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#1374621 - 02/15/10 12:24 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: snazzyplayer]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2396
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Ha!

Snazzy's had more comebacks than Frank Sinatra.

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1374631 - 02/15/10 12:36 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
Colleen_500 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/10
Posts: 34
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James

However, regardless of the type of memory used, I agree that increasing the amount of memory capacity is a rather more sensible use of resources than a sexy light-up logo.

Cheers,
James
x


You guys are missing the point. Style is equally as important for stage image as having a great sound.

I doubt if the home pianos will carry the cool logo, but you can bet they will have the same internal workings(with the exception of the un-graded keyboard).

In another thread there was a discussion on the look (or lack of look) of the CP-300.

Companies who realize their pianos will be played in front of an audience that may contain budding keyboardists, realize the "look of cool" is important, and an integral part of promotion and ultimately, more sales.

You should be very much aware of that, James, considering your position with Kawai.

Perhaps the very conservative company prefers the Kawai-it look. Ha Ha.

Regardless of the company, the main focus is sales and profit; if they can get away with making something that sounds better than the competition with the least amount investment in R&D and completely new (and expensive) technology, they will make every effort to do so, and thus please the shareholders and remain in business.

Regards,

Colleen

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#1374707 - 02/15/10 01:44 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
At the risk of stepping on another landmine, I would like to say that I was actually pulling my punches somewhat in the CP1 review, and for the following reasons:

1. Believe it or not, I don't generally like being the bearer of bad news. Lawrence was kind enough to provide the sample, and I didn't want him to think for one second that I was ripping his new DP to shreds just for fun.

2. I have a history of disliking the flurry of hype and fog of confusing technical terms surrounding the CP1 launch, and I didn't want my review to appear as something of a revenge tactic or sour grapes.

3. While the looping is probably the best I've heard, I was quite shocked at the short sample lengths, the stretching of the lower octaves, the relative shortness of the note decays, and the typically poor sympathetic resonance. So I erred on the side of caution in an attempt to offset any bias introduced by my shock.


Would I buy one of the newest CPs? Probably not for our home studio. Everyone here knows I'm rather picky when it comes to sound, and the CFIII sample doesn't meet my minimal requirements. IMHO, YMMV, the opinions of this poster may not reflect the general consensus view, etc. <insert beating a dead horse icon here>

Would I recommend others buy them? Preliminary indications suggest the CP50 will be sufficiently better than the P-155 to warrant steering people who are in the market for a ~$1500 USD DP in that direction. But I guess we'll see, and I look forward to trying them out when they hit the local stores.
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The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1374737 - 02/15/10 02:06 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: snazzyplayer]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
It's one thing to say we may or may not like a particular sound or piano based on our own criteria, but to post a test who's raw material may or may not even be from the instrument in question, on a public forum, is, in my opinion, more than a tad risky.

Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
But, as I said in my post's opening paragraph, there may be some who take these tests quite seriously, and if for some reason, this alleged "benchmark" test is found to have serious mistakes, the integrity of this forum may suffer.

This is why we can't have nice things.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1374748 - 02/15/10 02:21 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Colleen_500 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/10
Posts: 34
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: dewster


Would I buy one of the newest CPs? Probably not for our home studio. Everyone here knows I'm rather picky when it comes to sound, and the CFIII sample doesn't meet my minimal requirements. IMHO, YMMV, the opinions of this poster may not reflect the general consensus view, etc. <insert beating a dead horse icon here>



Dewster, dear, you poor man; you are so picky you quite probably won't buy a new piano until Snazzy's best friend Nyiregynazi puts his Blather up for sale, and buys himself an Avant Grand.

Having said that, I'm aware that Lawrence is happily enjoying his new CP-1, unlike many of us who only wish we could afford one.

Personally, I have to say I base my purchase on the actual playing experience, with some knowledge of specs, but not so much that it influences me to distraction.

I really can't imagine you being satisfied with anything being made today, and I am really glad I don't have that problem; no, my final choice may not have mind-blowing specifications and totally perfect replication, but at least I will totally enjoy the digital piano for what it is; a genuinely versatile musical instrument in it's own right.

Perfect? No. Perfect for Colleen? You bet.

By the way, you have my thanks for doing such a bang up job on the testing, even with all it's potential flaws, it is the best we've had here so far.

Best regards,

Colleen

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#1374780 - 02/15/10 03:13 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
dewster, wasn't there some discussion in a previous thread regarding the suitability for standard 'flash' memory to store samples? I forget the exact argument - perhaps something along the lines of latency or access time/transfer speed required for real time playback.

Indeed.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1374805 - 02/15/10 03:44 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
kiedysktos. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 425
Loc: Europe, Poland
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
However, regardless of the type of memory used, I agree that increasing the amount of memory capacity is a rather more sensible use of resources than a sexy light-up logo.

Hahah! Exactly.

I don't know modern Rolands, but older ones had problems with short sample length (and fast decay), so 88 key sampling doesn't help that much.
In fact, my big question is: are "they" try to make us all fools and purposely make the technical development slower that it can be? I think, that in some aspects, yes. It's easier to make great sounding 50 sample piano than 88; many don't hear difference, so producers save their money.

But anyway, recordings of CP-1 sound great smile maybe worth about half it's price, but still impressing.


Edited by kiedysktos. (02/15/10 03:45 PM)
_________________________
Roland FP-4

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#1374822 - 02/15/10 04:16 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Ha!

Snazzy's had more comebacks than Frank Sinatra.

Steve


I.......[sings in his best Sinatra impersonation] did it myyyyy waaaaaay. cool

Scoo-be-doo-bee-doo!
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1374832 - 02/15/10 04:27 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: snazzyplayer]
sdw91 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/02/09
Posts: 8
I just uploaded a recording of my trusty old P-80:

http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0BwW0oJqG...M3&hl=en_GB

Hope I did it right!

I've been thinking about replacing it for a while, but not found anything I like much better yet, which probably says more about my hearing than anything.

Cheers, Steve

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#1374837 - 02/15/10 04:35 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: kiedysktos.]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Yamaha CP1 CFIII Analysis Pix

Just thought people might like to see this, so we can all hallucinate together.

Open them in a new window to see them full size, or check them out at MediaFire.


The above is a spectral phase view of the note C4. Actual sample ~2 seconds, obvious visual looping after that.


The above is a spectral pan view of the note C5. Actual sample ~1.8 seconds, obvious visual looping after that.


The above is a spectral pan view of the lowest notes. Obvious note stretching, both visually and audibly.


The above is a spectral phase view of the highest notes. Obvious visual note stretching.


The above is a spectral phase view of the layer test. There appears to be a layer switch at the cursor, and another 4 steps in from the right side of the screen (I believe I can hear the highest one).


The above is a spectral pan view of the layer test. There appears to be a layer switch at the cursor.

So three layer switches implies a 4 layer sample. The layer blend is very smooth so the layer count is a bit of an educated guess.


Edited by dewster (02/15/10 06:38 PM)
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1374841 - 02/15/10 04:41 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: sdw91]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: sdw91
I just uploaded a recording of my trusty old P-80

Steve, the noise floor is really high (-45dB) so it isn't the best in terms of listening, but I can see things like looping and stretching. Should I proceed, or do you want to give it another go?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1374885 - 02/15/10 05:33 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
sdw91 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/02/09
Posts: 8
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: sdw91
I just uploaded a recording of my trusty old P-80

Steve, the noise floor is really high (-45dB) so it isn't the best in terms of listening, but I can see things like looping and stretching. Should I proceed, or do you want to give it another go?


Ah, I think I've got the line in volume too high on the Mac, as I had to turn the volume on the P-80 quite low to stop any clipping. I'll swap them round, and try again!

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#1374887 - 02/15/10 05:36 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Dr Popper]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
The only place you will hear any note stretching or looping when playing a CP1 is in your imagination.

I think I need to officially label the DPBSD test a "song" so people will stop saying this.

In the DPBSD "song" played on the CP1, I can clearly hear looping, stretching, and perhaps a velocity layer switch. With poor sympathetic resonance on top. If it can happen in my "song" it can possibly happen in other, real songs.

1990 called. They want their lame sample compression techniques back.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1374922 - 02/15/10 06:15 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
sdw91 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/02/09
Posts: 8
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: sdw91
I just uploaded a recording of my trusty old P-80

Steve, the noise floor is really high (-45dB) so it isn't the best in terms of listening, but I can see things like looping and stretching. Should I proceed, or do you want to give it another go?


Ok hopefully this is a bit better:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0BwW0oJq...Ez&hl=en_GB

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#1374947 - 02/15/10 06:33 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: sdw91]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: sdw91
Ok hopefully this is a bit better

Much better! Noise floor @ -57dB (lowest theoretical is approx. 16 bits x 6 dB/bit = -96dB). What's your setup, and which patch is this?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1375249 - 02/16/10 02:09 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Richard Stark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 278
Loc: Hälsingland, Sweden
Thanks dewster for all your work with the analysis. smile

I do not see the problem with looping though. To me it seems to be imitating the decay of a real piano good enough. Can you make a comparable graph with your Young Chang playing the same note?

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#1375259 - 02/16/10 02:25 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Richard Stark]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Richard Stark
Thanks dewster for all your work with the analysis. smile

I do not see the problem with looping though. To me it seems to be imitating the decay of a real piano good enough. Can you make a comparable graph with your Young Chang playing the same note?


Excellent idea. Let's get some acoustic pianos into the comparison.

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#1375280 - 02/16/10 03:58 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
sdw91 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/02/09
Posts: 8
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: sdw91
Ok hopefully this is a bit better

Much better! Noise floor @ -57dB (lowest theoretical is approx. 16 bits x 6 dB/bit = -96dB). What's your setup, and which patch is this?


Great, that was with the default "Grand Piano", and now I realise it would also have had (my) default reverb setting of "Hall 2", which I should have turned off.

I'll do another one tonight, with no reverb!

I recorded it via the L/R RCA outputs to the line in on my MacBook, using Audacity, and its built in mp3 export (which uses Lame)

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#1375445 - 02/16/10 11:00 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: sdw91]
kiedysktos. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 425
Loc: Europe, Poland
Dewster, thanks for your explanations, these layers and stretching are surprisingly very clear to notice.

And real grand piano would be great for comparison.
_________________________
Roland FP-4

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#1375472 - 02/16/10 11:39 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: kiedysktos.]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
@dewster,

finally I've made it to record my KAWAI CA-63 (sound is also identical to KAWAI CA-93).

You'll find the file here:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/wnyzmd2hyqw/KAWAI_CA_63.mp3

Thanks in advance for you analysis!
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1375482 - 02/16/10 11:52 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Richard Stark]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ

Warning! Anyone who believes technical analysis of DP output is meaningless, or believes that I believe the DPBSD is the ultimate test of a DP, or believes the analysis files are fake or doctored in some way, or for whatever reason can't handle the truth, is strongly cautioned to avoid reading this post.

Originally Posted By: Richard Stark
I do not see the problem with looping though. To me it seems to be imitating the decay of a real piano good enough. Can you make a comparable graph with your Young Chang playing the same note?

I don't have a laptop anymore so it's difficult at this point for me to record our piano upstairs. Fortunately, I do have the VintAudio sample of a real C7 handy, so I'll use that for comparison purposes here.

To make the spectral plots clearer, I applied a 10:1 compressor to the notes, then normalized the peak to -1 dB. Any "hash" you see towards the end of the note decay is due to degrading SNR (rise of the noise floor with decreasing signal due to the applied heavy compression). I do wish Audition had some way to make the spectral graphs clearer without doing this, as it would make my job of analysis much easier.


VintAudio spectral phase view of C4 note.


CP1 spectral phase view of C4 note. Cursor at looping point.


VintAudio spectral pan view of C5 note.


CP1 spectral pan view of C5 note. Cursor at looping point.

If you look closely at the time axis in the displays you will notice that they are very close to the same for both the VintAudio and CP1 note samples. So you can easily see that the CP1 decay is noticeably faster, though presumably you can adjust that. It would probably make the looping more audible though. As I've said before, I've come to see fast decay as a way to hide looping, and therefore see it as a negative thing. Unnaturally fast decay also sounds fake to my ears.

_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1375503 - 02/16/10 12:20 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
BazC Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 711
Loc: Cambridgeshire, UK
Originally Posted By: dewster
Warning! Anyone who believes technical analysis of DP output is meaningless, or believes that I believe the DPBSD is the ultimate test of a DP, or believes the analysis files are fake or doctored in some way, or for whatever reason can't handle the truth, is strongly cautioned to avoid reading this post.


My we're getting touchy aren't we!? wink For the record I don't think your tests are meaningless I just don't think it's a good way to judge a musical instrument.

Interesting to see the differences between DPs and APs though!

Can you show the same thing for Pianoteq? I'd be fascinated to see how a fully modelled piano looks.
_________________________

Korg SP200, Pianoteq

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#1375510 - 02/16/10 12:32 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: sdw91]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: sdw91
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: sdw91
Ok hopefully this is a bit better

Much better! Noise floor @ -57dB (lowest theoretical is approx. 16 bits x 6 dB/bit = -96dB). What's your setup, and which patch is this?


Great, that was with the default "Grand Piano", and now I realise it would also have had (my) default reverb setting of "Hall 2", which I should have turned off.

I'll do another one tonight, with no reverb!

I recorded it via the L/R RCA outputs to the line in on my MacBook, using Audacity, and its built in mp3 export (which uses Lame)


You can get slightly better results recording in Garage Band using 24-bit input and export modes. And then the MP3 encoding can use the Fraunhofer encoder which (as much as a like open sourse) is much better than Lame. Lame has to work around to many of Fraunhofer's patents but Apple includes the the Fraunhofer encoder so take advantage of it.

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#1375512 - 02/16/10 12:33 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Colleen_500 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/10
Posts: 34
Loc: Canada
These tests are very interesting, Dewster, but not as compelling as Lawrence's and Dr.Popper's reviews of the CP-1.

So significant that I ordered a CP-1 this morning, as did one of my students.

I think Yamaha has a winner on it's hands with this instrument; I know I trust Lawrence's(Melodialworks) and Dr.Popper's real world, hands on experiences far more than putting any real confidence in a bunch of tests.

These guys are pros in every sense of the word.

All in all, it still comes down to what is important in an instrument, and it's much easier, and far safer, to take the word of respected and talented players, than it is to look at squiggly lines on a screen.

Soul can't be analysed with a computer.

Best regards,

Colleen

PS. My thanks to Lawrence and Dr.Popper, and to you as well, Dewster.

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#1375521 - 02/16/10 12:43 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: BazC]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: BazC
Originally Posted By: dewster
Warning! Anyone who believes technical analysis of DP output is meaningless, or believes that I believe the DPBSD is the ultimate test of a DP, or believes the analysis files are fake or doctored in some way, or for whatever reason can't handle the truth, is strongly cautioned to avoid reading this post.


My we're getting touchy aren't we!? wink For the record I don't think your tests are meaningless I just don't think it's a good way to judge a musical instrument.



It's called "overcompensation"...and you're right, the tests aren't meaningless...a little tedious, maybe, but ultimately the instrument, and the DP is an instrument in it's own right, will have a hit or miss based on how it feels, sounds, and how it responds to player input.

I like Colleen's remark..."Soul can't be analysed with a computer."

That about sums it up for me too.

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1375532 - 02/16/10 12:51 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Colleen_500]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2396
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Colleen,

You've ordered a CP1 because Dr Popper and Lawrence like it? Would I be right to assume you haven't played one yourself? If so I really hope it works out for you...The CP1 does sound very very good from what little is available at the moment but even so, to buy just on the recommendation of others is a big leap of faith.

When do you expect to get it? Let us know what you think when it comes.

Best wishes,

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1375539 - 02/16/10 12:57 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
zaba19 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 33
I have uploaded a recording of Roland HP-307. The input level wasn't great, I hope normalization didn't screw anything.
http://www.mediafire.com/?2mwkmyhrzny

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#1375540 - 02/16/10 12:58 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: snazzyplayer]
Richard Stark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 278
Loc: Hälsingland, Sweden
Thanks dewster! cool

Now I know the difference and understand a little more about your talk about loooping. The real piano seems to have a very complex decay compared to the digital one.

You have to be very clear and basic about the technical parts, because spectral analysis is not the usual occupation for most of us. crazy

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#1375566 - 02/16/10 01:17 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Richard Stark]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
The more I read from several people like Colleen_500 here how deficient, inaccurate and even biased and manipulative this test appears to them (especially those who like the CP-1) this all evokes an uneasy feeling in me. There is no need for test bashing at all! We all have now understood your reservations. Let's move on! Colleen_500, it's great to hear that you are now ordering a CP-1 just because of the word of someone else you trust. I would never buy a DP without playing it for an extended period of time. Never.

I think we all have understood that you don't trust this test, so please... let us techie geeks just compare the test results to see what (maybe not completely accurate) technology, sampling length etc. lies behind the different models, and you can discuss the (never heard it but I trust you) great sounding quality of CP-1 and others at another thread. I would of course then join you there, without even mentioning this thread...
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1375569 - 02/16/10 01:21 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
Colleen_500 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/10
Posts: 34
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Colleen,

You've ordered a CP1 because Dr Popper and Lawrence like it? Would I be right to assume you haven't played one yourself? If so I really hope it works out for you...The CP1 does sound very very good from what little is available at the moment but even so, to buy just on the recommendation of others is a big leap of faith.

When do you expect to get it? Let us know what you think when it comes.

Best wishes,

Steve


Hi Steve,

Yes I have ordered one; actually, the store is bringing in two anyway. I'm not committed to buy, and neither is my student.

I have correspondence with several other users who aren't on this forum, and they confirm what Lawrence and Dr. Popper have been saying as well.

These players are also professionals.

I haven't heard one bad comment; not one.

Remember, "Piano World" is not the end all be all for finding out an instrument's performance or potential.

So, it is not as much as a "leap of faith", but rather, I would consider it as a much more informed, and confident, move.

Have you played one yet?

The instruments are back-ordered; I suspect it's because they are quite popular.

Best regards,

Colleen

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Baldwin capo: a metallic-buzz sound generating system
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MP11 sustain pedal (F30) release: possible issue?
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Chopin - Scherzo 1 Help
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