Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Does Shigeru Kawai compare with the top German pianos?

I tried a wide selections of the very best European (mostly German) pianos today and I must say it was a fantastic experience. It certainly convinced me that these are spectacular instruments and I understand why Steinway is rapidly losing its iron grip on the high end piano market in the United States--it seem to me that this can't happen fast enough.

Does anyone have experience with Shigeru Kawai? Are they at all comparable to pianos like Steingraeber and Bosendorfer?

Well, though I share your sentiments regarding Steinway, their "iron grip" is still very, very formidable. It is the only company right now that can produce concert quality instruments in large quantities. And, we won't be seeing a huge influx of European instruments until the dollar gains against the Euro.

Shigeru Kawai is a very different sounding piano than Steingraeber or Boesendorfer. I have yet to play any piano from these three companies that I didn't like, though I do have a strong preference for Steingraeber.

Steinway will, retain the iron grip on the concert stage because they have the infrastructure in place to maintain it. It's too expensive to build that from scratch and so none of the other high end piano companies can afford to with the exception of Yamaha/Bosendorfer. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few years if Steinway's business performance continues to decline and doesn't provide the funds to maintain their C&A stable of instruments.

Perhaps I wasn't clear: the 'iron grip' to which I referred was not the grip on concert stages, but on the high end market. Certainly Steinway has a formidable marketing operation and aggressively maintains its virtual monopoly on concert halls. But this is an expensive monopoly to maintain.

I was referring, rather, to Steinway's declining share of the market for high end pianos. There is just no question that New York Steinway produces a product significantly inferior to the premier European brands. After playing many of those pianos yesterday I must say I was just shocked at the difference. They are chipping away at Steinway's dominance of the US market--and Steinway, which has been focused on expanding its share of the middle market with its two other brands--seems to lack a clear strategy to combat them.

Perhaps Steinway could redirect some of their marketing budget toward improving their product.

I think the Shigerus don't necessarily have to compete with the top echelon of European pianos, because they are not priced anywhere near them. Having said that, my couple of experiences with them were memorable in a very good way; I "connected" with an SK3 in a way very few other 6' pianos have.

Although I have taken a fair number of shots at Steinway here, I must disagree with your second post. A NY Steinway in a top state of prep is tough to beat, particularly when it comes to breadth of tone color. There are certainly better values out there (caveat: I think the model D is a decent value compared to other concert grands...the other models, not so much).

Yes. Shigeru Kawai is easily comparable to pianos like Steingraeber and Bosendorfer. Many of the processes that are stressed by the top German makers as giving their pianos distinction are also fully implemented by Shigeru Kawai in their production process. Kawai however is able to bring these top of the line Shigerus to the end user at a much lower price than Steingraeber and Bosendorfer because Kawai has the benefit of being able to share costs with it's mass produced consumer line of pianos.
Shigerus are undeniably top notch world class instruments. The fact that they can be had for thousands of dollars less than comparable models from other companies is, for some, a tough pill to swallow. In the case of high end pianos like Shigeru you get more than you pay for. My somewhat biased opinion.

I love Shigeru pianos. I don't know if they are as "good" as the tier one German pianos, but then why wouldn't they? They have a unique voice which is always a sign of originality in piano design.

To me the musical comparison is not really valid - we prefer whatever we prefer.

I don't think a Shigeru Kawai comes close to the equivalent Steingraber in the 7ft range, when it comes to power and tonal range available. Touch on both is excellent in my view. I couldn't say when it comes to concert grand size as I have only played one Shigeru concert grand and I can;t remember a thing about it.

Shigeru sounds so completely different to Boesendorfers that they are like chalk and cheese to me. The feel is also very different. To me the Bosie is much darker and with more complex tone, especially in the larger sizes. Shigeru is purer and cleaner. Very, very different.

Wouldn't it be nice to play a Shigeru next or near to a Schimmel, next to a Bosie, next to a Steingraeber, next to a Steinway and next to a C7?! All of the same size, of course, and immediately after each other - and time and time again for about four hours!

I don't think there's an opportunity for that immediate comparison anywhere in the UK but I may be wrong!

There is a Shigeru and a Steinway in one of the London studios. Both B size.

I have played Shigeru next to new Fazioli and used but not old Bechstein and Bluthner (among other things) in a London showroom. No idea of current stock though. I have not seen Shigeru side by side with Steingreaber. I have seen them side by side with Boesendorfer in Switzerland but not the UK.

I agree that it is much harder to compare meaningfully when you have to take a taxi or tube ride in-between.

I've played a few of the true high end pianos, but not enough to feel confident of my opinions. One observation I do feel confident to make is that dealer prep is crucial. I don't believe the Bosie 225 I played had been sufficiently prepped, the action was sloppy and the sound was very mellow. the Bechsteins I played on piano row were quite a wonderful experience, but they sounded very incisive.

By contrast the Shigeru SK7 I've mentioned on a few occasions had a very refined sound, what might best be described as the ultimate Mozart/Haydn instrument. It had been prepped by a Kawai MPA. Apparently when an MPA makes a home visit, they sometimes also drop by the dealer that sold it. I mention this as a Mozart/Haydn instrument, but must qualify that as the piano was in the middle of the room. I was told it was too powerful when placed against a wall. In general I prefer a more exuberant sound, but when playing this SK7 for a long time found that I had more control than I was used to and was able to achieve finer nuances (as well as greater speed and accuracy) than I was used to.

When Larry Fine first put Shigeru Kawai is Tier 1C I believe he said that it may deserve even higher ranking, but that the market was resistant to such a high ranking for a "Japanese" instrument. I don't know whether their rankings have improved in the intervening year or two, but my limited sample of this one instrument was that it was one of the most responsive pianos I've ever played. The dealer had other smaller SKs, but they weren't in the same league as the SK7 (and hadn't been visited by an MPA). Which brings me full circle, even in the top tier, dealer prep is everything.

Absolutely,

My order of preference:
1. Steingraeber
2. Shigeru Kawai
3. Bösendorfer

Thank You for posting this. If I had it would have been the end of the world. This is a very finicky subject. As AJF said cost is lower because they can share costs. It depends on your tonal preferences too. Its like comparing Japanese and European made cars. Its like comparing apples to Oranges. From a strictly technical and material point of view I definitely think it rivals, if not trumps some Tier 1 European brands, but its all opinion. SK's are a great option though for someone that wants a world class instrument without taking out the second mortgage against the house.

Could you elaborate? Where from a technical and material point does a Shigeru trump a tier one instrument?

To compare a Shigeru Kawai to a European piano is like comparing a Lexus to a BMW. They are both great and valid choices with the Lexus being a bit more sterile and the BMW a bit more inspiring. Same could be said for the Shigeru Kawai VS. the top European built pianos but ultimately it comes down to personal preference.

This made me smile Glenn.

I have never owned a Lexus, but I have had about a dozen BMW's over the years (starting with company cars). Whether bottom of the range or top of the range they all feel the same and drive the same and I would describe them as "sterile", especially compared with more exotic kit. Just goes to show that one man's showgirl is another man's ....well you get my drift. But I get your piano analogy point ;-) and agree.

Louis, as I recall you are about 14, right? Which European tier 1 pianos do you have extensive hours on?

I never claimed to have extensive hours, although I have tried an extensive range of Tier 1 pianos. Materials wise, they use some of the rarest wood for sound boards in the world, and depending on the model age for longer than any other piano manufacturer. They also have their Millennium 3 SK action, and although quality of composite materials isn't necessarily "luxurious", its the most innovative, fast, and offers the most control than any other. Not saying it has the nicest feel, just the best "mechanics". I am also not saying it trumps all of them and I'm not necessarily just having Bosendorfer and Fazioli in mind. European pianos I think kind of have a psychological market strategy. People think European in cars and think luxurious and Japanese as efficient. Some people would say a Lexus rivals Mercedes, Jaguar, BMW, and those people might also think a Lexus is better than some of those brands.

Here: Audi Salesman Lexus Owner

Hello David,
You might be interested in a sound comparison (not ideal on you tube but)
Bösendorfer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaX1j4elJRU
Shigeru Kawai: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRdYnsJ8wkw

I considered both in a recent purchase and opted for a Bösendorfer (not a new one thou). In the Swiss market the Shigeru Kawai is tough to sell as in general German, Austrian and European pianos are more popular to these with an appropriate budget. On the other side there are not many Shigeru dealers - with more dealers it might have been different.

In terms of the design and manufacture I found the Shigeru price/value equation very high. Given the impossible price of new Bösendorfer and Steingraber I could see the Shiregu as a very good option.

This said it much depends on your personal taste. In terms of market acceptability (e.g. second hand market) it is certainly not at the same level of Bösendorfer and others.

Steingraber has a very different sound and less availability here in Switzerland. Used and new are fairly expensive.

I found the Shigeru very special and, provided that the buyer likes the sound, it should certainly be a good alternative over more "aristocratic" brands
Cheers from Zürich
David

Thank you, Gurugeek, for reminding us all that Bosendorfers are NOT German pianos. They were only German pianos for a brief period in the 1930's and 40's. . . .This is an important distinction, especially if one is Austrian.

GuruGeek, I don't think its fair to say that Shigeru is certnainly not at the same level as Bosendorfer and others unless you are implying SK is better. LOL

He said as far as market acceptability, and I'd agree. Japanese pianos don't have the same cache as Western European pianos, even though they may outperform some or many of them.

The distinguished piano technician George Kolasis has very impressive credentials and extensive European experience. He has worked closely with Oscar Peterson as well as other famous pianists. He places Shigeru Kawai among the four best piano makes in the world along with Bosendorfer, Fazioli and Steinway and Sons.

Regards,

Robert.

George just tuned my piano yesterday. He also said of the Shigeru that it is the least tempermental of his four favourites. He's also got a great sense of humour to boot:)

I agree with Glen's assesment.

They are both beautiful pianos but do have a somewhat different 'feel'

Norbert

Short answer: No.
Long answer: No.

Ucluelet huh? How's the piano selection up there? Nice selection of German pianos to compare to the Americans to the Japanese? I heard there's a pretty nice Southern European piano that some people says is purdy gud too...

Come out of the wilderness, play the pianos in some major centres then base your opinion on some real time with those pianos, then get back to us.

Yes,the Shigeru Kawai does compare well with the top German pianos. I tried a 7-footer yesterday. It is 100 times better than any Japanese piano I have ever played, and it wasn't even regulated and voiced especially well. Would not have guessed it was Japanese if blindfolded. Very sophisticated tone, touch and balance. A serious solemnity about it. Compared well with some Boseys I played during the same session. Eye-bleedingly expensive, but discounts can be steep. These are tough times.
Gerry

Slightly off topic, but does the "cache" discussed above add "value" to an instrument in the marketplace?

I never quite understand this comparing and rating business
All pianos have their own beauty and appeal, the top cats no exception.

A question of greater interest would be if a 100% 'pure' German piano still has the edge over one that's either being built in other parts of Europe or uses parts and components from elsewhere.

Once this question can be answered with 'yes' it openes all kinds of other possibilities.

Norbert

No offense, Steve, but is that a serious question? I'm sure we'll have a much easier time selling Knabe, Pramberger and Ritmuller once we call them Samick, Young Chang, and Pearl River again. Even in the short term, consumers have been more favorable to used Knabe & Pramberger than used Samick World Grands & Young Chang's PG models. I'd say that adds value.

This post is not directed to Steve, but is instead my own thoughts. Having spent a lot of time establishing brands locally, I enjoy this debate. I also know what longtime Kawai dealers were telling me about the first Shigerus as well as each local dealer's responsibility in marketing. Some Kawai dealers make it exceptional and some aren't sure what to do with it.

Toyota can produce Lexus to start competing with BMW however Lexus will never affect the buying practices of those shopping for Ferrari, Bentley or Rolls. I remember their briefly being a $90k VW. Like it our not, cachet has always mattered at all levels of consumerism.

If you want to tell time, you can buy a Rolex, a Seiko, a Casio, or a Rolex knockoff. There are customers for all four, but cachet affects the business practices of 3 of them. (Seiko makes styles similar to Rolex).

When it comes to precision time keeping, I'm willing to wager that Seiko is very capable.

Let's say Seiko decides to build a watch by hand and it is fabulous, gold & platinum, produces studies that prove their precision is every bit as good or better than the Swiss and the slap $5K price tag on it. Which is their message? "We're as good as (or better than) Rolex?" Or is it, "At least we're not $10k?"

I know from playing them, that Shigeru Kawai pianos are exceptional. I believe they will be better than many pianos including some who have the cachet. However if they want to compete with the majority of buyers who are considering among brands that have established cachet, they will have to wade around until they get it. The difference between Yamaha's experiment with the S series in North America versus Kawai's Shigeru models may simply come down to the dealer network.

Awards and kudos can be bestowed by those with credentials, but cachet can only be bestowed by those with cachet. It used to be royalty and now it is too often celebrity.

Julliard has cachet (they have credentials, reputation & exclusivity). Julliard gives Steinway cachet as an "All Steinway School" but they get snippy when other institutions talk about being "All Steinway" with a mix of Steinway, Boston & Essex. I guess they are protective of who they lend their cachet to. Other schools don't think "All Steinway" is even a good idea. (This is bait for another post, anyone? )

It is frustrating but fun making comparisons. Let's wait 5 years to see how the high end market landscape looks. Look how much it has changed in the last 5.

Very insightful. I like it. Also don't forget that part of Larry Fine's rating system is brand recognition and how long they have been in the market. If a Fazioli had only been around since 2009 I doubt it would have made it into tier 1. Just sayin.

There is an ongoing confusion here between comparing pianos as musical instruments and their "market acceptability" or "market success" as a commercial product.

Saab was VERY comparable to Volvo - I owned both - but the market spoke clearly in favour of Volvo.

Kawai Shigerus are wonderful pianos but in buying one of them I would hardly base my decision on its real or perceived proximity to another maker.

In fact, I would buy my piano based on the beauty and uniqueness as an instrument to me - the player.

I know people who marry because their partners 'remind' them on somebody before.

I couldn't think of a worse reason to do so.....

Norbert

Before Larry Fine promoted SK I played one alongside some hamburg Steinways. I prefered the SK! I said to myself, SK should belong to tier 1. Just wait and see.

Hello Norbert,

I don't know think it is confusion but rather the meandering of this thread. Steve Cohen asked the question as "Slightly off topic...."



I think this is great, but as you know piano buying is often a family decision or committee decision including people who do not play.

This is much easier to do after spending a lifetime with pianos, but we work at creating an environment where this will happen.

On an interesting side note....after the Gibson Co. bought the bankrupt Baldwin Co. and dismantled their Concert Division, Earl Wild endorsed Shigeru Kawai pianos. Is anyone here familiar with the recordings that he made playing that particular make of instrument? It might make for some interesting blindfold listening tests.

His site is pretty up front about instruments used:

http://www.ivoryclassics.com/releases/73005/

So....that's nice. But what does that have to do with comparing the Shigeru Kawai to other pianos?

I thought that was a great link. If you check it out, you will find that there are samples of the Shigeru EX recordings.

Okay.....So how does the Shigeru Kawai compare to those other pianos? This is like getting a tooth pulled.

As a technician I can get a good idea of what the piano is like from the recordings - especially when I listen for certain things in certain registers of the piano. But I don't want to debate the subject of how the Shigeru compares in case you were asking me. Everyone should form their own opinions, and I think the recordings are somewhat useful for this purpose. It's obviously a world class piano.

Very true.

As pointed out the *success of a line* as a commerical product is supposed to be the measuring stick for 'rating pianos', but I am not so sure of this myself.

During my travels I have seen some pretty incredible pianos such as Pfeiffers,Feurichs and Thuermers [Bochum], none of them were widely known manufacturers.

Yet these companies were hugely successful in that they were building first rate quality selling all they are/were making.

Norbert

[quote=gurugeek]Hello David,
You might be interested in a sound comparison (not ideal on you tube but)
Bösendorfer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaX1j4elJRU
Shigeru Kawai: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRdYnsJ8wkw

It really intrigues me, Here are two vastly different tone qualities...I wonder which of these two clips is the favourite among pianoworld posters.

Can we vote on it?

rxd,

Apart from the fact that these are YouTube video recordings, I think the question cannot be answered as the pianists are not the same.

schwammerl.

Schwamerl, Thank you for helping me clarify my question. I am aware of the differences you point out , that's why I kept my question simple, They are vastly different tone qualities. I am not interested in manufacturer, age of piano, (the Bosendorfer looksand sounds to be quite old) although I am aware that there will be a lot read into any results.... come to think of it, Any results can and will be used as ammunition by those with an axe to grind. That possibility was farthest from my mind. Perhaps two different anonymous recordings might be better.

I heard Valentina play many times over the week of a competition some years ago when I was working on an international piano competition and she impressed me as having a most varied tonal pallette. This recording does not do her, nor Bosendorfer pianos in general, justice and the Kawai seems too closely miked
The recording techniques, if any technique was used, on both recordings are also vastly different.

Nevertheless, It still intrigues me what kind of tone quality is currently preferred here. I am aware intimately with the tastes of concert audiences and players, What are piano buyers prefering?

It seems we still have the basic difference that we had over a hundred years go, the lite 'n' brite Viennese based sound versus the heavier sound.

This thread is from 5 years ago.
So how about now?

How Shigeru Kawai compare with the top german pianos today?

I think that Shigeru today is among the best (technically speaking), differences from german pianos comes to personal preferences about touch and tone. For me, Shigeru sings from low end to half middle, but I dont like the sound from middle to top end. It is too sterile. I still prefer the sound of Steinway D in concert grands, but not in the smaller size grands. There is something in Grotrian 192 cabinet that put a smile on my face every time I hear it.

Well, compared to five years ago, unfortunately, some of the top German piano vendors are no longer (fully) German. They have tried to lower cost/prices while maintaining quality. Or introduced middle tier versions of their instruments. Do you realte to any of that?

Or is the question if Shigeru Kawai have improved in the last 5 years?

I was at the local Kawai dealer recently, he had a new non-Shigeru Kawai baby grand with ABS Carbon action, the latest tech in the smallest grand (with the smallest price). Very nice instrument. The Shigeru are still a league above, though, I think.

Unfortunately this is true for about 70% of the makers.

In our own experience it was mostly Estonia that got compared to Shigeru.

If and when Estonia won out it was mostly for its romantic and highly resonant tone. The appeal of a European, handmade piano was another.
On the other hand, Shigeru has other qualities some people may prefer. Very nice piano, like it myself!
We always respected Shigeru and told our customers this.

Recently we sold a new Estonia to an Edmonton customer who had extensively shopped in all the city's stores. And of course one always hears back. Unfortunately some of them see fit to denigrate other dealers and their makes. One particular dealer of prominent make chose to do so as has done several times before..

This was not true for the city's largest, the Yamaha dealer.
Mutual respect is still best way to go: vive le choice!

"Thanks John"

Norbert

I have played about a dozen Shigeru Kawais in piano showrooms over the last four years. I really liked them all. The Steinways I played were much more variable. I can only evaluate them as I found them on the dealer floors, and under those conditions, I preferred the Shigerus. I've played them side by side with Faziolis. They are certainly different than Faziolis, but I did not feel like one was clearly superior to the other.

Louis, Youtube has a lot of piano factory tours that show how each house approaches tone, construction and general design sensibilities. Kawai, Bechstein, Grotian, Fazioli and many others are represented. The most interesting difference is how much technology each company incorporates into their top end instruments. The German firms are incredibly organized, Fazioli is probably the most traditional, and listening to Kawai is an education in Japanese aesthetics.