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#1377455 - 02/18/10 03:37 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Frozenicicles]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Here is another way of framing the question:

Why are there many famous female authors, from Jane Austen to Virginia Woolf, but almost no famous female composers?
-Jason


And here's a slightly off-topic take on this question. So many of the greatest female characters in novels are women, but the authors are men :

Flaubert : Madame Bovary
Tolstoy : Anna Karenina
Richardson : Pamela
Alexandre Dumas : La Dame aux Camelias
Daniel Defoe : Moll Flanders
Nathaniel Hawthorne : The Scarlet Letter
Henry James : Daisy Miller

While no one denies the place in literature of such heroines as Elizabeth Barrett, (Jane Austen) and Jane Eyre, (Charlotte Bronte), are there any great literary male heroes created by women authors? Is Heathcliffe (Wuthering Heights) a viable candidate. Which others?

Why, in literary history, have men writen so successfully about women, but women seem not to have been as successful in writing about men?

Has this changed in more modern times?

Regards,


Two words: Harry Potter. smile
I think that Mr. Darcy and Mr. Rochester were very successful characters also. In what way were they not?

Dorthy Sayers /Lord Peter Wimsey
Beatrix Potter/ Peter Rabbit
George Eliott/ Silas Marner
Margaret Mitchell/ Rhett Butler
Diana Galbadon/Jamie Fraser
Ann Rice/ Lestat
Dorothy Dunnett/Francis Crawford
Mary Shelly/Dr Victor Frankenstein and friend
Harper Lee /Atticus Finch
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#1377492 - 02/18/10 04:43 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Phlebas]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6095
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Read about society during the time of Beethoven, Hummel, Paganini, Schubert, Berlioz, Strauss, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Czerny, Liszt, Alkan, Wagner, Schumann, Brahms, Bizet, Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Debussy, Sibelius,Scriabin
Rachmaninoff, Mahler, Ravel, Haydn, Mozart, Bach....

You'll find your answer there.


thumb
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1377493 - 02/18/10 04:43 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: -Frycek]
cardguy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 977
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Here is another way of framing the question:

Why are there many famous female authors, from Jane Austen to Virginia Woolf, but almost no famous female composers?
-Jason


And here's a slightly off-topic take on this question. So many of the greatest female characters in novels are women, but the authors are men :

Flaubert : Madame Bovary
Tolstoy : Anna Karenina
Richardson : Pamela
Alexandre Dumas : La Dame aux Camelias
Daniel Defoe : Moll Flanders
Nathaniel Hawthorne : The Scarlet Letter
Henry James : Daisy Miller

While no one denies the place in literature of such heroines as Elizabeth Barrett, (Jane Austen) and Jane Eyre, (Charlotte Bronte), are there any great literary male heroes created by women authors? Is Heathcliffe (Wuthering Heights) a viable candidate. Which others?

Why, in literary history, have men writen so successfully about women, but women seem not to have been as successful in writing about men?

Has this changed in more modern times?

Regards,


Two words: Harry Potter. smile
I think that Mr. Darcy and Mr. Rochester were very successful characters also. In what way were they not?

Dorthy Sayers /Lord Peter Wimsey
Beatrix Potter/ Peter Rabbit
George Eliott/ Silas Marner
Margaret Mitchell/ Rhett Butler
Diana Galbadon/Jamie Fraser
Ann Rice/ Lestat
Dorothy Dunnett/Francis Crawford
Mary Shelly/Dr Victor Frankenstein and friend
Harper Lee /Atticus Finch


I'd say in general that the most memorable characters from fiction are women, independently of who's doing the writing. I'm going to venture to say that they're easier to write about with a certain heroic depth. Moreover, the truly interesting fictional male characters seem to have an unmistakeable feminine dimension. Jude Fawley, perhaps Humbert Humbert, Raskolnikov,Holden Caulfield, Gatsby..

Of course there are many more...


Edited by cardguy (02/18/10 05:05 PM)

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#1377496 - 02/18/10 04:44 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: -Frycek]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17835
Loc: Victoria, BC
Thanks for the input, folks.

If pressed, however, I could not put Harry Potter,[1] Peter Rabbit, Peter Wimsey, or Vampire Lestat on the same plane as such female characters as Emma Bovary, Anna Karenina, Manon Lescaut and Marguerite Gauthier as far as depth of character and character analysis are concerned.

As for the others such as Rhett Butler, Mr. Darcy and Mr. Rochester, while pivotal to the action of the plots in which they are set, each was not the central character, - that being a woman in each case - and I was looking for male heroes of novels written by women.

However, not to derail this further, I'll let everyone else get back to the topic at hand.

[1] Hence, the smiley face, perhaps?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1377497 - 02/18/10 04:45 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Frozenicicles]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6095
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
Because historically, education was preferentially given to boys and women had to go under pseudonyms to get anything published. I believe that Mendelssohn had some of his sister's music published under his name. Clara Schumann is quite a well-known composer. If you go back even further, there's Hildegard of Bingen. I'm sure others can provide more examples as well.


I just bought Clara Schumann's Kadenzen yesterday.

About pseudonyms... George Eliot (although not a composer) was a woman for example. She had to publish under a male's name to get published at all....
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#1377501 - 02/18/10 04:49 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: BruceD]
cardguy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 977
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Thanks for the input, folks.

If pressed, however, I could not put Harry Potter,[1] Peter Rabbit, Peter Wimsey, or Vampire Lestat on the same plane as such female characters as Emma Bovary, Anna Karenina, Manon Lescaut and Marguerite Gauthier as far as depth of character and character analysis are concerned.

As for the others such as Rhett Butler, Mr. Darcy and Mr. Rochester, while pivotal to the action of the plots in which they are set, each was not the central character, - that being a woman in each case - and I was looking for male heroes of novels written by women.

However, not to derail this further, I'll let everyone else get back to the topic at hand.

[1] Hence, the smiley face, perhaps?

Regards,


Maybe check out my response just above yours if you missed it? Nothing great, but I think there's more food for thought along the lines you introduce..

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#1377502 - 02/18/10 04:49 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: cardguy]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17835
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: cardguy
[...]
I'd say in general that the most memorable characters from fiction are women, independently of who's doing the writing. I'm going to venture to say that they're easier to write about with a certain heroic depth.


Good point! Thanks for that.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1377507 - 02/18/10 04:58 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: BruceD]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6095
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Gina Losasso wrote this article ...
I know her, I am in one of her societies, she is very smart and a chess champion...
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1377520 - 02/18/10 05:15 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: BruceD]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Thanks for the input, folks.

If pressed, however, I could not put Harry Potter,[1] Peter Rabbit, Peter Wimsey, or Vampire Lestat on the same plane as such female characters as Emma Bovary, Anna Karenina, Manon Lescaut and Marguerite Gauthier as far as depth of character and character analysis are concerned.

As for the others such as Rhett Butler, Mr. Darcy and Mr. Rochester, while pivotal to the action of the plots in which they are set, each was not the central character, - that being a woman in each case - and I was looking for male heroes of novels written by women.

However, not to derail this further, I'll let everyone else get back to the topic at hand.

[1] Hence, the smiley face, perhaps?

Regards,


No, my dear Bruce, but they're a good deal more entertaining (with the possible exception of Peter Rabbit) from the feminine point of view. wink I would think the inclusion of Peter Rabbit might've tipped you off that my tongue was somewhere in the general vicinity of my cheek.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#1377536 - 02/18/10 05:46 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: -Frycek]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Well, let's go from the other angle: why are there so many famous male German composers?

And did you know that Vivaldi was almost unheard of before vinyl records became commonplace? And that Mozart was hardly played for some decades in the first half of the 20th century?

There is some interesting study regarding the career structure of composers, and that could provide a certain insight, but reading the way the discussion is going it seems to be that the question was intended to be: why was there not a famous 19th century female composer?

Here in Australia some of the most famous and commissioned composers are women - but at the moment there is a big debate going on regarding why one of the leading theatre companies very rarely employs female directors or stages plays by female playwrights. Getting the job in the first place is an important part of how you get to be famous.... Meantime, there are no shortage of famous artists who are female.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1377537 - 02/18/10 05:46 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Also, famous and most-played are not necessarily synonymous....
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1377552 - 02/18/10 06:06 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Elissa Milne]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6095
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
This is from the Wikipedia about the Vienna Philharmonic:

Acceptance of women

Although the orchestra is widely acknowledged as one of the world's finest, in the 1990s it came in for some criticism by feminist groups because until 1997 it did not allow women to become full members of the orchestra (although some women performed with the orchestra, they were not full members). In 1997 the first woman, harpist Anna Lelkes, became a member after having performed with the orchestra as a "non-member" for over twenty years. After Lelkes' retirement, another woman harpist Charlotte Balzereit eventually replaced her as the orchestra's only female member at the time.[8] Currently, the orchestra has three female members: Ursula Plaichinger (viola), the first non-harpist female member[9], Isabelle Ballot Caillieret (first violin)[10], and Balzereit.[11] Four other women, Albena Danailova, Daniela Ivanova, Olesya Kurylak, and Ursula Wex are confirmed members of the Vienna State Opera orchestra, but do "not yet belong to the association of the Vienna Philharmonic."[12]

The first woman to conduct the orchestra was Australian conductor Simone Young in January 2005.

The traditional attitude of the orchestra was expressed by Paul Fürst in the 1987 documentary A Woman Is a Risky Bet: Six Orchestra Conductors directed by Christina Olofson:

"There is no ban on women musicians playing here but the Vienna Philharmonic is by tradition an all-male orchestra. Our profession makes family life extremely difficult, so for a woman it’s almost impossible. There are so many orchestras with women members so why shouldn’t there be – for how long I don’t know – an orchestra with no women in it … A woman shouldn’t play like a man but like a woman, but an all-male orchestra is bound to have a special tone." [13]

In addition there were claims that the orchestra in the past had not accepted members who were visibly members of ethnic minorities.[citation needed] In 2001 a violinist who was half-Asian became a member.[14]

Some people[who?] associated with the organisation have been criticised for saying that it is important to maintain the ethnic uniformity of the orchestra (i.e., white Europeans) in order to maintain high playing standards.[citation needed]

In 1970 Otto Strasser, the former chairman of the Vienna Philharmonic, wrote in his memoirs:

"I hold it incorrect that today the applicants play behind a screen; an arrangement that was brought in after the Second World War in order to assure objective judgments. I continuously fought against it, especially after I became Chairman of the Philharmonic, because I am convinced that to the artist also belongs the person, that one must not only hear, but also see, in order to judge him in his entire personality. [...] Even a grotesque situation that played itself out after my retirement was not able to change the situation. An applicant qualified himself as the best, and as the screen was raised, there stood a Japanese before the stunned jury. He was, however, not engaged, because his face did not fit with the ‘Pizzicato-Polka’ of the New Year's Concert."[14]

The first flautist in the Vienna Philharmonic said in a radio interview broadcast in 1996:

"From the beginning we have spoken of the special Viennese qualities, of the way music is made here. The way we make music here is not only a technical ability, but also something that has a lot to do with the soul. The soul does not let itself be separated from the cultural roots that we have here in central Europe. And it also doesn't allow itself to be separated from gender. So if one thinks that the world should function by quota regulations, then it is naturally irritating that we are a group of white skinned male musicians, that perform exclusively the music of white skinned male composers. It is a racist and sexist irritation. I believe one must put it that way. If one establishes superficial egalitarianism, one will lose something very significant. Therefore, I am convinced that it is worthwhile to accept this racist and sexist irritation, because something produced by a superficial understanding of human rights would not have the same standards."[15]

In 2003, an orchestra member said in a magazine interview:

"Three women are already too many. By the time we have twenty percent, the orchestra will be ruined. We have made a big mistake, and will bitterly regret it."[16]

mad
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1377555 - 02/18/10 06:13 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: ChopinAddict]
John_B Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/10
Posts: 621
Loc: Bristol, UK
Interestingly, when the VPO is on tour to London there are usually a lot more women playing (though still no where near the numbers in equivalent orchestras).

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#1377564 - 02/18/10 06:25 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: BruceD]
Mary-Rose Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/16/06
Posts: 1428
Loc: Essex, England
Originally Posted By: BruceD


As for the others such as Rhett Butler, Mr. Darcy and Mr. Rochester, while pivotal to the action of the plots in which they are set, each was not the central character, - that being a woman in each case - and I was looking for male heroes of novels written by women.



Off the top of my head, what about:

Adam Bede, Silas Marner, Daniel Deronda and others from George Eliot's pen? Aphra Behn's 'Orinooko'; Mary Shelley's 'Perkin Warbeck'; 'Orlando' and 'Jacob's Room' by Virinia Woolf; 'Cheri' by Collette etc etc.

To go back to the original question, I suggest y'all read an excellent book called 'The Weaker Vessel' by Antonia Fraser, who details the incalculable effect childbearing had on women right until the mid-C20th when at last contraception became widely available.

Women composers who have emerged since then have still to be evaluated. One of my favourites is Judith Weir, who has written some absolutely gorgeous operas.
_________________________
Best wishes from MR
http://www.extraloudpurrs.blogspot.com

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#1377582 - 02/18/10 06:57 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Mary-Rose]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13763
Loc: Iowa City, IA
By the way, does anybody else find it odd that Hummel and Alkan made the OP's list of famous composers, and that no Italian opera composers are included (Monteverdi, Rossini, Verdi, Puccini.)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1377598 - 02/18/10 07:21 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Kreisler]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3713
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
By the way, does anybody else find it odd that Hummel and Alkan made the OP's list of famous composers, and that no Italian opera composers are included (Monteverdi, Rossini, Verdi, Puccini.)


Well, this is a piano forum. Even though the topic didn't specify piano composers, and even though Mahler and Wagner were in the list, this still could have influenced the list's formulation.


-Jason
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#1377605 - 02/18/10 07:31 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Kreisler]
cast12 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 219
Does anyone here actually think that if women in the 1700's and 1800's had the same rights as men, there would have been female composers comparable to Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart?

I'm doubtful. There's ample evidence that men are significantly better at math and spacial reasoning than are women. Since these abilities are strongly tied to music, I think it's safe to say that men are, on average, more musically talented than women. It's also worth noting that men tend to focus intensely on a few issues for years at a time, while women tend to multitask, so I doubt that many women would have had the drive of such composers as Liszt and Bach.

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#1377614 - 02/18/10 07:55 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: beet31425]
gooddog Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4777
Loc: Seattle area, WA
It is overwhelming to think about all the music, art, science, medicine and literature that was created and lost because people did not have the resources or freedom to bring them into the light. Don't limit your thinking to just European women. Great works were also created by the poor, the middle classes and people of varying religions, nationalities and races and sadly most of it has been lost. The art, music and literature that did survive did so primarly because a few were fortunate enough to find wealthy patrons.

It is staggering to think about what has been lost from the civilizations of China, Arabia, Egypt, India and Africa. Think about the destruction of the Library at Alexandria!

We can bemoan the past or we can rejoice in what we have. Hopefully, the future will nurture the fruits of all.
_________________________
Best regards,

Deborah

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#1377629 - 02/18/10 08:17 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Nikolas]
Seabelle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 123
Loc: Melbourne
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
BTW, can we put down numbers on how many Greek composers are famous? In all 10 millions of people, the percentage is far from even decent. It's awful. I guess this must mean that Greeks are also different than the rest of the world as far as I intelligence is concerned, right? :P


Perhaps not, but modern music as we know it probably wouldn't exist without the Pythagoreans. Furthermore, bring forth the Tsitsanis! I wonder if you could write piano arrangements of bouzouki music...

As far as female composers are concerned, I'm not sure I find that IQ argument very convincing. Marilyn vos Savant probably has a far higher IQ (by 21st Century standards) that say... Bach, who would have been educated to a very modest standard by both our standards and contemporary standards of those living in more affluent areas such as The Dutch Republic.

I also don't think statistics are of much benefit to this discussion, considering it's about fame, rather than quality. Rhianna is probably more famous than Chopin, even. What do you make of that?
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Two shadas at noon.

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#1377635 - 02/18/10 08:23 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Seabelle]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13763
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Here's an excellent Greek composer. (Well, okay, he's from Cyprus, but it's close!)

http://www.tsitsaros.com/
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1377661 - 02/18/10 09:39 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: gooddog]
cardguy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 977
Originally Posted By: gooddog
It is overwhelming to think about all the music, art, science, medicine and literature that was created and lost because people did not have the resources or freedom to bring them into the light. Don't limit your thinking to just European women. Great works were also created by the poor, the middle classes and people of varying religions, nationalities and races and sadly most of it has been lost. The art, music and literature that did survive did so primarly because a few were fortunate enough to find wealthy patrons.

It is staggering to think about what has been lost from the civilizations of China, Arabia, Egypt, India and Africa. Think about the destruction of the Library at Alexandria!

We can bemoan the past or we can rejoice in what we have. Hopefully, the future will nurture the fruits of all.


Deborah,

This is all nicely expressed. To take it a step further, doubtless there will come a time when much of what we possess today will be gone. We tend to think of Mozart and Beethoven et al as eternal, but all things pass from this earth.

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#1377676 - 02/18/10 10:03 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: cast12]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: cast12
Does anyone here actually think that if women in the 1700's and 1800's had the same rights as men, there would have been female composers comparable to Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart?

I'm doubtful. There's ample evidence that men are significantly better at math and spacial reasoning than are women. Since these abilities are strongly tied to music, I think it's safe to say that men are, on average, more musically talented than women. It's also worth noting that men tend to focus intensely on a few issues for years at a time, while women tend to multitask, so I doubt that many women would have had the drive of such composers as Liszt and Bach.

Too bad that drive isn't doing the guys today any good, eh? http://www.macleans.ca/education/universities/article.jsp?content=20070920_142820_8780

Deborah, I agree with you 100%. Our task should be to change the prejudices that still inhibit women today (and which are still present, if you've read this thread) rather than to speculate about the past.

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#1377679 - 02/18/10 10:07 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: cardguy]
1RC Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 497
Loc: Alberta
I sometimes wonder how much women inspire the work that the men do. I've been exploring poetry lately, and a lot of these poems were directly inspired by some lady who the poet fancied... Beethoven seemed to dedicate a lot of his works to women. There's one girl I know, who doesn't like classical music and would probably think it pretty strange, but the idea of playing for her can fuel my practice for days. (Freud must have some bizarre theory for this sort of thing)

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#1377689 - 02/18/10 10:21 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: cast12]
gooddog Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4777
Loc: Seattle area, WA
Originally Posted By: cast12
Does anyone here actually think that if women in the 1700's and 1800's had the same rights as men, there would have been female composers comparable to Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart?

I'm doubtful. There's ample evidence that men are significantly better at math and spacial reasoning than are women. Since these abilities are strongly tied to music, I think it's safe to say that men are, on average, more musically talented than women. It's also worth noting that men tend to focus intensely on a few issues for years at a time, while women tend to multitask, so I doubt that many women would have had the drive of such composers as Liszt and Bach.


_________________________
Best regards,

Deborah

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#1377695 - 02/18/10 10:31 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: cast12]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: cast12
Does anyone here actually think that if women in the 1700's and 1800's had the same rights as men, there would have been female composers comparable to Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart?

I'm doubtful. There's ample evidence that men are significantly better at math and spacial reasoning than are women. Since these abilities are strongly tied to music, I think it's safe to say that men are, on average, more musically talented than women. It's also worth noting that men tend to focus intensely on a few issues for years at a time, while women tend to multitask, so I doubt that many women would have had the drive of such composers as Liszt and Bach.

Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History? That's why.
_________________________
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#1377698 - 02/18/10 10:35 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: cast12]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: cast12
Does anyone here actually think that if women in the 1700's and 1800's had the same rights as men, there would have been female composers comparable to Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart?

I'm doubtful. There's ample evidence that men are significantly better at math and spacial reasoning than are women. Since these abilities are strongly tied to music, I think it's safe to say that men are, on average, more musically talented than women. It's also worth noting that men tend to focus intensely on a few issues for years at a time, while women tend to multitask, so I doubt that many women would have had the drive of such composers as Liszt and Bach.


I actually think that women write music that is just as fantastic as the music written by men.

And I'm fascinated by the idea that high IQ is correlative with musical creativity: anecdotally I can think of examples that support the pro and the con of that argument.... But if musical creativity and high IQ are not proven to be causally linked then what is the point of raising IQ as an issue in this discussion?

btw, in Australia girls have been outperforming boys in the high school leaving exams for some number of years..... not sure how that anecdote fits into the scheme of things?


Edited by Elissa Milne (02/18/10 10:37 PM)
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1377712 - 02/18/10 11:03 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Elissa Milne]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1474
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
[quote=cast12]

btw, in Australia girls have been outperforming boys in the high school leaving exams for some number of years..... not sure how that anecdote fits into the scheme of things?


I believe you that in general girls will outperform boys in high school exam.Boys, in general, are not as serious and diligent as girls when come to study, but when we compare diligent boys to diligent girls, the statistic will be different. Boys will out perform girls.

Now the same in writing music, top composers are men as we have witnessed for centuries. Basically, when comes to the highest level of any activities, men ,in general, will out perform women.

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#1377717 - 02/18/10 11:07 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
gooddog Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4777
Loc: Seattle area, WA
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
[quote=cast12]

btw, in Australia girls have been outperforming boys in the high school leaving exams for some number of years..... not sure how that anecdote fits into the scheme of things?


I believe you that in general girls will outperform boys in high school exam.Boys, in general, are not as serious and diligent as girls when come to study, but when we compare diligent boys to diligent girls, the statistic will be different. Boys will out perform girls.

Now the same in writing music, top composers are men as we have witnessed for centuries. Basically, when comes to the highest level of any activities, men ,in general, will out perform women.

Oink. Oink. Now is one of those(many)times I miss Steven's acerbic wit.
_________________________
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Deborah

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#1377718 - 02/18/10 11:09 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Now the same in writing music, top composers are men as we have witnessed for centuries. Basically, when comes to the highest level of any activities, men ,in general, will out perform women.

Wow. I now understand why some people are driven to extreme feminism. Now, imagine looking your own mother in the eyes and telling her that.

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#1377739 - 02/18/10 11:41 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
[quote=cast12]

btw, in Australia girls have been outperforming boys in the high school leaving exams for some number of years..... not sure how that anecdote fits into the scheme of things?


I believe you that in general girls will outperform boys in high school exam.Boys, in general, are not as serious and diligent as girls when come to study, but when we compare diligent boys to diligent girls, the statistic will be different. Boys will out perform girls.

Now the same in writing music, top composers are men as we have witnessed for centuries. Basically, when comes to the highest level of any activities, men ,in general, will out perform women.



Ah, no, the diligent girls outperform the diligent boys. The girls are topping the classes, there are more of them in the top cohort, any which way you look at it girls are performing stronger than their numbers would justify - and there have been some inquiries into the education of boys to find out what's going wrong with the kids with the Y chromosome.

Meantime, let's just clarify: you are saying that the achievements of females should be discounted because they are naturally more diligent?

lmao
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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