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Holy Toledo that was fast!

Thanks to the moderator(s).

Aaaand... we're sticky! Thanks to the moderator & superwang!!

Is there a way you could summarize the test result?

By that I mean ...
I've looked at you listing, posted on some file share somewhere. But it's hard to see the whole picture.

It would be useful to have a spreadsheet with a list of models, and columns showing pass/fail (or other metric) for each of your functional tests. Something like this:

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .test . test . test ...
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . #1 .. #2 .. #3 ....
Yamaha .. CVP501 .... F .... P ..... F .....
Yamaha .. CVP503 .... F .... P ..... P .....
Yamaha .. CVP505 .... P .... P ..... P .....
.
Roland .... HP201 ...... F .... P ..... F .....
Roland .... HP203 ...... P .... P ..... F .....
Roland .... HP207 ...... P .... P ..... P .....
.
.
(Or maybe you already have that online and I've missed it??)

KAWAI James asked me the same thing a while ago. Such a table might be a handy thing to have, but it would be a can of worms doing it in any kind of objective way as there are problems with assigning P/F or numbers to many of the tests. For instance, the looping, stretching, and layer tests are performed mainly to investigate behavior, and many DPs only partially pass or fail the various pedal / key / resonance tests. Any numbers I might assign would be more subjective than my actual measurements, and thus wide open to debate (= time suck).

This isn't a DP battle to the death cage match - though that sounds like fun! All I ever intended to accomplish with it was the examination of the sound generation technology in various DPs, and at the same time give people a chance to hear note decay and sympathetic resonance up-close and in isolation, something that seemingly never happens in standard demo songs (and usually for understandable reasons).

The SN sounds can be VERY thin and bright when played forte, and this is something I really like. And yes, for soft playing it is nice and dark, so it's very expressive. The main thing lacking for me is that the interesting frilly bits are missing. It's like looking at the fiords of Norway after having been traced over by a kid with a crayon. :^) FYI I'm basing all this on demos and a brief hands-on.

Greg.

Thanks Greg, I'm very interested in any criticism of the SN sound. Could you elaborate?

My theory (pure conjecture) is that, unless it is really, really well done and highly finessed, something essential is almost always lost when huge amounts of compression (however it's done) are applied to an organic sample set. The hybrid approach seems to offer the most promise, I just don't know if we are or aren't there yet. The glacial pace of DP technology makes me assume the latter, but I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

I just mean that it sounds very processed and refined compares to how a real piano sounds. In a real piano, each note has it's own character, and some notes may even sound a slightly quirky with a bit of a twang or something. In general there are lots of little artifacts in the real thing that are hard to describe - I just don't hear the same detail in this Roland SN. However, I think it sounds VERY good! (it'd be cool if they released a software version, or a hardware module, too)

Greg.

Special Begging Post

I'd really appreciate anyone contributing DPBSD MP3s of the following:

- Yamaha CP50 - CFIII grand (default piano)
- Yamaha CP1 or CP5 - S6 grand
- Casio Privia PX-3 - grand piano 1 (default piano)

Any other suggestions? I'm thinking of adding a permanent begging section to the initial post.

-----------------

If anyone wants to redo any of the older DPBSD MP3 files with the very latest MIDI file (v1.8) that would be cool too.

-----------------

Also, I'm very still open to adding a short musical passage to the DPBSD test. Ideally it would have a variety of:
- dynamics (light, med, & hard played velocity)
- pitch (low, mid, & high pitch notes)
- tempo (slow, med, & fast played notes)

And:
- played by a human, not sequenced
- sounds pretty / interesting
- no copyright issues

Maybe it's asking too much to cover most of that in 90 seconds max? I'll listen to any suggestions.


Thanks!

I agree to some extent...it is certainly a very refined sound. But, Greg, what you are talking about is not present in any DP that I've played. Although they often fall short, manufacturers are aiming for perfection after all...and this means the quirky elements (or imperfections) are removed. I think you'd agree that the perfect Steinway (or whatever) prepared painstakingly would be short of imperfections or quirkiness. The problem with quirkiness in piano sounds is that a manufacturer would alienate far more people than they would attract. Although we would probably all like some imperfections (or character, call it what you will), the problem is we would all like DIFFERENT imperfections. The way to gain the maximum acceptance is to make it as perfect as they can within the limitations of the technology used.

My thoughts anyway.

Steve

Large sample libraries cover most of the bases for me though - that's the point I'm trying to make. They have ALL the sound! So, at the moment, I'd prefer Roland to put multi-GB sampled piano into a DP, at least as an option. I'd also like them to release this as software. (ditto for all brands - I am not singling out Roland)

Apparently they do put more sample memory into the higher end DPs - I understand that. (e.g there's a high end Kawai with FULL length samples, if I understand correctly)

Regarding software pianos, I know that at the moment none of them(?) do some of the finer behavioural things as well as a good DP though. For this, we need Pianoteq, but I prefer the sound and clarity of samples to Pianoteq at the moment. I'm not saying that Pianoteq is not capable of fooling me into thinking I am listening to a real piano - it's just that when I switch back and forth between them, there's a quantum increase in sound quality with the samples.

Greg.

Wow, what DP is that?

The DP1.

I mentioned it to you a little while ago after you questioned why manufacturers hadn't moved over to PC-based hardware running Linux.

The instrument was perhaps a little too advanced for the intended market (button-less touch screen operation), and I expect dealers struggled to explain to customers why they would have to wait for their piano to boot-up (i.e. load samples into memory). However it was a great idea, and had it been released today I'm sure you'd be singing its praises.

Cheers,
James
x

I don't remember that (my fault I'm sure) - could you provide a link to your post?

I remember a post from James very clearly, however it was directed to me. I had said that I suspected that the DP1 was NOT using a general purpose PC for audio - just management. James corrected me. It was in that thread about the Crumar digital piano that runs Pianoteq.

Greg.

Ah, that was it.

Thanks Greg, and my apologies to you dewster for the incorrect reference.

Cheers,
James
x

The DP1 is here:
http://www.kawai.de/service/dp1_katalog.pdf

I think the problem is the price tag. For that price you can buy two Kawai silent pianos or one Kawai Baby Grand.

Typical customers that need all those features will probably prefer a real Baby Grand and typical DP users dont want to pay the price and will expect a realistic pedal action and a 3-sensor keyboard with escapement and Ivory touch nowadays.
He will probably not want to pay 5.1 surround sound.
At least I would prefer a used RX2 that has surround sound too ;-)

It is made for a target customer group that doesnt exist.

DPBSD MP3 Popularity

I was curious as to what MP3 files people were downloading and presumably listening to, so I went and did a bunch of text grabs of the MediFire directories, then a bunch of editing to pare away the chaff. The numbers of course reflect length of time posted as well as popularity.

Another caveat: Martin C. Doege reports that his Yamaha P85 DPBSD MP3 got 82 hits and about 54 complete downloads at his server, so perhaps most people get the MP3s directly from the source post rather than my MediaFire account - thanks Martin!

Here they are if anyone else is interested, I left off the manufacturers that had 5 or fewer downloads. In terms of hardware DPs there seems to be a lot of interest in Casio, Kawai, Yamaha P155 & CP1, and Roland SN:

CASIO
75 dp_bsd_v1.3_casio_px330.mp3

KAWAI
72 dp_bsd_v1.3_kawai_ca63.mp3
26 dp_bsd_v1.4_kawai_mp5_ver1.15.mp3
17 dpbsd_v1.7_kawai_cn33_concert_grand_1.mp3
05 dpbsd_v1.7_kawai_cn33_studio_grand_1.mp3
02 dpbsd_v1.7_kawai_cn33_mellow_grand_1.mp3

PIANOTEQ
69 dp_bsd_v1.3_pt_v3.5.2.mp3
13 dpbsd_v1.6_Pianoteq_3.6.0_K1_SR_X-2I1_Imp3.mp3
10 dp_bsd_v1.4_Pianoteq_v3.5.3beta.mp3

YAMAHA
65 dp_bsd_v1.3_yamaha_p155.mp3
51 dp_bsd_v1.3_yamaha_cp1.mp3
28 dp_bsd_v1.3_Yamaha_MotifXS8_FullConcertGrand.mp3
27 dp_bsd_v1.3_yamaha_p120.mp3
27 dp_bsd_v1.5_yamaha_avant_grand_n3.mp3
17 dp_bsd_v1.4_yamaha_clp330_dr5.mp3
16 dp_bsd_v1.4_yamaha_clp330_max_res.mp3
13 dp_bsd_v1.3_yamaha_ydp223_gp1.mp3
12 dp_bsd_v1.5_yamaha_s90xs_natural_grand_s6.mp3
10 dp_bsd_v1.3_yamaha_p80.mp3
04 dpbsd_v1.8_yamaha_p-85.mp3
02 dp_bsd_v1.4_yamaha_motif_rack_es_full_grand.mp3
01 dp_bsd_v1.5_yamaha_clp-990.mp3

ROLAND
48 dp_bsd_v1.4_Roland_RD-700GX_K-RD700GX1_SuperNATURAL-Grand_Piano_no_sympres.mp3
43 dp_bsd_v1.3_roland_v-piano_vintage1.mp3
43 dp_bsd_v1.4_Roland_HP-307.mp3
17 dp_bsd_v1.3_roland_jv1010_session.mp3
17 dp_bsd_v1.3_roland_rd-700sx_superior_grand.mp3
14 dp_bsd_v1.3_roland_rd-700sx_x_ultimate.mp3

IVORY
39 dp_bsd_v1.3_ivory_steinway.mp3
27 dp_bsd_v1.3_ivory_bosey.mp3
25 dp_bsd_v1.3_ivory_italian.mp3
19 dp_bsd_v1.3_ivory_yamaha.mp3

GARRITAN
27 dp_bsd_v1.3_garritan_steinway_pro_close.mp3

GALAXY
27 dp_bsd_v1.3_galaxy2DE_steinway.mp3
11 dp_bsd_v1.5_galaxy_vintage_d.mp3
06 dp_bsd_v1.3_galaxy2DE_viennagrand.mp3

ACOUSTICA
15 dp_bsd_v1.4_acoustica_pianissimo.mp3

KORG
12 dp_bsd_v1.5_korg_sv1_grand_piano_1.mp3
05 dpbsd_v1.7_korg_sp-250.mp3
04 dp_bsd_v1.5_korg_sv1_grand_piano_2.mp3
04 dp_bsd_v1.5_korg_sv1_electric_grand.mp3

Here's another link: http://www.kawai.de/dp1_en.htm

Doing a quick search, the only pricing I can find on the web for the DP1 lists it as $8,000-$10,000 USD. I believe that's less than half the price of the AvantGrand N3, which I would think would be pretty much the same target audience.

I'm not normally a fan of these grand-shaped DPs, but that hidden touch screen is really nifty. And it isn't looped, something the AG can't claim. Too bad it died.

James, did it ever go into production?

Yes, it was built here in Japan at a DP factory north of Hamamatsu.

I believe the product was first shown at Frankfurt Musikmesse in 2006 (possibly before).

As suggested previously, I loved the concept (and still do), however the instrument was rather expensive and consequently difficult to sell to consumers unfamiliar with iPhones and computers running VSTi.

Cheers,
James
x

Do you know how many (ballpark) were manufactured? What was the MSRP (USD)?


Times do change - it seems as though it could use use a resurrecting. That smoked touchscreen is awesome, it really hides the controls. I'd love a slab with those (no protruding knobs/sliders to get broken). And the no-looping thing was ahead of its time - heck, it's ahead of NOW - give me that too.

Get well soon James!