2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Who's Online Now
66 members (brennbaer, accordeur, antune, Colin Miles, anotherscott, AndyOnThePiano2, benkeys, 12 invisible), 1,850 guests, and 315 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
#1377103 02/18/10 06:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 58
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 58
I am doing two new Classics to Moderns Book 1 per week. The objective is to learn how to sight read music at this standard. When I start a new piece it is very slow and halting. I then practice it something like ten times over per day. I also practise specific difficult bits more and practise hands separate. For the first three days of the week I think I am sight reading. (which I am not according to the strict definition of it i.e. prima vista but at least my eyes are on each note as I play it and I know exactly where I am in the music at all times). The problem is that after about three days I have memorised large sections of the piece without trying to memorise them. The muscle memory takes over and I start playing the piece without reading. It is not then a straight forward matter to force myself to read it. I don't know why I can't force myself to read every note that I have memorised but there it is my eyes might be on the paper but they involuntarily glaze over the bits I have learned. I feel by this time that I am not furthering my aim of learning to sight read pieces at this level. On the other hand I enjoy playing them and in many respects I enjoy playing more and I play better when I have memorised. But I must stress however that my overriding objective is to learn to sight read and I am concerned that this situation is slowing down the rate at which I am acquiring this skill. Maybe I should be doing more pieces per week and stop doing them as soon as I have started to memorise them.

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 495
H
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
H
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 495
I am very similar in this form of involuntary memorization. The problem I get into is the sheet is a crutch that ends up being a mental block to me. I've only really got things partially memorized and I'll freeze up or forget things that shouldn't be forgettable, like what key the piece is in.

To really advance with sight reading you need to work on stuff you've never seen. Go and get a stack of music that is a couple levels below what you can play at and just go through it a couple of pieces a day. Don't sight read any of the pieces more than twice. That number would vary for some, but you want the piece to be unfamiliar to you so you are reading and there's no or very little muscle memory or other memory in the process.

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,337
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,337
Well, I wouldn't be so worried. What you are doing is laying a matrix in your mind for how to process this information, and so the memorising is just happening as you are getting the gist of what's going on. Whether that's muscle or pattern-forming or whatever.

When you play 'from memory' you still have the memory of the score as part of that matrix, and your brain is busy processing that too, even if your eyes are glazing over when you are actually playing the music on day 5 or 6.

Keeping on learning pieces at this same level (and gradually getting harder) is the key - within about six months you will be easily sight reading the pieces that today you are practicing separate hands.

HONESTLY!!! Learning about 30 pieces at each grade level (and learning them really properly, even memorising them) will give you sufficient stylistic breadth to be really progressing when viewed from the perspective of a year or so.

But one suggestion: learn a reasonable proportion of contemporary music - it can be in jazzy styles or in more austere aesthetics, but either way, the contemporary music is generally more demanding to read than classical/baroque.


Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 844
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 844
My, advice, tedhorton, is to read each piece only *once*, in terms of sight-reading practice. Becuase as you know, you only sightread anything once. Any time you play it after that is practice.

This is not to say, however, that you should not learn these pieces. Learn them!! But don't count it as sight reading and dn't worry if it isn't becuase it's not.


Working On:

BACH: Invention No. 13 in a min.
GRIEG: Notturno Op. 54 No. 4
VILLA-LOBOS: O Polichinelo

Next Up:

BACH: Keyboard Concerto in f minor
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
Sight reading is a process of memorising one bar then playing it as you are memorising the next. So, all sight reading is memorising - just to a limited extent. Muscle memory is fine if you only want to play for yourself. It'll let you down in front of others though.

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 125
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 125
Music is one of the easiest things in the world to memorize and one of the few that often happen accidentally, so don't be too worried. I agree with the person who said it's all memorizing to an extent -- you'll see note combinations over and over again.


Looking for piano learning resources or interesting piano stories? Check out my piano blog.
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 778
J
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 778
I've been working my way through Hannah Smith's "Progressive Sight Reading Exercises fo Piano" (thanks to whoever mentioned the book in one of the forums here!) & I think my reading is improving.


Carol
(Started playing July 2008)

[Linked Image]
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 788
L
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 788
I have the same issue and I'm also trying to train myself to follow the score and raise my reading ability. You're right, it's practically involuntary and it's difficult to overcome. Thanks for the helpful responses, all.


"Wide awake, I can make my most fantastic dreams come true..."
- Lorenz Hart
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 861
EJR Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 861
Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Sight reading is a process of memorising one bar then playing it as you are memorising the next. So, all sight reading is memorising - just to a limited extent. Muscle memory is fine if you only want to play for yourself. It'll let you down in front of others though.


KBK,

That was a very thoughtful reply. I've wondered that myself. Do you think you can practice sight reading by reading a bar, then trying to play it from memory, read the next and so forth?

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,337
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,337
Ted,
In my opinion you are doing the right thing by playing material of the Classics to Moderns level repeatedly rather than just once and moving on. I don't think you should worry about unintentionally memorizing or about not following every single note.

I've been playing 3 1/2 years and for about 2 1/2 years I spent half-an-hour a day reading thru material, playing once or twice and moving on. In retrospect, I consider it the least effective use of my learning time. The reason is that I never developed the ability to play musically while reading. I have a large (for my experience) memorized repertoire, but very few pieces I can play while following the score.

What you are doing with the C to Ms, and what I'm now doing with the Schumann Album for the Young and some simple popular music, is much better for a beginner. I now work on each piece enough to play it musically while generally following the score, but not polishing or developing memorization independent of the score.

Doing that has improved my "sight reading" much more than fumbling thru pieces once or twice with little regard for producing anything musical. I suppose if you had an unlimited amount of material starting at a low enough level the "play once" thing might work, but for me even the "easy piano" books were too hard for a clean first play.

I intend to go back to working on prima vista reading once my overall reading is stronger, hopefully in a year or two, but for now I plan to continue doing just what you are doing, while continuing to develop a separate polished/memorized rep as well.



Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,237
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,237
tedhorton,

I am in the exact same boat as you are. For my first couple of pieces that I learned as an adult beginner, I relied strictly on memorization, "measure-by-measure" decoding, and once the piece was learned, muscle memory....

For my latest piece, after reading all of the advice here on ABF, I've changed my approach and "sight-read" each new measure that I try to learn both hands at a time. Yes, it's painfully slow, I know....but, like you, by about the 10th iteration, I've already memorized every note! I'll still glance at the sheet, though. Lately, I've been analyzing chords, chord progressions, and patterns, and I visualize the bars of music in my head (even after the measures have been memorized). In my opinion, just "thinking" about the notes instead of relying purely on muscle memory will ultimately lead to becoming a better sight reader.

I'm also working on easier pieces for myself, and sitting down with my daughters at least 2 hours per week and sight reading their material with them. I guide their practice (I won't say teach 'cause I'm not qualified to teach) so I get the most bang for my buck for their weekly lesson.

Anyway, do not look at your ability to memorize quickly as a curse. I consider it a gift from God, and I'm not sure how I do it. Some pianists can't play anything without the score in front of them, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing either. I actually envy great sight readers and fluent note readers and would like to become one myself.

In the long run, if you don't visualize the score or play with the score in front of you, repertoire maintenance becomes...well...maintenance-intensive. I currently play my learned pieces everyday so I don't forget them...I'm also using the score more often because i forgot lots of notes......but..I don't look at repertoire maintenance as a chore - it's pure joy, pleasure, and stress-relief! It's nice to be able to play your favorite pieces with minimal thinking... laugh


YouTube Channel
Scott Joplin Repertoire


Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach


[Linked Image]
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,237
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,237
Originally Posted by joyoussong
I've been working my way through Hannah Smith's "Progressive Sight Reading Exercises fo Piano" (thanks to whoever mentioned the book in one of the forums here!) & I think my reading is improving.


I joyoussong, thanks for the book reference. I'll have to pick that one up for myself as well. cool


YouTube Channel
Scott Joplin Repertoire


Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach


[Linked Image]
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 44
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 44
Originally Posted by joyoussong
I've been working my way through Hannah Smith's "Progressive Sight Reading Exercises fo Piano" (thanks to whoever mentioned the book in one of the forums here!) & I think my reading is improving.


Is this book still in print? What's the difficulty level?

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 778
J
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 778
I got the book from the library, but I think it's listed on Amazon. It starts out really easy, but the exercises get more difficult. Each exercise is just a line or 2, but most of them are quite melodic. My teacher says it's good for learning to recognize & respond to intervals.


Carol
(Started playing July 2008)

[Linked Image]

Moderated by  Bart K, platuser 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Piano World Has Been Sold!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
(ad)
(ad)
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Estonia 1990
by Iberia - 04/16/24 11:01 AM
Very Cheap Piano?
by Tweedpipe - 04/16/24 10:13 AM
Practical Meaning of SMP
by rneedle - 04/16/24 09:57 AM
Country style lessons
by Stephen_James - 04/16/24 06:04 AM
How Much to Sell For?
by TexasMom1 - 04/15/24 10:23 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics223,390
Posts3,349,223
Members111,632
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010

Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations |

Advertise on Piano World
| Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map


Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All Rights Reserved.
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community.