Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner - Non Classical Jazz Improve, does playing classical help?

Diane, in fairness to Beeboss, he is the exact opposite of nasty. And he is extremely helpful to everyone learning jazz. So I value his opinion. He is indeed lucky because his Classical teachers did a more free form structure.

But your experience is just the usual route for most Classical teachers. There's a fixed curriculum and the goal is sight reading Classical pieces (as well as technique in general of course). And it is tied to this "RCM Grading" thing. Long ago, I only associated these grades as being a UK or Canada thing. Now, many teachers here in my area are following this same rigid structure. The goal becomes to get to the next higher grade.

+1

Well I started Classical piano lessons at 8 years old, at a local music school (Hochstein School of Music here in Rochester NY), after my piano lesson, we had Music theory, and music appreciation classes. During those music theory classes we covered chord voicings, figured bass, harmony, etc. Then after playing about 6 years I switched to Jazz as my main focus. I've played piano for several big bands, including the local Army Reserve Band that I've been retired from for years. Now after playing piano for about 40 years, I'm finding myself interested again in Classical stylings, and I'm finding the focus on classical technique has definitely help my jazz playing. I do know many classical players who didn't get much in the way of formal theory training, and didn't know much about harmony. I really didn't mean to start a huge debate here, My question was merely for those of you that already play jazz, have any of you gone back to Classical, or started learning classical for the first time, and did it have a positive impact on your jazz playing? I'm not referring here to entry level classical, but things along the difficulty level of the Bach inventions, or the Well Tempered Clavier, or more difficult music by other composers.

Good grief! If that's the thinking here, I'm done!!!
Going, going, poof, gone!!

In Australian (AMEB) theory syllabus (the newest one) has students at grade one level writing simple V - I progressions, beginning to transcribe melody, and finding motives and variations in a melody (contemporary or classical). And just to be clear that it really is grade one, students also have to name notes and identify "skips and steps".

Early in grade 2 students learn chord ii and IV, begin to write chords in open or closed voicing, learn about consonance and dissonance and then learn to write every major and minor triad in root position but with varied voicings... then write inversions, figured bass numbers... ok that's enough and i only got half way through grade 2

That's just a little bit of detail but I think it gives an idea of how "classical" theory syllabus has changed - at least in this country. And I'm pretty sure that jazz has been a big influence in these changes. So thank goodness students can get stuck into useful, real theory early on.

Back on topic
At the tertiary music school here it is pretty standard practice for jazz piano students to try and get some lessons with a classical teacher for technique/touch, because classical teachers specialise in teaching it. Classical students were always hopeful and encouraging that their jazz friends would be able to get a classical teacher to help them (difficult because they were so busy teaching the classical pianists). There was no better or worse, the best classical players and the best jazz players were both were considered highly skilled, admired. And there were quite a few bands that had members from both sides of this great divide. A divide that I discover on PW.

Learning classical music can be helpful, But I think at one point you kind of have to specialize in one or the other because of time constraints. Learning an Oscar Peterson solo can be just as time consuming as learning a chopin ballde, and it may not be realistic to work on both at the same time.

When I started practicing again after my injury, I played a lot of classical music.. I re-learned all the Bach inventions and some of the prelude. But right now, between learning poly-rhythm, odd meter, new voicings, playing/transcribing chick corea solos by ear, I just don't have time to work on classical music. Learning jazz requires a full time effort and I feel like I am spreading myself too thin if I pick up a new classical piece.

According to recent "scholarship" (read:sarcasm) that I've read, classical music hinders, rather than helps. The required technique gets in the way, because there's too much thought involved. The necessary hours of practice with no concrete results also stand contrarily to the fruition of one's goals. Not only that, classical music, is the product of dead composers (apparently making it passe).

Note: As stated, this is according to things I've recently read, and, in no way represents my thoughts/beliefs/opinions.

Many jazz composers are dead too Maybe we can call ourselves Classical music now... Or do we have to wait a century?

I guess my question is how far/at one point do you need to specialize on one or the other? People like Kenny Kirkland and Alan Broadbent made a living as classical pianists before they became established in the jazz scene.. but I don't know if they were actually doing recital in the proffessional circuit.

On the other hand you have people like Kenny Werner who flunked his first year at classical conservatory..or George Shearing who switched to jazz in his teens because classical music was too boring for him.. When I saw interviews of Oscar Peterson, he did learn classical music, but apparently he did it mostly by ear, and he didn't have the kind of formal training you get at a conservatory level.

I know that most of these guys can probably play chopin etudes, but I don't know if they will be able to play them well enough to pass a graduate recital. I know for sure that my teachers can't even though they are very accomplished players.. their chops aren't that good/clean enough to play them at an acceptable performance level

""According to recent "scholarship" (read:sarcasm) that I've read, classical music hinders, rather than helps. The required technique gets in the way, because there's too much thought involved. The necessary hours of practice with no concrete results also stand contrarily to the fruition of one's goals. Not only that, classical music, is the product of dead composers (apparently making it passe). ""

So much for the dead jazz artists - anybody want all my Bill Evans material? You know reading about music is a lot like dancing about architecture. [insert toungue-in-cheek smiley icon here] The last book I read about jazz was the one on the making of Kind of Blue. I don't know what it is about jazz journalism, but I never can get through those books. I couldn't finish it. I think music journalists/critics are more interested in the culture [classical, jazz, rock, folk, whatever] than the music itself. It's like asking a non-alcoholic about what it's like to be alcoholic...well, that's probably an unfortunate metaphor...anyway I just can't get through that stuff. The other thing is I like the "necessary hours" themselves! Just the act of practicing is a result. I think about it when I practice, I do not know about y'all. Practice without thought is a waste of time. Practice is itself. I like to practice; it helps everything. And what's "concrete results"? - learning the piece, or what? do you ever really learn them? What a maroon...[not the poster who's quote I discussed, just the scholarship he referenced!]

I play jazz sax and have been learning piano as a 2nd instrument. When I asked my sax teacher to recommend a piano teacher he recommended a classical teacher, which suprised me, but he thought she would be good for developing time, touch and technique. Now after 2 years I'm thinking about spending more time on jazz.

I agree with jazzwee that classical seems to be heavy on triads. I just got a classical scale book and all the chords and arpeggios are triads, except for dominant and diminished 7ths. The chords in all the pieces I've played and in my warmups are all triads. So for me when switching to jazz that would be one major difference, practising sevenths instead of triads.

Other things I would have to add are commonly occuring jazz progressions like ii-V-I, diminished scale, whole tone scale, developing a library of voicings (one-handed, rootless, two-handed), learning comping, and patterns for getting some facility in improvising.

So even though I have some classical technique, and am a jazz musician, I feel like a beginner when it comes to trying to improvise on piano.


Etcetra, what do you do for practising technique? It's common for jazz musicians to use classical pieces for technique. That's one way to keep some classical in your routine.

Ken,

Nowdays I learn/transcribe people's solos for technique. Basically I listen to a solos over and over again until I can play it along with the record note-by-note, without writing any of it down on paper.

right now I am working on

Chick Corea's solos on Matrix, Light as A feather
Mulgrew Miller's solo on "thinking out loud"

The process of learning these solos is a lot like learning classical pieces.. you isolate passages, work them at a slow tempo until it's comfortable and you move up in tempo. I use amazing slow downer and I guess I am able to play the solos at about 85% of the actual tempo. I also take ideas from what I transcribe and make exercise out of them, learning them in all keys.

What I don't get about the whole 'learning classical for technique" idea is that it makes it sound as if practicing jazz stuff doesn't help with your technique.. I know a sax player who learned the entire Charlie Parker omnibook in all keys at 300bpm.. he got his chops from doing that and spent little or no time on classical pieces. I guess my question is if you are practicing correctly, does it really matter if you are practicing classical or jazz?

After all if I am learning classical music, I'd like to do it for the music, nor for it's technical benefits..

I bet that guys sounds a lot like Bird now

The thing I heard about Bird, is that besides being obsessed with practicing, he was obsessed with listening to all kinds of music. There are stories that he would often stop by a listen to street performers of all genres, sometimes for an extended period of time. He apparently had great love for music, from classical to bluegrass.

I guess that's probably what made him one of the best improviser ever, not just technically, but also in the melodies he was able to compose on the spot.

Still, you have learned classical at one point, so perhaps there's benefits from it that you don't notice while working on transcriptions but still is helpful to you.

By George I think he's got it!

KlinkKlink

Btw I did spend some time working on classical music, and I do agree about its benefits. I actually want to find a classical teacher but at the same time I am not sure if I can commit 2 hrs a day on a classical piece when I have so much to work on classically.

What I like about learning solos by ear is the fact that it really forces you to listen to the solos you are learning. You really have to learn the solo inside out to be able to play them.. so it works your tonal memory, your connection between your ear and your hands..etc. If the goal for every improviser is to be able to play what we hear, then I think this is the best way to be able to do that.

knotty

yea, listening is important esp. nowdays. I don't know any musicians my age that listens to just jazz. I was fortunate enough to have friends who has very different musical backgrounds.. so they got me into listening Parliment Stevie wonder.. house music.. etc. What I like about the younger players is the fact that they aren't afraid to let those thing come out in their playing/composing

btw the guy who learned the omnibook in all key won like a big jazz competition.. so i guess it worked for him

Hi,
I didn't work on classical at all when I was learning to improvise. I listened to famous jazz horn players and learned their solos note for note and put chords in the left hand. Worked for me.

Rob Mullin's

Thanks!! glad to know that I am not the only one working stuff that way. I have friends that studied with Jeff Clayton, and it seems like they all studied jazz that way, just learning solos after solos.. they literally learned albums worth of stuff on their instrument.

btw I saw you play a long time ago when I was still living in LA area..It was great listening to your band, you guys all sounded great!!

I think that at the end it's only about the sound you get out of your instrument and the musical atmosphere you create with it. And if you, whatever music you play, need for a particular effect a simple triad or a plain octave I think that you don't have much choice here, don't you? The same goes of course for any thicker textures, may it be an extended chord, polychord, random cluster, prepared piano sound, whatever. At the end music tells you what she needs. Sorry for the copy-paste but regarding this interesting discussion I will leave Brad Mehldau speak. Here is his lucid insight (taken from the essay when he talks about Brahms's influence on him):

That duality is what I love about Brahms, so it might pop out in an improvisation or a composition of mine. One of the great aspects of jazz for me is the way you get influenced. First, you’re a fan. You get the goose bumps; you become bewitched by the music. If that process doesn’t take place, then whatever music – be it Brahms, Jelly Roll Morton or klezmer – won’t find its way into your vocabulary for very long, unless you’re on some weird mission to play music you don’t dig. Anything is fodder. With a kind of Pavlovian logic, what comes out of your horn will be your own happy bastardization of what you love the most – whatever music seduced you initially. "Should I study classical music?" is the wrong question for an improviser. If you don’t dig it, it won't do anything for you.

My teacher constantly emphasizes chords. She started me on some improvisation recently, and the jazz has improved my classical.