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#1373986 - 02/14/10 08:05 PM Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why?
MM9 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3
Hi,

The manual of the Casio CTK-3000 states:

"Do not use rechargeable batteries."
...and...
"Do not use oxyride batteries or any other nickel based batteries."

I'm not sure why this is. Perhaps it is because six AA NiMH rechargeables rated at 1.2v (rather than the 1.5v for standard alkaline) do not meet the 9v requirements of the keyboard, is this correct? Would the keyboard still function as it should, or do I risk damage? Or will it simply not function at all?

Also, I looked up some information on these "oxyride" batteries, and they are rated .2v higher than standard alkaline, and may not be good for devices without a voltage regulator, so it makes sense why these are not recommended. But do NiMH fall into the same category of "Nickel-based batteries" as the forbidden oxyrides?

I just want to know if I can use rechargeable NiMH batteries in my CTK-3000 with no hiccups or risk of damage. Thanks.

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#1374071 - 02/14/10 10:12 PM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: MM9]
dspwhite Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 12
I always dislike it when a product tells you that you 'can't' use or do such and such without saying why you can't. Like you imply, one isn't to know whether it may damage the batteries (where testing would be okay), or the keyboard itself.

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#1374124 - 02/14/10 11:14 PM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: dspwhite]
LesCharles73 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 739
Loc: Denton Texas
I'd call Casio and ask them. I wouldn't install rechargeable batteries until you're absolutely sure you can though, because there is probably a good reason why Casio cautions against it, and installing them will probably void your warranty.
_________________________
Les C Deal





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#1374134 - 02/14/10 11:25 PM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries... [Re: MM9]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Quote:

I'm not sure why this is. Perhaps it is because six AA NiMH rechargeables rated at 1.2v (rather than the 1.5v for standard alkaline) do not meet the 9v requirements of the keyboard,


I'm sure that's the reason. To bad Casio was to cheap to include a voltage regulator circuit.

I have a little portable battery powered guitar amp that uses 6 AA cells and only worked on alkaline. I replaced the battery holder with a 8 cell holder and now it works well with rechargeable. I bet there is no easy way to replace the battery holder on the DP.

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#1374155 - 02/14/10 11:37 PM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: LesCharles73]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
I would guess the reason is that 6 1.2V AA will only deliver 7.2V and if the design requires a total of 9V, the keyboard will not function properly or reliably, like you suspect. Usually over voltage may cause damage, but I'm not sure how lower voltage can damage the circuitry, because if the regular AA alkaline batteries drain down, their voltage will start dropping down from 1.5V as well. So inevitably the alkaline batteries will drop their voltage to a point where the keyboard will stop function, but it should incur no damage.

I'm not telling you to disregard the manual here. Just offering my opinion of why like you ask, and whether damage may occur or not.

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#1374270 - 02/15/10 12:55 AM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: Volusiano]
Ludwig van Bilge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/13/09
Posts: 204
I've had other electronic gizmos in which rechargeables were not recommended because of the lower voltage. I wouldn't be afraid to try it and use them if they work. They won't last as long but I don't think low voltage can harm your keyboard because the voltage on regular batteries eventually gets low.

Sorry, I don't know what oxyride batteries are.

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#1374468 - 02/15/10 08:38 AM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: Ludwig van Bilge]
MM9 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3
Thanks for the responses. I came across a keyboard review on Amazon in which the author stated that the use of rechargeables were not recommended by the manual, but tried them anyway and worked fine. This was for a Yamaha, and I'm not sure the words "not recommended" are the words of the manual or the reviewer, as the CTK3K manual blunty says not to do it at all. But the review says the only "problem" was that the keyboard would die abrubtly on rechargeables (rather than gradually on alkalines.

Volusiano, that is what I was thinking, but I was worried I could 'stress out' the NiMHs too much and cause possible explosion (this is an unfounded guess, but i'm being over-precautious). But if the voltages of regular alkalines gradually decrease as well, then that shouldn't be a problem. So perhaps rechargeables with lower voltages will just cause the keyboard to be in that "gradually dying" state (at worst). Hopefully, it will still play nicely without glitches.

My keyboard arrives tomorrow. I'll let you know how it turns out.

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#1374633 - 02/15/10 12:36 PM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: Ludwig van Bilge]
LesCharles73 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 739
Loc: Denton Texas
Originally Posted By: Ludwig van Bilge
I've had other electronic gizmos in which rechargeables were not recommended because of the lower voltage. I wouldn't be afraid to try it and use them if they work. They won't last as long but I don't think low voltage can harm your keyboard because the voltage on regular batteries eventually gets low.

Sorry, I don't know what oxyride batteries are.


It *might* damage the memory in the unit or render it unstable. I'm really not sure though. Battery explosion is a definite possibility.
_________________________
Les C Deal





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#1374821 - 02/15/10 04:15 PM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: LesCharles73]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
I don't think under-voltage can really damage electronics that easily, especially digital electronics. If there's not enough voltage to bring it up to the working range, it just simply won't work, but it won't be damaged.

The only way you can stress out a rechargeable to a point of overheating is to short circuit it in some way. I think what's going to happen is when the voltage gets low enough after the battery is drained out is that the machine simply just shuts down, preventing any further drainage. So explosion is unlikely, and even stressing out the batteries is unlikely. The most likely thing is that your instrument will shut down sooner on the rechargeable than on alkaline, that's all. And if this happens, this means that your rechargeable still has a lot of juice left inside unused due to the premature shut down, so it's actually not exercised enough to anywhere near the stressed-out point in the first place.

The other thing manufactures don't like about rechargeables is their tendencies to self discharge over time even when unused. So this, combined with the fact that they're only 1.2V in the first place, may make the instrument stop working even sooner than when alkaline is used. But there are now NiMH batteries by Sanyo called Eneloop (and Panasonic also has a similar kind) that allows the NiMH to hold the charge much longer (up to a year). So if you find that rechargeables work fine on your Casio, but just not as long, you may want to try out the Eneloop to pro-long the "up" time.

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#1374850 - 02/15/10 04:48 PM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: LesCharles73]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3815
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: LesCharles73
It *might* damage the memory in the unit or render it unstable. I'm really not sure though. Battery explosion is a definite possibility.
smile smile

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#1375146 - 02/15/10 10:52 PM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: MacMacMac]
LesCharles73 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 739
Loc: Denton Texas
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Originally Posted By: LesCharles73
It *might* damage the memory in the unit or render it unstable. I'm really not sure though. Battery explosion is a definite possibility.
smile smile


what?

Here's an excerpt on undervoltage to computers: (keyboards and digital pianos are similar enough to computers to warrant me posting this).

"Most people don't realize that undervoltage can hurt electronic devices, but it can. Wattage is the product of amperage and voltage; and when voltage goes down at a given load, amperage increases, causing conductors to become hotter. If they become hot enough, they melt, doing irreparable harm to the components to which they belong."

Taken from this site: http://backupnut.com/power.html

I realize we're dealing with AC vs DC, but the amperage (yes a small amount, but it can still overheat/short circuit) is still existent. The potential problem is still the same, albeit on a smaller scale.

**Point: it says not to in the manual, and you would probably prematurely wear out the rechargeable batteries anyway, so I think it would be cheaper to just use regular batteries. Or use an adapter.


Edited by LesCharles73 (02/15/10 11:01 PM)
_________________________
Les C Deal





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#1375159 - 02/15/10 11:24 PM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: LesCharles73]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3815
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: LesCharles73
Here's an excerpt on undervoltage to computers: (keyboards and digital pianos are similar enough to computers to warrant me posting this).

"Most people don't realize that undervoltage can hurt electronic devices, but it can. Wattage is the product of amperage and voltage; and when voltage goes down at a given load, amperage increases, causing conductors to become hotter. If they become hot enough, they melt, doing irreparable harm to the components to which they belong."

Taken from this site: http://backupnut.com/power.html

I realize we're dealing with AC vs DC, but the amperage (yes a small amount, but it can still overheat/short circuit) is still existent. The potential problem is still the same, albeit on a smaller scale.
Your source doesn't make sense.

"When voltage goes down at a given load, amperage increases"
Incorrect. When voltage goes down, current decreases.

Please don't believe everything you read online.


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#1375254 - 02/16/10 02:19 AM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: LesCharles73]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
Originally Posted By: LesCharles73
Here's an excerpt on undervoltage to computers: (keyboards and digital pianos are similar enough to computers to warrant me posting this).

"Most people don't realize that undervoltage can hurt electronic devices, but it can. Wattage is the product of amperage and voltage; and when voltage goes down at a given load, amperage increases, causing conductors to become hotter. If they become hot enough, they melt, doing irreparable harm to the components to which they belong."

Taken from this site: http://backupnut.com/power.html


The context of the quote above is specific to UPS (uninterrupted power supply) and pertains to household high voltage 120V AC application, not DC level operation as it pertains to battery operation. The undervoltage condition as discussed in this quote is the high ac voltage on the power line that may come in lower than 120 or 115V (should be a pretty rare occasion in my opinion). It's a totally different animal we're talking about here. Even if this happens, it would only affect the AC power supply portion of the Casio, which has nothing to do with the battery operation.

Originally Posted By: LesCharles73
I realize we're dealing with AC vs DC, but the amperage (yes a small amount, but it can still overheat/short circuit) is still existent. The potential problem is still the same, albeit on a smaller scale.


The potential problem is really not the same because in the case battery operation, the power supplied by the batteries is not unlimited like in the case of the power line supply.

Even if there's a DC voltage regulator used in the Casio, and it's designed to compensate a 20% voltage difference between 9V and 7.2V, then it should have been designed to draw only a maximum amount of current that's within the safe operating limit of this regulator in the first place. OK, so a little more current is drawn from the rechargeables to compensate for the lower voltage. No big deal. It just means the rechargeables may drain a little faster and drop further in voltage sooner, until the Casio stops working. Will this stress the rechargeables out more? I doubt it. NiMH is suitable to handle high drain applications just fine.

If no DC voltage regulator is used, then depending on the tolerance of the digital circuits designed in the Casio, the circuit either works or doesn't. If it works at the lower voltage, it wouldn't draw more current due to the lower voltage because the on/off switchings of the transistors operate the same with either voltage.

Now, let's say the voltage tolerance is plus and minus 30% of the ideal voltage. So with alkalines, the voltage can drop to 30% before the product quits. But with the NiMH, there's already a 20% voltage drop right off the bat, so it doesn't take much longer for the NiMH to drop another 10% to get to the 30% tolerance level to stop the product from working. If the voltage tolerance is less than 20%, the product won't work at all to begin with.

So usually when manufacturers don't have voltage regulators for their battery operation, they don't want consumers to use rechargeables. The alkalines may let the product work for the optimal amount of time, until the juice is all drained out. But with the NiMH, the product may work if the tolerance margin is high enough, but probably for a much shorter and unpredictable amount of time, even if it hasn't depleted all the juice out of the NiMH yet. So manufacturers know this and don't want customers to complain why the product can't handle rechargeables by telling them not to use it in the first place.

Originally Posted By: LesCharles73
**Point: it says not to in the manual, and you would probably prematurely wear out the rechargeable batteries anyway, so I think it would be cheaper to just use regular batteries. Or use an adapter.


If you want to use quote, this link here is a quote that provides a more sensible answer in my opinion. I'll paste the answer below so you don't have to go to the link if you don't want to:

"Why can’t I use rechargeable batteries? Is it just a matter that they don't last as long or will they actually ruin the device?

Rechargeable batteries should not be used in our devices (except for a few simple plush toys) because they do not supply the proper voltage needed to run our products. They will not ruin the devices, but most will not work properly.

Most of our products run on AA, C or D size batteries. These batteries have an output of 1.5 Volts each (when new out of the package, the output will be closer to 1.6 Volts if they are a good name-brand battery). New and fully charged Rechargeable batteries of the same size only put out 1.2 Volts. For most products this is not enough voltage for the device to work. In addition, the rechargeable battery’s voltage drops very quickly during use compared to a non-rechargeable battery of the same size. Also if a device with rechargeable batteries is stored for a length of time, you will have to recharge the batteries again before use because rechargeable batteries have a much higher rate of self-discharge (about 20-30% per month) than alkalines."

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#1375335 - 02/16/10 07:56 AM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: Volusiano]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3815
Loc: North Carolina
Vol, I mostly agree with what you said, except:
OK, so a little more current is drawn from the rechargeables to compensate for the lower voltage.There is no "compensation". As a battery drains, it equivalent resistance rises, its supplied voltage drops ... and so the supplied current drops. The current does not rise to "compensate" for the reduced voltage.

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#1375394 - 02/16/10 09:55 AM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: MacMacMac]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Vol, I mostly agree with what you said, except:
OK, so a little more current is drawn from the rechargeables to compensate for the lower voltage.There is no "compensation". As a battery drains, it equivalent resistance rises, its supplied voltage drops ... and so the supplied current drops. The current does not rise to "compensate" for the reduced voltage.


Hi MacMac, what I said above is with respect to the DC voltage regulator (if one was used). The input of the regulator is the 7.2V from the NiMH, and the output of it is the 9V needed to drive the digital circuit of the product. The way the regulator does this voltage step up to boost 7.2 to 9V is to draw extra current from the input source to generate the voltage boost.

Initially, the NiMH will have enough energy/juice to give the extra current required by the regulator to do the voltage boost. Then at some point, the NiMH drains enough juice such that its internal resistance starts rising, causing its supplied voltage to the regulator to drop below 1.2V (or 7.2V for the 6 in series), and its supplied current to drop accordingly. At this point, the regulator will fail to produce the necessary 9V to the product, so the output of the regulator will drop below 9V, and eventually past the tolerance point where the product will stop working and shut down.

So what I said will happen initially, then what you said will happen next, after the NiMH is sufficiently drained of its stored energy.

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#1375719 - 02/16/10 04:14 PM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: Volusiano]
MM9 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3
So the keyboard arrived and I tried the NiMHs. It powers on and plays fine. The digits in the LCD seems to be a bit faded (still easily readable, just not bold-black), but the that's the only symptom I've encountered thus far. I've played it for about about an hour before I shut it off.

Based on the previous comments, I'm doubtful that this will harm anything. Even still, this is only temporary until I get an AC adapter.

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#1375746 - 02/16/10 04:43 PM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: MacMacMac]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Quote:

"When voltage goes down at a given load, amperage increases"
Incorrect. When voltage goes down, current decreases.

Please don't believe everything you read online.


It really is true, within the context in which it was written. A computer power supply is designed to produce a given number of watts of DC power and will use what ever input voltage is present on the AC mains line (within a 100 to 240 volt limit) The current drawn is inversely proportional to the AC mains voltage. The computer power supply uses feedback to control the current draw so as to be able to supply a specified number of watts from any input voltage.

Some battery powered devices are also this sophisticated. One example is a light I used for scuba diving at night. It is powered by 8 "D" cells or a Nicad. The electronics in the light will match whatever voltage the battery supplies to the voltage required by the large LED lamp. So as the battery ages and the voltage drops over time more current is drawn so as to provide and even voltage to the lamp. This has the effect of sucking every last bit of power from the battery. This works great, as the battery falls even below 1V the light s still bright.

Your statement about the current falling as the voltage drops applies only to a simple passive load.

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#1375769 - 02/16/10 05:04 PM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: ChrisA]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3815
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: ChrisA
Your statement about the current falling as the voltage drops applies only to a simple passive load.
Quite so. And it applies here. Drooping battery voltage to a porta-piano (or radio or ipod or remote control or cd player) will cause the battery current drain to drop. Lamps will go dimmer. Unregulated motors will slow down. Go low enough, and they just won't work. These devices have no way to boost the drooping voltage back up to the nominally correct level. As the voltage drops, the current drain drops with it.

Originally Posted By: ChrisA
A computer power supply is designed to produce a given number of watts of DC power ...
Not so. Nearly all devices depend on constant-voltage sources. The supply is designed to produce a constant number of volts of output, not constant watts. The current (and the power/watts) produced on the output can be as low as zero, or as high as the design will allow ... depending on the load. But, within its design limits, it will maintain constant voltage (not constant power).

Originally Posted By: ChrisA
The computer power supply uses feedback to control the current draw so as to be able to supply a specified number of watts from any input voltage.
The power supply controls the voltage drop from the higher input voltage to the lower output voltage. If the load (the computer) draws a constant current, but the mains/supply voltage drops, the mains/supply current will drop.

Anyway ... to the OP's question ...
It's good to know that all worked well for him with the "unapproved" batteries. Not surprising. Battery droop (or battery types that run at lower voltages) won't make your piano (or any other device) blow up or catch fire. smile

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#1376011 - 02/16/10 09:57 PM Re: Casio manual states not to use rechargeable batteries...Why? [Re: MM9]
edt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 210
Originally Posted By: MM9
Hi,

The manual of the Casio CTK-3000 states:

"Do not use rechargeable batteries."


I'm not sure why this is.


a company like casio will do anything it can to save a few bucks, you add wording like this, it can save your company maybe 10 or 20 thousand dollars a year.

How it works is like this, your device is under warranty, it shorts out, you call them up and the first thing they ask is "Did you use rechargeable batteries in your device."

Now if you are like I am, the last thing I do is spend time reading the owner's manual, so I'll respond, "Why of course I did, I'm not made of money."

And then they'll say, "I'm sorry your warranty is void." This trick doesn't have to work very often maybe 1% or 2% of their warranties, but in a high volume company like Casio, it adds up.

You never see this sort of warning about rechargeables on boutique brands not because they are magically better able to handle rechargeable batteries better, but that for a smaller company it's not worth going after pocket change.

If you have used some of the audio and signal processing ICs used on a casio, you should already know that ICs on these boards can tolerate some variation of the voltage supply.


"Do not use oxyride batteries"


Oxyride batteries are too powerful, and meant for cameras, they could burn up your casio. This warning is legit.


Edited by edt (02/16/10 10:10 PM)

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