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#1377569 - 02/18/10 06:34 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4367
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: zaba19
key-up samples - is it key-off resonance? if yes it is audible, very subtle with default setting, only obvious once I turned it off (0) and maxed (10) to know what to look for smile
pedal down - yes, very subtle with default setting
pedal up - can't hear
sympathetic resonance - when I test it myself I definitely hear it on my piano; not as trained to know if it's in mp3

Im sorry for some glitches you can hear on first notes. I tried recording this 3 times and I always had 2 or 3 glitches somewhere in the file. This one was actually least intrusive. If it's unsatisfying I can give it another go.
I didn't touch the file (no equalization), only boosted +5dB input level in Audition while recording.

Thanks! The levels in the file are better. And glitches aren't that big of a deal. I archived the file at the share point. Are you recording to a 44.1kHz 32 bit float and then saving as MP3?

I still don't hear key-up or pedal sounds, and I don't hear or see sympathetic resonance:


An amplitude view of the second and third phases of the sympathetic resonance test.

Normally the right hand tail amplitude looks larger and sounds different (spacier) than the one on the left if there is sympathetic resonance. Here they look identical.

If you want to turn all the effects up and give it another go, I'd definitely be interested! Hope this isn't driving you too crazy.

I also notice the extra pedal event in the DPBSD v1.4 file is particularly revealing of the partial pedaling in your HP, which is nice to see. You have to push the pedal most of the way down I suppose before you start hearing the effect?
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The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1377573 - 02/18/10 06:42 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9687
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: dewster
Oh. I thought the firmware update was supposed to fix this? Or was that another Kawai model?


Please re-read my post - I wasn't certain that a firmware update would improve string/damper resonance, just that "it's quite possible". Batak suggested that these additional effects could indeed be heard when playing back the MIDI file, hence my suggestion to update the firmware.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1377666 - 02/18/10 09:48 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Rodney]
ocd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/10/06
Posts: 201
Loc: North East
Originally Posted By: Rodney
... Keyboards/DPs trounce sample libraries for that feeling of being connected to the instrument and the better instruments are "Good Enough" in their realism to not leave you feeling like you are playing anything other than a Piano.


That is also my experience. I would rather play my MP8 than Ivory or Pianoteq. The MP8 experience is much more immediate.

ocd


Edited by ocd (02/18/10 09:50 PM)
Edit Reason: fixing typo.
_________________________
"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen."

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#1377886 - 02/19/10 04:42 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
zaba19 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 33
Originally Posted By: dewster
Are you recording to a 44.1kHz 32 bit float and then saving as MP3?

I'll check the settings when I get home, they were probably left default.
Originally Posted By: dewster
Normally the right hand tail amplitude looks larger and sounds different (spacier) than the one on the left if there is sympathetic resonance. Here they look identical.

I'll listen with headphones directly on the piano this particular part of midi file and report back. Maybe I took sympathetic resonance for another effect. Im not really that good in this terminology frown
Originally Posted By: dewster
If you want to turn all the effects up and give it another go, I'd definitely be interested! Hope this isn't driving you too crazy.

No problem at all smile
Originally Posted By: dewster
I also notice the extra pedal event in the DPBSD v1.4 file is particularly revealing of the partial pedaling in your HP, which is nice to see. You have to push the pedal most of the way down I suppose before you start hearing the effect?

I think I have to press the pedal quite low to start hearing it but that's by no means objective observation. My previous piano didn't support half-pedaling and generaly my foot's become accustomed to pressing all the way down or releasing all the way up. During my piano lessons on my teacher's grand I got sometimes told to press less on some parts of music but there was just no means for me to practice half-pedaling. Since I don't have any experience with this I can't tell if what my piano simulates is how pianos should work or if the effect should start earlier.
I guess I could sit with headphones and try to evaluate at which point exactly I start hearing this. I should probably teach my foot to press with less force anyway and listen what effect it can really bring. Oh the joy of new options, gotta try it on Debussy laugh

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#1378053 - 02/19/10 11:20 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4367
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
Please re-read my post - I wasn't certain that a firmware update would improve string/damper resonance, just that "it's quite possible". Batak suggested that these additional effects could indeed be heard when playing back the MIDI file, hence my suggestion to update the firmware.

My apologies, James. There have been so many firmware update posts it's hard for me to keep them straight. And I hope you don't think that's a veiled dig at you or Kawai.

James, I'm curious. I know your sig says you are employed by Kawai, but your opinions are your own. Are you here in a professional capacity? That is, does Kawai pay you to read and post here? Or are you doing this entirely on your own time? I ask this not to be confrontational in any way, but because I'd rather not pester you with company-related questions to if you are on your own time (unless I absolutely have).
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1378069 - 02/19/10 11:45 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4367
Loc: Northern NJ
This morning I downloaded the Acoustica Pianissimo and ran the DPBSD over it. I believe the only limitation to the demo is that it will time-out after 14 days, which is really nice. The stand-alone mode could use a WAV recorder, but otherwise it is very nicely done and has a built-in MIDI player. I didn't experience any problems with the GUI or with my sound card, it worked right off the bat.

It sounds pretty good given the limited sample size, though the looping of the mids and highs could use some work, as could the sympathetic resonance and partial pedaling. A bit too much stretching for my tastes too.

The loop section of the sample is fairly visible, so I included the lengths of those in the report too.

I like the way Acoustica tells you the sample size and the layer count. This kind of testing wouldn't be so necessary if everyone did that.

MP3 and review are in the archive. I also modified the readme a bit to clarify the general recording procedure.


---------------------------
- Pianissimo 1.0 Build 12 -
---------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.4_acoustica_pianissimo.mp3
- "Solo Grand Piano" default preset, reverb off, master volume 70%.
- Stand-alone mode, Echo MIA SPDIF I/O, Adobe Audition.
PROS:
- Note decay is nice and long, with low note loops long enough to "wobble".
- Large dynamic range (~50dB, vel=1:127).
- Key up and pedal samples.
- 4 velocity layers.
- Velocity layer switch @ vel=54,80,102.
- Fairly good velocity layer matching with possible filtering.
- Some kind of sympathetic resonance? Fairly subtle.
CONS:
- Note decay is looped, so timbre evolution is lacking (needs progressive LP filter).
- C6 to C9 loops are audible, too short and fake sounding.
- Obviously stretched, group transitions fairly audible.
- Stretch distances: 4,3,4,2,2,2,1,2,1,2,2,2,1,2,2,1,2,1(x5),2,2,1,2,2,2,1,2,2,1,2,1(x4),2,1,2,1(x19) = 34 groups.
- Sample lengths are (C2:C9) 5.1,7.0,6.6,4.3,3.0,3.4,2.0,? seconds.
- Loop lengths are (C2:C9) 3.5,3.8,1.5,2.7,0.7,0.25,0.22,? seconds.
- Velocity layers clearly visible, not obviously blended.
- Audible velocity layer switch @ vel=54.
- No response to partial pedaling.
- Pedal down sample is a "knock" rather than a "loom of strings".
OTHER:
- C7 sample has small DC offset.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-19

_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1378091 - 02/19/10 12:05 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4367
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Excellent results from the HP-307. I assume a similar result would be obtained from the new Supernatural upgrade kit for the RD-700GX...

I've been wondering about that myself.

If anyone owns an RD-700GX with the Supernatural upgrade kit (Dr Popper?), if you upload a DPBSD sample I'll definitely spend some time comparing it to the HP-307 to see if there are any differences. This is a very intriguing sampling and playback process that Roland has. It seems almost explicitly designed to foil the DPBSD test (as their videos - that predate the DPBSD test I should add - show)! Too bad it isn't available in a less expensive DP yet.


Edited by dewster (02/19/10 01:14 PM)
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The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1378147 - 02/19/10 01:05 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9687
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
dewster, I can recall two recent posts related to firmware updates for KAWAI instruments - once in this thread, where I recommended R0B update his MP5 to the latest v1.15 OS, and once in another thread regarding a crackling noise issue with the new CA63.

Quote:
James, I'm curious. I know your sig says you are employed by Kawai, but your opinions are your own. Are you here in a professional capacity? That is, does Kawai pay you to read and post here? Or are you doing this entirely on your own time? I ask this not to be confrontational in any way, but because I'd rather not pester you with company-related questions to if you are on your own time (unless I absolutely have).


My primary responsibility at KAWAI Japan is to create owner's manual and brochures for instruments sold overseas, although my job also encompasses a range of other tasks. I visit this forum during my working day, but also - as is the case right now - at home, during my free time. Contributing to this forum allows me to provide information about KAWAI instruments (often correcting mis-information), and also provides an excellent opportunity to communicate with fellow digital piano enthusiasts directly.

In one sense, yes I do consider my presence here in a professional capacity - I have learnt a tremendous amount about digital pianos from fellow forum members including yourself, and believe my work for KAWAI has benefited as a result. However, as I also enjoy visiting the forum in my spare time; reading the thoughts of others, and often posting my own messages, you might say I'm also here in a non-professional capacity too. wink

I really don't mind answering questions related to KAWAI, provided they do not call upon me to reveal potentially harmful information regarding proprietary technology or other confidential matters. I try to be as honest as possible with my posts and responses, aiming to answers queries in a clear, objective manner. At the end of the day, I contribute to PianoWorld out of my own free will - nobody at KAWAI forces me, or even recommends that I maintain a presence here. Indeed, this arguably grants me a degree of freedom to express my own opinions, rather than just be a spokesperson for the company.

I know that there are still a few folks here who appear somewhat sceptical as to whether my intentions are truly genuine, and that's to be expected. All I can really do is just keep on doing what I'm doing - I've been a member of this forum for over two and a half years, and have posted almost 900 messages (most of which have been useful, I hope...) - if I really was a shill, I guess I would have been found by now, surely?

Anyway, I hope that answers your questions. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1378201 - 02/19/10 01:56 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
James

Your contributions never seem biased towards Kawai to me. In fact I sometimes think you could go further than you do in publicizing the unique selling points of the Kawai product. You are also very gracious in your praise for the products of the other makers where you feel this is deserved. And you support Norwich FC.

Cheers

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1378252 - 02/19/10 02:58 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3102
Loc: Oregon
What? You don't support Ipswich Town FC, Steve? What price loyalty, these days?

Oh, and +1 with regard to KAWAI James' great contribution.
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Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#1378281 - 02/19/10 03:56 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4367
Loc: Northern NJ
Thank you James for clarifying the nature of your presence on this board. You have indeed been unfailingly helpful and fair in your advice to others, which is something I think we can all very much appreciate, and you should be highly commended for it.

And let me apologize again for my earlier brash (some, including myself I'm afraid, would say rude) behavior towards you. Please forgive me.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1378289 - 02/19/10 04:02 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4367
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: zaba19
Originally Posted By: dewster
Are you recording to a 44.1kHz 32 bit float and then saving as MP3?

I'll check the settings when I get home, they were probably left default.

After you open Audition to record, do this:

File | New...

and set the "Sample Rate" to "44100",
the "Channels" to "Stereo",
and the "Resolution" to "32-bit (float)".

Then click "OK".
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1378291 - 02/19/10 04:05 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
madshi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 62
Originally Posted By: dewster
If anyone owns an RD-700GX with the Supernatural upgrade kit

And if anyone owns an RD-700GX without the Supernatural upgrade kit, an MP3 would be welcome, too, because I think the RD-700GX's AP is different compared to the already tested RD-700SX.

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#1378302 - 02/19/10 04:31 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: madshi]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Yes, the GX introduced the "Expressive Grand", which is supposed to be its principle piano voice in addition to the carry-over of the two sample sets from the SX (Superior and another that I can't remember). Having played the GX I don't think from memory that I was blown away by the Expressive Grand...it was ok but nothing special as I recall but certainly worth testing for the DPBSD.

Voxpops...Ipswich Town FC...pah!

Cheers,

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1378357 - 02/19/10 05:38 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9687
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Thank you for the kinds words chaps. wink

dewster, no problem. We had a bit of a rough patch a few months ago, but that's all in the past - I think you've more than made up for all that by providing lots of great technical insights for all us DP geeks. wink

voxpops, Steve's a "Lew-stuff boi" - torn between Canary Green and Tractor Blue. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1378383 - 02/19/10 06:04 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4367
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Dewster, adding your interpretation of the test to the subjective impression of the sound of the notes, what is your favourite so far?

Others here seem to have a much more definite and refined opinion of what they want & don't want to hear in terms of sound than I do. That's why I tend to limit my subjective comments to the technical results of the test, rather than the tone. For instance, I feel competent enough to say whether string decay sounds realistic or not, but not whether a particular midrange sounds like a Steinway or not. I also try to judge older instruments in the context of their time and their peers, but I'm not the world's best DP historian.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1378388 - 02/19/10 06:09 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Ha ha! Lew-stuff boi...said like a true carrot-cruncher. Try using a bit of authentic East Anglian gibberish in Hamamatsu! "thas on the huh boy!" Off topic or what?!
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1378393 - 02/19/10 06:12 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Fair comments Dewster...In terms of subjective impressions if I could arrange a virtual DP showroom I would love the play the Yamaha CP1 (and 5) against an RD-700GX with the Supernatural upgrade against a new Kawai MP with the improved action and Ultra Progressive Harmonic doo-dahs etc.

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1378633 - 02/20/10 02:54 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Fair comments Dewster...In terms of subjective impressions if I could arrange a virtual DP showroom I would love the play the Yamaha CP1 (and 5) against an RD-700GX with the Supernatural upgrade against a new Kawai MP with the improved action and Ultra Progressive Harmonic doo-dahs etc.

Steve


Yes, and for those of us who aren't lucky enough to already own one, said showroom would also contain a Roland VPiano in the line up.

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#1378800 - 02/20/10 12:17 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: madshi]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4367
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: madshi
And if anyone owns an RD-700GX without the Supernatural upgrade kit, an MP3 would be welcome, too, because I think the RD-700GX's AP is different compared to the already tested RD-700SX.

I welcome any and all DPBSD MP3 files. I kind of prefer newer stuff with possible wider interest, but older stuff is fine too.

It's kind of incredible that everyone has been doing pretty much the same damn thing for the last 10 years, with the introduction of layer blending only very recently. The engineering process apparently always starts with a small fixed ROM size and works backwards from there.

Unfortunately, I haven't reviewed very many that are complex enough to support a "soul", or even be considered alive in any significant way. These days, DPs with 2 second looped and stretched samples, however well done, are dangerously skirting the toy category IMO. Armed with the DPBSD, I can rest easier knowing I won't get stuck paying big bucks for old school crap dressed up in fancy new trappings.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1379030 - 02/20/10 06:07 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
kiedysktos. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 425
Loc: Europe, Poland
This thread looks like clearly technical stuff, though it made me wondering about some aspects of my reaction to modern DP's sound. For example, in some DP's many notes were very unnatural to my ears (specially the lowest).
And this project was able to explain the reason of my psychoacoustic impression on those pianos - stretching... now when I know, what to look for, I can say WHY some pianos sounded so unreal to me. Just listen to some mp3s from this project page in a moment when all notes are played one after another chromatically... you can clearly hear stretching; and it's so clear and obvious, that no matter is it .mp3 or .wav; it makes many notes sound dead. And when I hear Roland HP307, every note sound great, I hear no stretching... no groups of notes, every one lives it's own way. Of course other factors, as looping or resonance has important impact on overall DP impression, but my conclusion is: this technical analysis (even if it has it's mistakes) can be very useful and educational.
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Roland FP-4

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#1379235 - 02/20/10 11:38 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: kiedysktos.]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4367
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: kiedysktos.
This thread looks like clearly technical stuff, though it made me wondering about some aspects of my reaction to modern DP's sound. For example, in some DP's many notes were very unnatural to my ears (specially the lowest).
And this project was able to explain the reason of my psychoacoustic impression on those pianos - stretching... now when I know, what to look for, I can say WHY some pianos sounded so unreal to me.

Same here. It's actually kind of a relief to know just what it is I'm hearing that sounds good or bad, rather than having vague feelings about audible clues. Listening and seeing combined is an amazing thing, it really cuts through the hype.

Originally Posted By: kiedysktos.
Just listen to some mp3s from this project page in a moment when all notes are played one after another chromatically... you can clearly hear stretching; and it's so clear and obvious, that no matter is it .mp3 or .wav; it makes many notes sound dead.

These are generally gross issues in the sound, easily visible and generally audible in either file format. Most of the fine visual "fingerprint" detail is preserved in the MP3, which makes more sense to me now. The MP3 compression process really can't play too many games with the L & R phase without messing up the stereo field.

Originally Posted By: kiedysktos.
...this technical analysis (even if it has it's mistakes) can be very useful and educational.

Honestly, I am trying very hard to be as accurate as I can, and to treat every sample fairly, regardless of manufacturer. I do not work nor have I worked in the music industry (and probably never will - at this point I'm probably blacklisted from that club laugh ). I'm just some unemployed engineer in NJ with too much time on his hands, but literally anyone can do this and see it for themselves. It's not rocket science in the slightest.

Please check my results. Download the Adobe Audition trial and open one of the DPBSD MP3 files - you may want to start with a particularly egregious offender for training, such as the Roland JV-1010. Look at it using the three different views: Waveform, Spectral Pan, Spectral Phase (I find the Spectral Frequency view to be not very useful for this) while adjusting the horizontal zoom (and sometimes vertical for the Waveform view). Try also playing back the file while looking at it, to better correlate what you are seeing with the sound. That's 99% of all I'm doing.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1379399 - 02/21/10 06:10 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
CruelStrings Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 138
Awesome project!

I would be very interested in comparing the DP samples with i.e. Kawai Anytime (ATX or AT II), Yamaha Silent or PianoDisc GT-2 /Magic-Star samples.

Since most of us ponder whether to buy a real piano with silent function, or a digital piano with inferior action but midi capability.

Cheers

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#1379767 - 02/21/10 05:44 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: CruelStrings]
zaba19 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 33
Sorry it took so long, here is another file from my HP-307: http://rapidshare.com/files/353954751/dp_bsd_v1.4_Roland_HP-307_all.mp3

The settings I changed were:
damper resonance 10
string resonance 10
key-off 10
duplex scale 10
damper noise 10
cabinet resonance off
reverb off

I looked at the wave-form in the section you showed and I dont think anything changed. Maybe what I had in mind was string resonance, not sympathetic resonance. Sorry for confusion.

As for key-off and pedal samples - I don't think I can hear or see them in the recording but maybe it's something wrong with playing from midi file like in Kawaii? Here you have 2 files I recorded directly from piano:

http://rapidshare.com/files/353950656/key-off.mp3 - 3 notes with key-off set to 10 and 3 with key-off set to 0
http://rapidshare.com/files/353959084/resonance.mp3 - your resonance test (only holding notes + with pedal on, just 6 notes because I dont have 3 hands wink + all with pedal on); also notice that the pedal noise is audible
The recording levels haven't changed from the main recording. You will see that the damper noise is quite quiet but still audible...

What I suspect it that perhaps when playing a midi file the settings from piano designer aren't applied? What do you think? Do you notice difference between my previous file and this? There is so much resonance when playing normaly with all settings to 10 that it's very unnatural and I would never set it like this.

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#1379785 - 02/21/10 06:04 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4367
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: zaba19
Sorry it took so long, here is another file from my HP-307: http://rapidshare.com/files/353954751/dp_bsd_v1.4_Roland_HP-307_all.mp3
...
As for key-off and pedal samples - I don't think I can hear or see them in the recording but maybe it's something wrong with playing from midi file like in Kawaii?

Thanks! Unfortunately, the file is in mono. But it doesn't seem significantly different than your previous files in terms of all the extra noises and resonances.

Originally Posted By: zaba19
Here you have 2 files I recorded directly from piano:
http://rapidshare.com/files/353950656/key-off.mp3 - 3 notes with key-off set to 10 and 3 with key-off set to 0
http://rapidshare.com/files/353959084/resonance.mp3 - your resonance test (only holding notes + with pedal on, just 6 notes because I dont have 3 hands wink + all with pedal on); also notice that the pedal noise is audible
The recording levels haven't changed from the main recording. You will see that the damper noise is quite quiet but still audible...

I can't hear anything different for the key-off recording, but the second one definitely shows off the resonance and pedal down sample! Though both of those are also in mono for some reason.

Originally Posted By: zaba19
What I suspect it that perhaps when playing a midi file the settings from piano designer aren't applied? What do you think? Do you notice difference between my previous file and this? There is so much resonance when playing normaly with all settings to 10 that it's very unnatural and I would never set it like this.

Yes, I suspect that is the case too. I think I've seen other instruments that treat the MIDI input as a separate thing, and require you to input MIDI control or SYSEX to manipulate the various settings for that input.

Are you enjoying the Roland? Anything you particularly like or don't like about it?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1379837 - 02/21/10 06:56 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
zaba19 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 33
Oh ffs why is Audition selecting by default only 1 channel and not both... I forgot to change it but I don't think it will change much if I do it yet again :P

As for key-up - try this with a chord in lower-end of the keyboard:
http://rapidshare.com/files/353985233/key-off_2.mp3

I particularly like the ability to play midi files from USB :P Well as I said earlier my previous piano was 3 generations old and couldnt do it. I learn Beethoven Concerto No. 1 and playing it along with the orchestra and changing tempo to suit me is really awesome and helping a lot.
Other than that - the dynamic range is so nice... Previously I could only really hear and feel fortissimo on my teacher's acoustic, this comes really close now.
Of course I could name many things I like here but it would all be compared to HP3 so don't know if it's of any use... Like keyboard with escapement, the ivory-like material, generaly the action, superior sound (no more looping that was driving me mad), much better implemented left pedal... A leap in technology.


Edited by zaba19 (02/21/10 07:07 PM)

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#1380213 - 02/22/10 09:32 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4367
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: zaba19
As for key-up - try this with a chord in lower-end of the keyboard:
http://rapidshare.com/files/353985233/key-off_2.mp3

Oh, very nice. The key up sound is more of a string damp, rather than a knock sound.

Originally Posted By: zaba19
Other than that - the dynamic range is so nice... Previously I could only really hear and feel fortissimo on my teacher's acoustic, this comes really close now.

My wife is always complaining that DPs have a top output that is generally too easy to reach, and there's nowhere to go after that. Whereas with real pianos you just play harder and it will get louder - there's always more room up there.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1380441 - 02/22/10 03:03 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
elecmuse3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 304
Loc: Cincinnati
Thank you all, for such enthusiasm in your posts. I have the viewpoint of 1: a player in a band, 2: a small background in electronics, and 3: an employee in an acoustic-only piano shop (notwithstanding that some are played mechanically; and some of those without electricity). My 2 cents, similar to several others' comments: the tests and pictures of waveforms are wonderful to have, and a real contribution. This info helps a potential purchaser by giving them info. It is not, nor do I think dewster intended it to be, the only criteria to consider. Above all, PLAY the thing! Listen, get a variety of opinions, wait a day, play it again.

Ultimately, the device exists to be a tool for your use, whether those uses be musical, engineering, egotistic (mine has more layers than yours), or "you got a new car so I get new equipment". Please respect the differences in tool usage.
_________________________
Terry@cincyrockers.com
www.theplayerpianoshop.com

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#1380512 - 02/22/10 05:00 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4367
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: zaba19
Oh ffs why is Audition selecting by default only 1 channel and not both... I forgot to change it but I don't think it will change much if I do it yet again :P

Could you do a short recording of the pedal down resonance again, but this time in stereo?

It seems like the resonance probably sounds good, but I can't really tell in the mono MP3. The mono file sounds like there is some kind of strange beating sound, but I think this is just due to the fact that it is in mono and would like to confirm that.

Have you inquired with Roland as to why the extra pedal and key sounds don't seem to be there when played via MIDI? If they can't be enabled (and we don't know one way or another if they can or can't) then it could be a problem for people who want to record with it.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1380527 - 02/22/10 05:13 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
Cool! I have no bones about what this reveals. I kept my Yamaha P80 for all these years because I just didn't feel like the technology really improved. Modeling is definitely the way of the future, IMHO. I prefer Pianoteq though, because V-Piano is insanely expensive, and it fails my test!

Here's Pianoteq v3.5.3 beta. Keep in mind, Pianoteq allows you to alter the dynamic range. The default is 60db, and I left it that way, but it can be much higher. You can also adjust the action noise, like key release and pedal noise, but I left it default.

dp_bsd_v1.3_Pianoteq_v3.5.3beta.mp3

Preset: C3 Solo Recording, everything default except limiter and reverb are turned off.

Looking forward to the results!
_________________________
Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

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