Minniemae brought up an excellent point in the "breakthrough" thread about teachers talking too much.
Could you please share your experiences in this area of keeping your mouths shut and successful results of doing so?
And exactly how you do this well?
Example: student is playing through a piece and missing things here and there and you are biting your tongue off trying to keep quiet.
Frances Clark's book does discuss this issue of teachers showing rather than telling. Perhaps specific examples of this could help us teachers further.

I've been a classroom teacher for many years now. The first thing you always have to point out to student teachers is they confuse 'telling' with 'teaching'. Talk goes in one ear, out the other - never a truer word spoken.

Well, I am trying to say "three" good things to "one bad" thing!

Seems to help lots! Trying to see some good really boosts their playing I think!

I admit I'm guilty of this. But sometimes my talking is more like thinking out loud. As I struggle to put a concept into words, it forces me to be clear on exactly what I am looking for.

This is so true, kbk, so true.

+1


I rarely interrupt kids playing in the early stages of piano study. Let them always play to the end of the piece, ask them to play it again if you think they needed to warm-up. Say "great piece isn't it! I enjoyed that thank you." Choose a correction, say "Try playing it like this" and 'sing' how it should go. You can point to the section of music as you do this.

Hmmm that's not really a specific example, I should try to think of a better one

When introducing a new piece, I'll often say something like "why don't you go ahead and get started while I type up your assignment sheet," then I'll turn around and start writing while they start figuring out the notes and rhythms on their own.

It accomplishes a few things:

1) Gives me time to write
2) Lets me hear what they're capable of on their own
3) Puts them in charge of their own learning - I assume the role of assistant and coach, instead of some dictator who just spoon feeds every new piece to them

Often I make them sing it from scratch. They surprise themselves with their skill.

Yep...encouragement often reveals hidden skill.

What we often fail to realize is that we see a score and hear music. Students mostly see a piece of paper with instructions on it (unless we do something about it).

Agreed, and I think a lot of adults, including very accomplished pianists, make the same mistake.

I sometimes ask a student to "present" everything that is on the assignment page to me and I will be writing notes on today's assignment about what I want them to do, but I don't say it to them while they are playing. I wait until they are finished.

I'd first celebrate any that were played so well that they are being placed on the "AAA" list. I'd continue to complement them on relevant things and thank them for the effort it took to play them all for me. Then I'll mention how much time it took to do the presentation all at once without stopping and say this was a good use of our time.

Then, I'll start commenting on the new list for the week:

I might start at the last song played and go back up the list.
I might start at the top and come down.
I might mix them up by separating and color coding on the page which ones are grouped:
Memorize
Review
Under Construction
or New (if we've had time to add a new piece).

I might identify which pieces had a similar problem.
I might rank them in which order of almost completed so the student could organize practice this week to complete the ones closest to being finished, or the ones needing the most practice. The student could choose how to work through this list.

I think the "talk" has been converted to a "do" list and there is some semblance of organization available for working it all out at home. It's hard to remember what was "said" at lesson, so this is said plus "do". At the same time, without interruptions you were able to hear all songs in progress without chancing that some would not fit in the lesson time frame.

Efficient and effective. I think so. For the student and for the teacher.

Betty

As a student I like this. Lessons are 1/7 of a week's time on an instrument. Some things we can't really learn until we put our fingers and ears to it, along with the goals such as you have set up. There is no way to truly understand what is said until we've "done".

Betty, do your students come back the following week saying "Now I think I understand!" after having worked through such things?

Ah! but what did you teach (and how did you teach it) that used no words, written or spoken? Yes writing will free up a lesson from being chockablock full of instructions and corrections, and this is very good because too many instructions begins to dilute their power. But do describe an example where you teach without telling.

Here is a nice example: Their piece limps a little, the rhythm is not strong and driving, maybe there were a few hesitations.

The Telling Way: You point to the problem areas and describe what was wrong and/or what it should sound like instead. You ask them how many beats does a dotted half note get. You both count out loud while playing through these spots. And so on.

The Other Way: Ask them to stand up and play a quick round of Left Leg Right Leg. Count 2 bars in, then slap your R Leg for every RH note, and slap your L Leg for every LH note while singing the melody (or approximate it). The quality of your movement and voice teaches subliminally the qualities you are looking for in the piece. Play it a number of times through, you can vary the tempo to teach them what Slow playing really feels like, and fast for fun.

The best part is they won't actually know they have been corrected (but the piece will be transformed in my experience). It's also a way to help a student who is struggling with how the grand staff works; don't explain just point "This hand, play those notes there. Let's go!"

But Barb860, if you were hoping for examples to save your breath I'm afraid this isn't one of them, oh dear

Canonie,

I love your idea of having the student "stand up and play a quick round of Left Leg Right Leg"! And that you have a name for it 'left leg right leg'.

Thanks the name isn't Very good but it'll do, I thought of it last time I mentioned the game in a post. But Yes, now I call it LeftLeg RightLeg in lessons. Haven't played it for a while... wonder who is coming today? Ooooh just remembered that I have a rather proficient new transfer who is playing a very fast piece in 7/8. Her rhythm was good, but missing that extra something that this piece neeeds (Chua's Midnight Snack). I have mostly used this for elementary students but this transfer will benefit I am sure, Yay! Thanks for the suggestion Ann Well it was replying to you that gave me the idea, hehe.

I love the Left Leg, Right Leg idea! I'm going to steal it.

One way I save breath is by letting the student talk. When they are done playing a piece for me, I just ask, "What do you think?" I do this because I'm curious if a student has awareness of trouble spots, and also to see what the student feels good about.

Sometimes I have to prompt a bit. A student might answer, "I think I need more work on this," and I'll say, "Why?" Or a student might say, "I'm having trouble with this part" and I'll ask them to explain.

It's often enlightening for both of us. And instead of the student sitting there feeling scolded as I point out problem areas, they are feeling good about their own ability to evaluate.

This is a great example! Anything to get us to talk less is good and I am going to try this left leg-right leg thing this week.

"Talk less and teach more"

I am extremely guilty of talking too much during lessons, especially to my best piano students. I go off on a tangent when talking about music theory, history, and even literature. Everything I say, though, is aimed at making the student a more well-rounded musician and, hopefully, a better person.

Why don't you do this as an exercise? Ask the student a couple of questions based on what you'd 'talked' the week before. Will they have remembered?

Good idea. I would call that "fractional anticipatory frustration response." But I haven't read the literature for several decades. Somebody here is a current psychologist - Monica maybe? and would know the current term.

You see, I think much of teaching is nonverbal reinforcement. And unless you are very good at poker face, I suspect the student is aware subconsciously of your disappointment, and will react to it.

It's not an either-or, you talk or you don't talk, because your posture, facial expression, eye contact, etc. is sending continuous messagess.

This is also a good reminder to be observant of your students. If they want you to talk, they'll probably ask you a question. If they don't, then they'll probably play.

If they don't do anything, it's probably because they're afraid to do either, and you need to figure out how to make them more comfortable.

Good point, but I'd add that very young students aren't that verbal. They don't think or talk in words to the same extent an adult does.

The most common answer out of them is "I don't know," but that may just mean I don't say it.

Probably the most important step we need to take is at the end of each piece, and then again at the end of the lesson. The student must summarize the main points for each piece/activity. If the student cannot do this, then the lesson has been ineffective.

Canonie: I just had a student play RightLegLeftLeg! She seemed to enjoy it, but she said, "I feel like a penguin."

very nice to hear - exciting to hear my game being played in a distant land. One day I must publish some kids music So, did it improve her rhythm and ability to read R and L hand on staff?

If you slap the front of the thighs the side to side penguin wobble is reduced, and slapping the front relates more to orientation when you transfer piece back to piano. There is one piece where I always play this game even before starting on it; Sailing in the Sun, piano adventures level 1. Do it fast, and faster, and Even Faster (singing the whole time). Oh and begin with "you be LLeg I'll be RLeg", swap, then progress to 2 legs.

That was one of the points in the Talent Code, that I've been recommending. Rather than long explanations, short phrases 'Like this, not like this, like this' 'how does that feel' See the difference?' 'you got it!' 'How do you want this to sound? Hear the difference?' And then all the reminders: "Lift with the wrists, like this, good!" "Use your whole arm" Etc. Etc.... Rather than long winded discourses.

Carol, that sounds just like me! How nice Well it's good to feel good about what we are doing yes?

The trouble with being an expert with all the answers is that you are way less likely to develop the expert-independant-thinking student. They have learnt that teacher always knows the answer and the student doesn't. I like to think of teaching like this: I point the student in the right direction and lay out the steeple chase course for them, they run the course while providing me with a commentary on their experiences and discoveries. I welcome their input and suggestions, e.g. if they make an "improvement" to a piece we write it in and that's the way they play it.

I don't think of myself as being an "expert" but I do have high standards for my teaching and my students have inherited (osmosis of teaching) strong motivation and discipline toward learning from me.

When I see and hear teachers talking about their students struggling with things I thank my lucky stars that somewhere at some point I got past struggling as a piano teacher about knowing how to teach and reach my students.

Once the teacher stops struggling, the piano student does too.

When it comes down to it, in reality, piano teaching produces a student who thinks like us, sounds like us and behaves like us.

We should "own" this as a thought before assigning "blame" to the students that it is their fault that they can't learn and that the "breakthrough" belongs to the student. It's highly relevant that when the student has a breakthrough it may be us who has also had a breakthrough in communication and teaching.

I'm not trying to start a "war" I am simply relating my personal experience and thoughts about what piano teaching is all about from my perspective.

Expert and experience are similarly rooted words.

Creating and giving good experiences should be the mainstay of our teaching.

Betty Patnude

I could not disagree more. I don't want students to think like me, sound like me or behave like me. I want them to be themselves in the very best ways possible. It's not my job to replicate myself. It's to create independent, thoughtful musicians. That's why we explore the ideas of many, not just mine.

I agree with Betty that "once the teacher stops struggling, the student does, too".
But I agree with Minniemay on the point above, about students sounding, thinking, and behaving like me as their teacher. This goes against my grain, right or wrong, and no disrespect meant towards Betty and her opinion.
My goal is not to mold students to my way of thinking and playing, but to get them to think for themselves and listen for "their sound" to come out. As soon as the student takes ownership of the piece, it becomes theirs to shape into what they want it to be. Of course we educated them but the end result is always their playing and interpretation.

The thinking and sounding like us can be powerful teaching tools. Students can be Very inspired by the way you play a piece, and how much you connect with that composer's music and ideas; teaching by modelling at it's most powerful. But I would want to explicitly look for ways to get student to think like themselves, and teach them that their own ideas and musical solutions are interesting to me, and even more interesting to the student themselves. How can you be an independant musician if you don't enjoy your own musical ideas?

As far as "behaves like us", do you actually mean this? I'm trying to see how this would work but I can only imagine that with a few students it would lead to conflict, stress, "attitude" problems and the student leaving. Well I don't suppose this is too much of a problem because this kind of student can then go to a teacher who has a "behave like yourself" model.

Perhaps you mean it more along the lines of teacher demonstrates disciplined daily practice, then student copies this behaviour because he or she understands the results will be good


This quote I like. It suggests more of a coaching than a telling model, and touches on inspiration and motivation - can't have too much of these!

Canonie,

I don't know where you and others come up with the idea that I make the student sound like me - they of course have their own talents and skills going as well as the knowledge they acquire and use.

The road to musicianship is a long trail of knowing and doing.

When I say my students sound like me, I mean in the fact that they paid attention, followed through, make corrections, improved their playing. They play musically and meaningfully.

The final out put is that when they are advancing and independent they play and read as well as I do - not that every sound is like mine, and they are the music they choose to play when they are independently working on the piano represents their choices as well as mine.

I do not create clones, but as I've said before my students meet my high standards of work ethics and plateaus and break throughs are not in their domain nor in mine.

I think it's because we get it right the first time.

Yes, I mean the student behaves like us. If the student is having problems in their lessons I think it is usually attritable to the teacher not having cleanly and clearly prepared lessons plans to teach from. The structure of what is selected for the lesson is a very important part of that.

Having studied some pedagogy for a long time now, I understand what music teaching is all about. You have to teach every concept in music and then you have to make sure that the concepts stay learned and retrieval as the long term picture.

There is a long term picture and every lesson leads to reaching the long term. Today's lesson is part of a continuum. A well planned continuum.

Avoiding problems is skill on the teachers part.

My last teacher made no bones about leaning over and circling an error in pencil during my playing. Or if timing was off, he'd beat on the music stand and sing "Bah, bu-pah, bah" or pencil in a 'one and two and' etc.

I recall that once he sat behind the piano for an entire 'lesson' in an easy chair, reading. I was just glad he wasn't inspecting my fingering that day. He really had no business teaching. Frustrated conductor, I heard.

Probably through reading this:

My use of "expert" in my earlier post might have confused things. I meant that it is important that the teacher doesn't act and speak "like an expert" in lessons. This is very relevant to the topic when you think of the poor teacher biting her/his tongue as the list of possible corrections grows longer and longer. Of course a teacher who has effectively mastered talk less and teach more could be regarded as more expert, just displayed in a more subtle way.

Betty I didn't quite understand what you meant which is why I questioned it. Your post above describes creating independant students - yes, that's how it should be! I had misunderstood your words about "a student who thinks like us, sounds like us and behaves like us". Thank you for clarifying. And I'll tell you why I felt the need to respond:-

I have had a bit to do with a few teachers who tell the student exactly what to do, which pieces to play and how to play every bar of every piece so that it is truly beautiful. The sort of student who does well will have other musical outlets; maybe another instrument, school band, orchestra, choir or lots of music at home.

But for those students whose only music learning is with a follow-me-the-expert piano teacher it can sad and frustrating in the longer term, and I believe it's harder for these students to become musicians. So you can see why the choice of words worried me a bit.

I hope I am an Expert too but I plan to continue to teach by stealth...

Perhaps the one thing you can't teach is independence of mind. Most want a follow-me-the-expert experience not, hopefully, that they get it.

Kbk
yes sadly one can't have that great an influence... actually it's probably a good thing!
In my experience, the majority of my students are independant little people. Maybe I attract this type i.e. their parents come to me after exasperation and failure with a teacher who is just a little further along the "do it my way" spectrum. Actually I'm sure of this, I am remembering that this has been offered as a particular reason for matching children with me. It's not a clear cut one way is better or worse, as I have a family who sends one child to the top competition-winning expert in town, and the stubborn and independant child to me (er, thanks!). Parents will often try to find a good personality/teaching-style match for the child, not just a useful teacher.

Some years ago when I tried out a few teachers for me I was rather apalled at the "just follow what I say and I know you'll get there" teaching styles. I hated not being treated like a .. well like an adult I guess. But I know many reasonable people who were more than happy with the lessons these teachers offered, and recommended them to me. Learning can be uncomfortable, challenging.

Betty,
Betty,
"students meet my high standards of work ethics and plateaus and break throughs are not in their domain nor in mine."

(I still can't figure out the quote boxes!)

Do you feel like you get it right the first time with each and every student? Do you ever have a student that you feel you haven't clicked with, has a different style than you do, and doesn't progress in the way you would like? Do some of them have an attitude that isn't conducive to learning?

With as long as you have been teaching, I'm wondering if you have fewer of these issues with students than some of us newer teachers have. It's nice to know that there is hope!

It sounds like what you are saying is that if there are Breakthroughs and plateaus, there is something wrong with the teaching. Do you think that if things are taught correctly, there should be a steady curve of improvement.

Carol,

Pedagogues say "get it right the first time and avoid a lot of time and effort that would be spent in trying to correct something. I think that slowly and carefully putting things into place (concepts and first efforts) with the student leads to avoiding errors and bad habits. I think our guidance is needed in the first year or even two when a student gets new music. One of the biggest contributors working against us is having students work on their own to build a piece when they don't have already have all the skills in place to be able to play it. A concept can take many applications before it is learned and used by the student - telling it, demonstrating once is not enough.

We are building circuitry and networks in our students brains and what is there is the path being followed by the student in how he approaches the piano and the music. His experiences are either solid or they are shaky - or combinations there of - he is a work in progress.

I really do believe it's the teacher's responsibility to put these things into place. It has little to do with the students talents and positive profile for piano study. Students can acquire skills during lessons and those that plodded in the beginning can with discipline and motivation exceed the long term accomplishments of the ones who started their piano lessons strongly. Some kids are equipped to handle frustration better than others and some kids want to quit at the first sign of difficulty.

I think you captured what I was saying, Carol.

Carol, do you think lesson planning for the individual student might be an important part to keeping things on that steady curve to improvement.

I want to clarify that I had as many fiascos as anyone else before I installed my piano studio policies, found my weaknesses in piano teaching and improved upon my teaching over many, many years. I always looked for missing links and took on big responsibilities to find out where they existed in my teaching. I had the help of lots of workshops, seminars and programs by real people - lots of hours - years of information gathering. Every meeting was an opportunity to learn something even if one thing was found during several hours of discussion, I always considered every minute of my time to have been worth it.

The other breakthrough I think I had in my teaching was when I designed a curriculum and method of my own to meet individual needs. It is a structured and sequenced process but from within the program individual needs can be addressed as they come up with a student. Moving about the documents I have created is easy to do. I believe in having many resources available and today, we have those resources better than ever in history fully available for us to reach out and get the information we need.

The teacher is the dynamo to the student and must be fully functioning in evaluating the students needs. Method books do nothing to help us with that. Pedagogy is the answer to those kinds of questions and help is readily available in that today more than ever too.

I hope I haven't set myself up to be trapped in my own words but I stand behind what I'm saying because from my viewpoint it's what I have to profess. Not that it should be "imitated" - each teacher much find their own "vision" and "philosophies" and "accountability" in music teaching.

Yes, we are often given some big challenges to meet, but I think it's true that if we're made out of the right stuff, we also have big enough "shoulders" upon which to meet those challenges.

If what we are saying and doing isn't working, I believe it's up to us to examine ourselves. There is always hope!

Betty

The moment I read that, I was sure it would be misunderstood.

Let me share what I do, and see if you have any disgreements. I want to teach my students how I think. I want to transmit everything I know about music and playing the piano to every student I have. Quite obviously that that can't happen. It's just a dream. But I do try to transmit everything I can, and years of teaching have given me a good plan about when to transmit what.

Sound is more specific. There I am trying to demonstrate/teach any skills I have that allow me to express myself, but there is always an overlap with pure technical skills that allow us to interpret/express.

Behavoir? The only thing I want there is mutual respect, and I work towards that by TRYING to always give it.

But I never want my students to sound like me. I go to huge pains to avoid that, including demonstrating any passage or section of any piece played many different ways, always finishing up with, "YOU choose what speaks to YOU even if it is a different choice from the one I would make."

I think a positive profile for a student would include wanting to learn how to play the piano, and seeing it as something that they truly want to be part of their life. Without that, all of the things that I'm sure all of us devoted teachers on this forum do: curriculum and lesson planning, workshops, higher education, conferences and self-examination aren't going to do a lot of good.

It sounds like you are saying that the students who plods in the beginning, who perhaps doesn't possess as much natural talent, might later excel - and after going through a plateau might even have a breakthrough?

Lets get back to topic - how much we talk during lessons. That was interesting, and worth pursuing.

Showing/teaching a student how to make their own choices is the thing that will hopefully make them very similar to their teacher! It's a little bit of a semantic quicksand.... What a teacher aims for is to equip a student to be an independent musician bringing a wide range of skills to each new pianistic challenge, whether that is improvisation, accompanying, playing something by ear or performing in a recital. That's (hopefully) what the teacher is, and what the teacher aims to foster in the student.

Meantime, talking less, teaching more: some of the contributions here have effectively been about using less words, rather than about teaching in ways where concepts are communicated without the need for verbal instruction or explanation. Words are really important in communication, but I do think that there is much that is accomplished through activities rather than 'text'.......

Recently returning to teaching after the long summer break I noticed some students dropping into a slouch more than usual. In one lesson I patted the student's lower back countless times, it was rather comical. pat - UP! ... sluuuummmmp. pat - UP! ... slllluuuuump. pat UP! lol
I'm glad I didn't have to use words! She thought it was funny too.

I once taught a group class of about 16 people (not piano) in complete silence. Not one word until thank you and goodbye at the end. I remember I was in a non-happy mood, began in silence (which was my normal way to begin) and then stayed silent for an hour and a half. The class was able to pay More attention, and i think they learnt more. Speech that delivers information is such a powerful tool that it is a shame to waste where other modes work just as well. I like to save talking for where there is no other way.

And then it makes so much more impact. Instead of "the teacher's talking, turn off now"

Wow, isn't that the truth!!!

I served my time teaching in the public school system.

Join the club!!

Picking up on what Betty wrote earlier:

There are certain traits/behaviors that I definitely want my piano students to copy from me--

1) Collecting and READING on lots of music books!
2) Playing new piano music every day!
3) Listening to great music (mostly classical) every day!
4) Thinking about how music conveys feelings, thoughts, and emotions!

Of course, I don't want to clone myself 100 times over; eventually, I want my students to start thinking for themselves and making their own artistic decisions. My favorite saying to my student: "So, what are you going to do with this passage when you are 40 years old? Are you going to call me up and ask me for my fingering? I'll probably be dead by then!"

We usually don't get to that "think for yourself" stage, though, until the student starts to play The Well-tempered Clavier or Beethoven Sonatas. There's still plenty of "copy me" going on as we plow through the Kuhlau Sonatinas and Chopin Waltzes.

I recently realized that I learned something through what my teacher didn't say, by the fact that he didn't say it. I have run into teachers here and there who will tell me that students commonly have problems with this and that, and describe the problem. They will say what thing should be done to prevent that problem, or how what they are introducing will avoid that problem. Guess what happens? As a student, my mind will picture that problem and steer right toward it. I was never told about problems. Mostly I was shown, or asked to do something which resulted in something happening that ought to happen. I learned to aim toward whatever it was that I was supposed to reach and trust that I would reach it. I was not told in words "Aim toward ... " I was made to experience it.

I like to get the kids thinking for themselves SERIOUSLY early on...... Like before they can play anything from the Anna Magdalena Notebook......

By asking students to challenge what's on the page they end up taking responsibility for their performance choices, rather than simply seeking to realise a set of instructions. We change the tonality, the speed, the dynamics, the structure, the articulation, whatever - even the title - and then come back to the original and the student has this deep understanding of the choices implicit in the performance they give. Often the student has created their own new compositions in the process of their exploring, an extra bonus.

"Play" with it?

Exactly!!