Minniemae brought up an excellent point in the "breakthrough" thread about teachers talking too much.
Could you please share your experiences in this area of keeping your mouths shut and successful results of doing so?
And exactly how you do this well?
Example: student is playing through a piece and missing things here and there and you are biting your tongue off trying to keep quiet.
Frances Clark's book does discuss this issue of teachers showing rather than telling. Perhaps specific examples of this could help us teachers further.

I've been a classroom teacher for many years now. The first thing you always have to point out to student teachers is they confuse 'telling' with 'teaching'. Talk goes in one ear, out the other - never a truer word spoken.

Well, I am trying to say "three" good things to "one bad" thing!

Seems to help lots! Trying to see some good really boosts their playing I think!

I admit I'm guilty of this. But sometimes my talking is more like thinking out loud. As I struggle to put a concept into words, it forces me to be clear on exactly what I am looking for.

This is so true, kbk, so true.

+1


I rarely interrupt kids playing in the early stages of piano study. Let them always play to the end of the piece, ask them to play it again if you think they needed to warm-up. Say "great piece isn't it! I enjoyed that thank you." Choose a correction, say "Try playing it like this" and 'sing' how it should go. You can point to the section of music as you do this.

Hmmm that's not really a specific example, I should try to think of a better one

When introducing a new piece, I'll often say something like "why don't you go ahead and get started while I type up your assignment sheet," then I'll turn around and start writing while they start figuring out the notes and rhythms on their own.

It accomplishes a few things:

1) Gives me time to write
2) Lets me hear what they're capable of on their own
3) Puts them in charge of their own learning - I assume the role of assistant and coach, instead of some dictator who just spoon feeds every new piece to them

Often I make them sing it from scratch. They surprise themselves with their skill.

Yep...encouragement often reveals hidden skill.

What we often fail to realize is that we see a score and hear music. Students mostly see a piece of paper with instructions on it (unless we do something about it).

Agreed, and I think a lot of adults, including very accomplished pianists, make the same mistake.

I sometimes ask a student to "present" everything that is on the assignment page to me and I will be writing notes on today's assignment about what I want them to do, but I don't say it to them while they are playing. I wait until they are finished.

I'd first celebrate any that were played so well that they are being placed on the "AAA" list. I'd continue to complement them on relevant things and thank them for the effort it took to play them all for me. Then I'll mention how much time it took to do the presentation all at once without stopping and say this was a good use of our time.

Then, I'll start commenting on the new list for the week:

I might start at the last song played and go back up the list.
I might start at the top and come down.
I might mix them up by separating and color coding on the page which ones are grouped:
Memorize
Review
Under Construction
or New (if we've had time to add a new piece).

I might identify which pieces had a similar problem.
I might rank them in which order of almost completed so the student could organize practice this week to complete the ones closest to being finished, or the ones needing the most practice. The student could choose how to work through this list.

I think the "talk" has been converted to a "do" list and there is some semblance of organization available for working it all out at home. It's hard to remember what was "said" at lesson, so this is said plus "do". At the same time, without interruptions you were able to hear all songs in progress without chancing that some would not fit in the lesson time frame.

Efficient and effective. I think so. For the student and for the teacher.

Betty

As a student I like this. Lessons are 1/7 of a week's time on an instrument. Some things we can't really learn until we put our fingers and ears to it, along with the goals such as you have set up. There is no way to truly understand what is said until we've "done".

Betty, do your students come back the following week saying "Now I think I understand!" after having worked through such things?

Ah! but what did you teach (and how did you teach it) that used no words, written or spoken? Yes writing will free up a lesson from being chockablock full of instructions and corrections, and this is very good because too many instructions begins to dilute their power. But do describe an example where you teach without telling.

Here is a nice example: Their piece limps a little, the rhythm is not strong and driving, maybe there were a few hesitations.

The Telling Way: You point to the problem areas and describe what was wrong and/or what it should sound like instead. You ask them how many beats does a dotted half note get. You both count out loud while playing through these spots. And so on.

The Other Way: Ask them to stand up and play a quick round of Left Leg Right Leg. Count 2 bars in, then slap your R Leg for every RH note, and slap your L Leg for every LH note while singing the melody (or approximate it). The quality of your movement and voice teaches subliminally the qualities you are looking for in the piece. Play it a number of times through, you can vary the tempo to teach them what Slow playing really feels like, and fast for fun.

The best part is they won't actually know they have been corrected (but the piece will be transformed in my experience). It's also a way to help a student who is struggling with how the grand staff works; don't explain just point "This hand, play those notes there. Let's go!"

But Barb860, if you were hoping for examples to save your breath I'm afraid this isn't one of them, oh dear

Canonie,

I love your idea of having the student "stand up and play a quick round of Left Leg Right Leg"! And that you have a name for it 'left leg right leg'.

Thanks the name isn't Very good but it'll do, I thought of it last time I mentioned the game in a post. But Yes, now I call it LeftLeg RightLeg in lessons. Haven't played it for a while... wonder who is coming today? Ooooh just remembered that I have a rather proficient new transfer who is playing a very fast piece in 7/8. Her rhythm was good, but missing that extra something that this piece neeeds (Chua's Midnight Snack). I have mostly used this for elementary students but this transfer will benefit I am sure, Yay! Thanks for the suggestion Ann Well it was replying to you that gave me the idea, hehe.

I love the Left Leg, Right Leg idea! I'm going to steal it.

One way I save breath is by letting the student talk. When they are done playing a piece for me, I just ask, "What do you think?" I do this because I'm curious if a student has awareness of trouble spots, and also to see what the student feels good about.

Sometimes I have to prompt a bit. A student might answer, "I think I need more work on this," and I'll say, "Why?" Or a student might say, "I'm having trouble with this part" and I'll ask them to explain.

It's often enlightening for both of us. And instead of the student sitting there feeling scolded as I point out problem areas, they are feeling good about their own ability to evaluate.

This is a great example! Anything to get us to talk less is good and I am going to try this left leg-right leg thing this week.

"Talk less and teach more"

I am extremely guilty of talking too much during lessons, especially to my best piano students. I go off on a tangent when talking about music theory, history, and even literature. Everything I say, though, is aimed at making the student a more well-rounded musician and, hopefully, a better person.

Why don't you do this as an exercise? Ask the student a couple of questions based on what you'd 'talked' the week before. Will they have remembered?

Good idea. I would call that "fractional anticipatory frustration response." But I haven't read the literature for several decades. Somebody here is a current psychologist - Monica maybe? and would know the current term.

You see, I think much of teaching is nonverbal reinforcement. And unless you are very good at poker face, I suspect the student is aware subconsciously of your disappointment, and will react to it.

It's not an either-or, you talk or you don't talk, because your posture, facial expression, eye contact, etc. is sending continuous messagess.

This is also a good reminder to be observant of your students. If they want you to talk, they'll probably ask you a question. If they don't, then they'll probably play.

If they don't do anything, it's probably because they're afraid to do either, and you need to figure out how to make them more comfortable.

Good point, but I'd add that very young students aren't that verbal. They don't think or talk in words to the same extent an adult does.

The most common answer out of them is "I don't know," but that may just mean I don't say it.

Probably the most important step we need to take is at the end of each piece, and then again at the end of the lesson. The student must summarize the main points for each piece/activity. If the student cannot do this, then the lesson has been ineffective.

Canonie: I just had a student play RightLegLeftLeg! She seemed to enjoy it, but she said, "I feel like a penguin."

very nice to hear - exciting to hear my game being played in a distant land. One day I must publish some kids music So, did it improve her rhythm and ability to read R and L hand on staff?

If you slap the front of the thighs the side to side penguin wobble is reduced, and slapping the front relates more to orientation when you transfer piece back to piano. There is one piece where I always play this game even before starting on it; Sailing in the Sun, piano adventures level 1. Do it fast, and faster, and Even Faster (singing the whole time). Oh and begin with "you be LLeg I'll be RLeg", swap, then progress to 2 legs.

That was one of the points in the Talent Code, that I've been recommending. Rather than long explanations, short phrases 'Like this, not like this, like this' 'how does that feel' See the difference?' 'you got it!' 'How do you want this to sound? Hear the difference?' And then all the reminders: "Lift with the wrists, like this, good!" "Use your whole arm" Etc. Etc.... Rather than long winded discourses.

Carol, that sounds just like me! How nice Well it's good to feel good about what we are doing yes?

The trouble with being an expert with all the answers is that you are way less likely to develop the expert-independant-thinking student. They have learnt that teacher always knows the answer and the student doesn't. I like to think of teaching like this: I point the student in the right direction and lay out the steeple chase course for them, they run the course while providing me with a commentary on their experiences and discoveries. I welcome their input and suggestions, e.g. if they make an "improvement" to a piece we write it in and that's the way they play it.

I don't think of myself as being an "expert" but I do have high standards for my teaching and my students have inherited (osmosis of teaching) strong motivation and discipline toward learning from me.

When I see and hear teachers talking about their students struggling with things I thank my lucky stars that somewhere at some point I got past struggling as a piano teacher about knowing how to teach and reach my students.

Once the teacher stops struggling, the piano student does too.

When it comes down to it, in reality, piano teaching produces a student who thinks like us, sounds like us and behaves like us.

We should "own" this as a thought before assigning "blame" to the students that it is their fault that they can't learn and that the "breakthrough" belongs to the student. It's highly relevant that when the student has a breakthrough it may be us who has also had a breakthrough in communication and teaching.

I'm not trying to start a "war" I am simply relating my personal experience and thoughts about what piano teaching is all about from my perspective.

Expert and experience are similarly rooted words.

Creating and giving good experiences should be the mainstay of our teaching.

Betty Patnude

I could not disagree more. I don't want students to think like me, sound like me or behave like me. I want them to be themselves in the very best ways possible. It's not my job to replicate myself. It's to create independent, thoughtful musicians. That's why we explore the ideas of many, not just mine.