or key up samples.
OTHER:
- Note E6 didn't play for some reason.
- Volume in MP3 file very good.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-12
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1371916 - 02/12/10 03:36 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Not trying to blow my own horn here, but for me anyway this project has been a real eye-opener. It has revealed the fact that KAWAI, Yamaha, and Casio can all do velocity layer blending well, they all incorporate roughly the same amount of note stretching, and their actual sample lengths are in the same ballpark.

It's also helped me nail down what were previously just vague impressions from demoing the various DPs in noisy stores. So far, my personal perception of DP sound quality appears to be highly correlated to actual sample length, how well looping is implemented, and rate of note decay.

In short, if a DP can't play individual notes fairly convincingly, then it doesn't sound very realistic to me when playing real pieces.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1372394 - 02/13/10 05:54 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: snazzyplayer]
CyberGene Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 718
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
I know everyone is now interested in the new CP-series and SuperNatural pianos, but HERE are two samples from Roland RD-700SX: 'Superior Grand' and 'X Ultimate'. Both are labeled as 88-sampled. Reverb is off, and default settings are used as would be it if you play the piano out of the box. The default setting for damper resonance is barely audible but if you like, I can reupload new recordings with the effect at max level. The piano also has string resonance feature which is off by default and I have left it off as well for the recording. Recording has been made in Sony Sound Forge 8, with Cubase SX as MIDI-player (at tempo 120), the main volume slider on the piano was at 80%, the wavs were then peak normalized to -1dB. The sound card is Creative Audigy. The cables were not quality ones and I have used USB-cable, not MIDI.

Dewster, please tell me when you have downloaded the files from the link above, in order to free hosting space.

I will wait for your analysis but to my ears both pianos have 4-layers, no stretching, obvious looping, obvious layer switching, almost nonexistent sympathetic resonance and they both respond to half-pedaling. The X-Ultimate is very short-decaying sound and I have never used it because the transition from ppp to fff has nasty jumpy quality I hate.


Edited by CyberGene (02/13/10 05:55 AM)
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#1372410 - 02/13/10 06:53 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
pesk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 54
Loc: Czech Republic
Thanks for review dewster. I have no idea why E6 was not played but during recording test I've recognized that sometime some note was dropped out. Maybe it's issue of my MIDI setup...

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#1372516 - 02/13/10 10:35 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: CyberGene]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
I know everyone is now interested in the new CP-series and SuperNatural pianos, but HERE are two samples from Roland RD-700SX: 'Superior Grand' and 'X Ultimate'.

CyberGene, I can't seem to get to that web page (it times out).
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1372656 - 02/13/10 01:20 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
madshi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 62
Works for me!

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#1372670 - 02/13/10 01:32 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: madshi]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Works for me now too... got them!
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1372716 - 02/13/10 02:34 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3083
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: dewster
Not trying to blow my own horn here, but for me anyway this project has been a real eye-opener. It has revealed the fact that KAWAI, Yamaha, and Casio can all do velocity layer blending well, they all incorporate roughly the same amount of note stretching, and their actual sample lengths are in the same ballpark.

It's also helped me nail down what were previously just vague impressions from demoing the various DPs in noisy stores. So far, my personal perception of DP sound quality appears to be highly correlated to actual sample length, how well looping is implemented, and rate of note decay.

In short, if a DP can't play individual notes fairly convincingly, then it doesn't sound very realistic to me when playing real pieces.


I think you should blow your own horn, digital or otherwise. This is a remarkably useful exercise, Dewster, and could be used for many years to come as a reference point for serious purchasers.

It may be a little early to try to correlate the objective analysis with the more subjective sound quality issues, but at the very least, as it becomes established, it will hold manufacturers to account over their marketing claims. In time, I think it will become clearer which elements, probably more through their interaction than as individual components, contribute to a "pleasing" experience for both listener and player. The big challenge will come when modeling becomes the rule rather than the exception, as the analysis will probably need to recognize much more subtle variations than velocity stepping or note stretching.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#1372745 - 02/13/10 03:06 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: CyberGene]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
I know everyone is now interested in the new CP-series and SuperNatural pianos, but HERE are two samples from Roland RD-700SX: 'Superior Grand' and 'X Ultimate'.

CyberGene, I really appreciate the files!

I agree with your evaluation except for the layer count. I believe the first audible layer transition in both is actually just a filter switch.

The decay rate on the X is way too fast, and the velocity transitions are quite abrupt and placed too high IMO. The sample lengths for the X are also rather short.

----------------------------------
- Roland RD-700SX Superior Grand -
----------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_roland_rd-700sx_superior_grand.mp3
- Cubase SX as MIDI-player, Sony Sound Forge 8, Creative Audigy.
- Factory settings & reverb off.
PROS:
- Very little evidence of stretching except (F#5,G5) - top octave or so is indeterminate.
- OK dynamic range (~31dB, vel=1:127).
- 3 layers (from spectral pan view) with some kind of filter switch @ v=38.
- Layer transitions at v=68,108.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
- Something going on with sympathetic resonance, but it's so subtle I can't hear it.
CONS:
- Note decay rate is rather fast (1/2 Pianoteq or less).
- Looped, mids and highs are not very well done (very "loopy").
- Samples are 3 to 0.3 seconds (lo to hi) with crossfade.
- Rather abrupt layer transitions.
- No pedal up/down or key up samples.
OTHER:
- Noise floor in file is rather high (-66dB) but otherwise fine.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-13


------------------------------
- Roland RD-700SX X Ultimate -
------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_roland_rd-700sx_x_ultimate.mp3
- Cubase SX as MIDI-player, Sony Sound Forge 8, Creative Audigy.
- Factory settings & reverb off.
PROS:
- Very little evidence of stretching - top octave or so is indeterminate.
- 3 layers (from spectral pan view) with some kind of filter switch @ v=58.
- Layer transitions at v=98,118.
- OK dynamic range (~31dB, vel=1:127).
- Responds to partial pedaling.
CONS:
- Note decay rate is pretty fast (1/3 Pianoteq or less).
- Looped, most obvious on the very highest notes.
- Samples are 2 to 0.3 seconds (lo to hi) with crossfade.
- Rather abrupt layer transitions.
- No obvious sympathetic resonance.
- No pedal up/down or key up samples.
OTHER:
- Noise floor in file is rather high (-66dB) but otherwise fine.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-13

_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1372781 - 02/13/10 04:26 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
CyberGene Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 718
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Dewster, thanks for the review! By the way, I think once I had time to play with the fixed velocity function for each key in order to analyze how many layers are used and I remember I had concluded there are 2, 3 or 4 layers per key depending on the pitch (basses used more layers that highs), but I may be wrong and also there may be a filter as you say.

Sorry for the noise floor. I didn't have a cable, that's why I myself fabricated one from three different cables and couplings smile

To be honest, I haven't used the internal sounds of RD-700SX ever since I got Ivory Italian Grand.
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#1372790 - 02/13/10 04:45 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: CyberGene]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
I had concluded there are 2, 3 or 4 layers per key depending on the pitch (basses used more layers that highs), but I may be wrong and also there may be a filter as you say.

Very good point. It's entirely possible they use different layers for different ranges, and it's something I don't test for. Not sure I really want to though, the layer test already drives me a little crazy. smile

Originally Posted By: CyberGene
Sorry for the noise floor. I didn't have a cable, that's why I myself fabricated one from three different cables and couplings smile

No problem, and thanks very much for going to the trouble of recording them!

Originally Posted By: CyberGene
To be honest, I haven't used the internal sounds of RD-700SX ever since I got Ivory Italian Grand.

Not trying to harsh on your RD-700SX, but I can't say I blame you. smile
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1372808 - 02/13/10 05:16 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Lawrence just sent me an DPBSD MP3 of the CP1 he got just today - thanks Lawrence! He gave me the go-ahead to post it for him.

They've done a good job of blending the velocity layers, but I think we anticipated that. The low notes have nice decay, but the mid and high notes decay rather quickly. The sympathetic resonance is rather typical for Yamaha, on par with the P-155 IMO.

The actual sample lengths are what surprised me. They hide it pretty well by doing a good job on the looping, but I was expecting something longer than what I've seen in just about every other mid-level DP so far.

--------------
- Yamaha CP1 -
--------------
FILE & SETUP:
- bsd_v1.3_yamaha_cp1.mp3
- Default patch 1 CF Grand (CF 3Band) Piano + PreAmp + MasterEQ blocks enabled.
- Cubase
PROS:
- Lowest notes have nice long decay.
- Good dynamic range (~38.5dB, vel=1:127).
- I believe this is a very smoothly blended 4 layer sample set with no audible layer switching.
- Visible layer switch @ vel=54,96,120 (spectral pan & phase displays).
- Sympathetic resonance.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
CONS:
- Mids and highs have somewhat short decay.
- Looped, though well done.
- Samples lengths are (C2:C9) 3,2.2,2,1.8,1.7,1.3,1,0.8 seconds.
- Audibly stretched at the low and high ends, no stretching of mids.
- Stretch distances: 3,3,4,4,4,2,4,3,1(x26),2,3,2,1,1,1,3,2,2,3,4,2,3,3,3 = 49 groups.
- No obvious pedal up/down or key up samples.
- Sympathetic resonance is echoy and reverby.
OTHER:
- Volume and noise floor in MP3 file excellent.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-13
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1372827 - 02/13/10 05:36 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
Originally Posted By: dewster
Lawrence just sent me an DPBSD MP3 of the CP1 he got just today - thanks Lawrence! He gave me the go-ahead to post it for him.

They've done a good job of blending the velocity layers, but I think we anticipated that. The low notes have nice decay, but the mid and high notes decay rather quickly. The sympathetic resonance is rather typical for Yamaha, on par with the P-155 IMO.

The actual sample lengths are what surprised me. They hide it pretty well by doing a good job on the looping, but I was expecting something longer than what I've seen in just about every other mid-level DP so far.


I'm curious as to how we know whether long decays/sample lengths are by default better than shorter ones? What if that's all there is to it at the mid and high and long decays and sample lengths are not necessary or natural there? This is not specific to the CP1 or Yamaha or any other makes. Just wondering over all because if the pattern is there between mid-level or high-level DPs then maybe it's because that's all there is to it and 99% of what's important to hear is already captured, and it's not worth the diminishing return to try to overkill at the expense of more expensive resources to capture the remaining 1%.

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#1372829 - 02/13/10 05:37 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
One thing. The dp_bsd file is based on the default settings for the #1 AP patch. Perhaps tweaking can adjust the sympathetic resonance somewhat. I haven't worked with it enough at this point to know for sure.

The specs, as revealed to an extent by the dp_bsd test only tell part of the story.

For me, the bottom line is how does it sound, and how does it play? Does it inspire me as a musical instrument?

The advantage of DP's is the sound / action / gesture connection. The disadvantage is that there are compromises made to the sound itself.

The advantage of sample sets is that there are not (usually) compromises made - since size doesn't matter. The disadvantage is that the sound / action / gesture connection totally sucks.

So, with samples, you can get a better sound, but only with post recording editing.

I don't want to do the editing because (a) it isn't fun, and (b) you can easily kill the passion in the music. So, at this point I'm opting for the DP option. (Although God knows I've tried to make samples work, and have purchased so many of them, it is rather sickening.)

So, I'm quite happy with the CP1 sound and response, and not actually all that concerned about the specs! (Just as I'm happy with how my Honda Accord V6 rides and drives. I don't actually need to know or care about how the magic is achieved! Perhaps, though, if I was driving a Toyota, my opinion might be different).

Lawrence
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1372836 - 02/13/10 05:44 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Volusiano]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Volusiano

I'm curious as to how we know whether long decays/sample lengths are by default better than shorter ones?


Good question. One of the parameters that can be adjusted is DECAY. The default setting is 0, and the range is from -16 to + 16. I wonder if adjusting this would make Dewster happier? (Probably not!)
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1372894 - 02/13/10 06:52 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2406
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Interesting. So the CP1 is according to these tests entirely ordinary and with the acoustic piano sound Yamaha breaks no new ground at all. On a subjective level though it seems to have been very well received. I'm very impressed with the few bits I've heard.

Dewster's test does make you wonder what you are getting for four and a half grand (£) though!

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1372906 - 02/13/10 07:06 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Interesting. So the CP1 is according to these tests entirely ordinary and with the acoustic piano sound Yamaha breaks no new ground at all. On a subjective level though it seems to have been very well received. I'm very impressed with the few bits I've heard.


The test is not taking into account aspects of the CP1 AP that are modelled, for example hammer hardness. Also, the approach to dynamics is new (according to Yamaha) and the proof is in the playing. It has a remarkable range and smoothness. Play it, and you'll be left wondering what the fuss is about, in terms of the DP BSD results. Adjusting the hammers on this instrument is amazing, and transforms the pianos! (And that is only one aspect that has been modelled).

The DP BSD is not the be all and end all - especially for an instrument that combines samples and modeling. (And also, let's not forget that the interpretation of the test results is to a certain extent subjective - and being made by one individual).
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1372940 - 02/13/10 07:46 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Volusiano]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Volusiano
I'm curious as to how we know whether long decays/sample lengths are by default better than shorter ones? What if that's all there is to it at the mid and high and long decays and sample lengths are not necessary or natural there?

You have a point, long decays on very high notes are often unnatural - particularly if the decay is a poorly done loop! But short decay is almost always used to hide looping, so I have come to look upon it as a negative. I want a DP I can run through a compressor and not wince at the output.

BTW, the first test in the DPBSD is "calibrated" to the note decay times of Pianoteq, just to have a rough (though admittedly very relative) reference point.

Originally Posted By: Volusiano
Just wondering over all because if the pattern is there between mid-level or high-level DPs then maybe it's because that's all there is to it and 99% of what's important to hear is already captured, and it's not worth the diminishing return to try to overkill at the expense of more expensive resources to capture the remaining 1%.

That strikes me as something of an apology, particularly when you have PC samplers and modelers absolutely killing them in the sound department. I think it's more that all of the manufacturers keep doing what they've always done, with slight improvements now and then, and people keep buying them. Nothing inherently wrong with that, and I'm probably expecting too much from the market mechanism.

As Lawrence notes, the timing between the playing and the sound is very important, as is the feel of the keyboard, and I think they've been concentrating on those aspects more than the sound (for my tastes anyway).
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#1372956 - 02/13/10 08:03 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Interesting. So the CP1 is according to these tests entirely ordinary and with the acoustic piano sound Yamaha breaks no new ground at all. On a subjective level though it seems to have been very well received. I'm very impressed with the few bits I've heard.

While the sample length is fairly typical, the looping is very well done (which I think is 70% of it), the velocity blend is smooth (15%), and the stretching is done over only the low and high ends, with the mids completely sampled (15%).

I think they've done all they can with a fairly limited sample memory size (though I would improve the sympathetic resonance and include some key-up and pedal up/down noises).

My (eternal) question is this: why go to all that trouble to shoehorn the sound into such a small space when ROM is so inexpensive? Surely the effort they put into doing this must be expensive (unless it is largely automated, which is possible, but surely not 100%). Can $20 (retail, mind you) of Flash be that big a deal in a $5k instrument? Particularly when it could so profoundly improve it AND reduce engineering NRE? I must be missing some important factor somewhere...
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#1372964 - 02/13/10 08:09 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
And, don't get me wrong, the CP1 sound pretty fantastic in the recordings I've heard. I'm not here to crap on it, only to reveal some of the technical underpinnings of its sound.

For me, though, I need either a bigger sample or something modeled that doesn't sound too fake. The beat goes on.
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#1372972 - 02/13/10 08:21 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Quote:
just sent me an DPBSD MP3 of the CP1 he got just today


People are saying the CP1 is much better sounding then the P155. I assume there is "next generation" level of improvement. But according to your analysis abut the only difference is that he CP1 uses less note stretching. I think there must be something more that is different. "Simple" things like how the model piano has mic'd or the size of the recording room or the brand of microphone could make a huge difference. So a question: What kind of test could capture this?

One other thing, You seem to not hear the key off samples. I know the P155 and other DPs tested have key off. (You should hear the key-off sample on the harpsichord voice, it is unmistakeable from across the room even with TV noise going on.) The P155 default setting it low but I can crank up the volume on the key off sample but that is not the way to go. I think, maybe your test is insensitive to key off.

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#1373009 - 02/13/10 09:13 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: TonyB]
kiedysktos. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 425
Loc: Europe, Poland
Honestly, for me it's the most valuable topic on DP forum so far. Thanks for your work!! Great job.
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