Finally made it to the local piano shop and lo and behold they had an AvantGrand sitting there so I tried it out and then "forced" my daughter and wife to give it a go. We didn't have much time to "play" as the store was closing so any comments are based on a rather limited amount of time.

Impressions of the action were very positive, far more "acoustic" feeling than our 407. This would go a long way to curbing the "no more than 20% of practice time on the digital" "rule". That is if not for ...

I was highly uninspired by the sound of the instrument. Maybe I've gotten too used to the slightly "brighter" sound of a Yammie but something about the overall sound of it just wasn't quite right. It was almost "muffled" sounding. What's interesting is that it wasn't very noticeable trying individual keys or chords, but when actually playing a piece (Clair de Lune, Beethoven Rondo, Clementi Rondo, Bach) I kept looking for the whatever it was covering up the speakers (there wasn't anything ). I tried tweaking the controls but nothing really seemed to help. The sales person, while eager was not familiar with the instrument so that was no help. I was pretty disappointed. It wasn't very noisy in the shop since it was close to closing time (other than my son playing some Bach using gun samples on another CVP) so I that didn't factor into it.

Aesthetically I was also not inspired. I guess since we already have an acoustic grand, I look at a digital through primarily practical eyes and losing the space due to the "preemie" grand shape didn't sit well with me. If I were looking to purchase right now I'd be looking way more seriously at an N2.

As a side note, they also had a 20 something year old S&S L on the floor. The action was poor (sluggish), the hammers all varied greatly in height (though they were in very little used condition, you couldn't even see the groves in many of them) and the pedals were wonky. On top of that the sound was typical of a not very well maintained S&S. As much as I disliked the sound of the N3, if someone stuck a gun to my head and told me I had to buy one of the two and use it as is, I wouldn't hesitate and get the N3 (though I know that the L would likely have far more upside once you put a good tech on it). Didn't help that it was priced about $10K more than the N3.

There's really not much adjustment to make on the Avant-Grand for the sounds, except the reverb setting and the TRS (vibration) setting. And it's not like you can stumble upon another sound different than the main sound by mistake because upon a power off/on cycle, everything reverts back to the default settings with the main sound as far as I know.

As for the muffled sound, it's the first time I hear somebody have this impression, and I can't think of any reason why it'd be muffled if you already have the lid open. I think it must be just personal taste. But boy, if you think it's muffled, maybe your Yammie is too bright. When I was comparing N3 at the store to a few other acoustic grand Yammies, those acoustic Yammies were definitely a bit brighter than the N3. Too bright for my taste, actually. Even the N3 sounds a little bright for me, but not overly bright. So I think it's all in individual taste.

As for the look, it's something that people either love or hate. But size wise, I think it's appropriate and practical to keep it compact to just 4 feet long instead of making it any longer than it needs to be.

I have to agree with Volusiano...the AG N3 I had was hardly muffled...it had that bright and rich characteristic Yamaha sound that I really have come to appreciate.

I also thought the look was pretty cool, sort of a mixture of old school and contemporary.

It sure got lots of compliments while it was in my music room.

Snazzy

Bit,

Interesting report.

Do you play the 407 mainly through headphones?

I ask because I'm wondering if you're subconsciously comparing the N3 with your Bosie instead of with the 407's speaker output.

Another question.

What did you think of the sustain on the N3?

As I said, this "muffled" sound caught me off guard. There was a Yammie acoustic grand right next to the N3 and I went back and forth trying out different things and the acoustic was definitely "brighter" across the board. Perhaps "clearer" is a better adjective since it was across the entire scale. It just plain sounded muffled, vs simply "less bright" in the treble.

snazzy, in regards to it's looks, like I said, for me it was simply a practical consideration. Taken by itself, it is a nice looking little unit. I just don't need another "object shaped like a piano" (vs. the negative connotations of calling something a "PSO").

turandot there is no "subconcious" to it, the Bosie is what I hear every day so I compare pretty much everything to it. And I hear the 407 almost exclusively from it's speakers, only occasionally through headphones.

The sustain was a bit disappointing in quality. There was obviously some sampling artifacts after a second or so (audible "pulsing"). It was quite obvious to tell with the acoustic right next to it. Also, during the "tempo rubato" part of Clair de Lune (where the bass note is played and then held) the sound to me was "unconvincing", i.e. it lacked the richness I've come to expect, it sounded a bit confused and muddled (perhaps due to the sampling artifact mentioned above). Now this could be a side effect of a player who's become accustomed to getting a certain sound out of a certain instrument, and perhaps more time with the N3 could yield a cleaner sound, but as is it just didn't sound all that great.

Have you realized how disrespectful and unconsidered you are?

First of all you let your son do whatever he pleases in the store while perhaps another salesperson is trying to make a sale to a real prospect. Besides the disrespect to the “eager salesperson” who probably is trying to talk over the noise made by your son at the other piano.

I’ll guarantee you that the owner of that shop doesn’t consider those Clavinovas toys laying around to entertain the son of an unconsidered father who can’t be a parent and ask his children to remain quite or calm while his trying the piano and doing business (which I doubt) with another person.

You went to the store last minute without any real intention but only to satisfy your curiosity. On top of that you come here and give them a lousy review.

I talked from my own day to day experience. You should be ashamed.

Many consumers misunderstand the meaning of good customer service or friendly environment with “allow me to disrespect your salespeople and other customers in the store with my lack of commonsense”

I have to agree anyone abusing instruments in a music store, when potential paying customers (like me) are desperately trying to assess the instrument, having driven a considerable distance is VERY frustrating. I often wonder why no consideration is given to requiring the use of headphones when such "experimentation" is being done. After all, the use of headphones, earphones, earbuds (whatever) for many other musical activities seems to be commonplace in society.

I imagine the "muffled" sound would catch you off guard as you no doubt know Yammies, including the digitals, are characteristically bright AND and clean. You are also the first person to say it was "muffled".

I've since sold mine (while they were still hard to get) to an enthusiastic and very perceptive pro classical player, who I never figured would have bought one...we had him play it blindfolded...it took him about 15 minutes to realize he was hearing a digital, but in the process he had both an epiphany and a conversion.

He's still enjoying it thoroughly.

I sold it because I wanted more internal patches than acoustic and electric pianos; I really liked the acoustic piano patches, and comparing the sustain to my Steinway, it was a tad less rich, but not enough to sway me.

I'm now considering the Roland RD with the Supernatural upgrade, the new Yamaha CP-5, and, of course, the next generation Avant Grand (N4?) which will hopefully be based on the new CP-series technology (and have at least a string ensemble patch).


It is wise to compare units side by side, or compared to a standard we are used to, but I also like to take some time to get the sounds out of my head, and then listen solely to the piano I am interested in.

What are your other prospects regarding a digital? I played the CVP-407...it was okay, but I must say, the Avant Grand took the sound to a much higher level for me, and the added tactile response in the latter was what sold me on it.

Of course, sound and touch (and looks, as well) are very subjective and personal, and one person's poodle is another individual's coyote.

Luckily we have many choices available.

Snazzy

This is what I love about the internet, take two sentences and then extrapolate into whatever ones mind desires. Disrespectful and unconsidered, hmmmm. Kurtman, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that I just pushed one of your buttons unintentionally (despite you not affording me the same courtesy). Here are some more facts so you can better "judge" me by. If you still consider me and my brood "disrespectful and unconsidered" then so be it.



Actually no, he was sitting over at another CVP playing some Bach while exploring some of the other voices. It would be difficult indeed to suss out subtle differences in an instrument like the N3 if my son were making that much noise. There was no one else looking at pianos, if there were, then we would gladly, as we've done in the past, have him use a pair of headphones. Plus, it wasn't like he was simply banging keys, he was exploring voices (and at the time discovered the "gun" voice) while playing Bach. Again, taking a single sentence and then suddenly extrapolating it to match your view of the events. My kids have been taught to respect the instrument, but to enjoy and not be afraid of it.



Actually we know the owners of the shop, and they have been nothing but courteous and very encouraging of my entire family trying out whatever instrument that we like. We don't know them personally, we've just come to know them in the many years that we've been frequenting his shop(s).



Uh no. We were there to purchase some sheet music. We almost exclusively purchase all our sheet music locally. In all the years that we've been purchasing sheet music we have used an online source exactly twice, because they were able to deliver the music in a more timely fashion than anyone locally (competitions and festivals demand that you have an original copy and inevitably ours get all marked up so we end up getting double copies for those pieces and sometimes we don't plan well enough in advance). We actually go out of our way to purchase these types of items locally to support our local dealers. While we were in the shop, I noticed that the AG was there.



Well if calling the salesperson "eager but not familiar with the instrument" is giving them a lousy review then I guess I'm guilty :rolleyes: Actually this is a simple fact, the salesperson admitted as such right off the bat (that they were not familiar with the instrument and didn't even play piano themselves). They even complemented the kids (both kids) playing on the instrument.



"Ashamed", no, hardly.



I've said nothing but good things about this shop to others and on this site for good reason, they've never been anything but very good towards us. That is the reason why we've purchased _two_ digital pianos from them (CLP-511 and CVP-407) and, as I've mentioned, a boat load of sheet music and other misc and sundry musical items. They've done right by us and, IMNSHO, we've done right by them. _I_ did not choose to put a person who was unfamiliar with their flagship digital product on the sales floor that day, I just simply reported the fact that the person they had there was unfamiliar. I did not criticize the shop or the sales person (though I did criticize the instrument, that is ok isn't it?).

As for commonsense, I would say that it goes both ways. I wouldn't be so quick to shoot from the hip with such comments.

Anyway, the shop, as usual, was great. As I've said, when I've walked into their store and told them that "I'm just looking", they'll just back off, are eager to help when they can, and are (for the most part ), "hands off" with the heavy sales pitches. I've purchased from them before and likely will again (I'm talking pianos, not just the little stuff) as they've given me absolutely no reason not to. Now I may not get an AG, I simply wasn't that impressed, but hey, that's just me.

Agreed, but like I said, they were about to close so we didn't have much time to really "get into" the instrument.



We already have a 407 and agree esp regarding the action, it was definitely leagues above the 407. It was the sound that really left me a bit confused.



Yup, I've said in the past that I preference tends to be towards a more "European" sound that stereotypically is considered a bit "brighter" than the NY S&S sound though a notch below the stereotypical Yamaha sound.



Viva la difference!

bitWrangler, I respect your opinion about what you think of the sustain. But it surprises me a little bit because I always think highly of the AG's sustain sound, even after 6 months of playing the N3 in and out every day, and lots of time using headphones to help hear everything as close up as possible. I think that the sustain sound is very clean, natural, long and rich with no easily detectible artifacts.

I do hear a little bit of a metallic "twang" (for lack of a better word) kinda wavering in and out during the sustain, especially noticeable on the lower bass registers. Maybe this is what you referred to as the "audible pulsing" that you think are "sampling artifacts". I, on the other hand, personally think that it's just the actual natural resonance and color of the harmonics going in and out of phase as the string goes through its course of the vibration. I've always been impressed every time I hold a note or notes in long sustain on the N3, to hear the rich and colorful sound of the sustain play out.

At first when I got the N3, the curiosity of the engineer in me kept looking to see if I could find that artificial looping and the break point in the loop that a typical sample has, but I just could never tell. So now I don't even bother anymore. I just simply sit back and enjoy the sound instead of trying to keep looking for a fault, especially if no fault is jumping out at me.

But I must admit that I don't own an acoustic grand so I really have no standard to compare to that I can use to find fault. While I can nitpick several shortcomings of the N3 in terms of functionality and features that an expensive digital like the N3 should have but doesn't have, I really can't find anything to fault its sound or its keyboard action or its feel.

Viva la difference!

Note to self:

Self, if ever living in the San Jose, CA area, avoid Carnes Piano Company like the plague. If a dealer shows contempt for shoppers and prospects interested enough in their products to take the time and trouble to go to their store and consider their offerings, imagine how they will treat you once they have taken your money.

Wow, how super rude is this guy?
If anyone should be ashamed, it should be you.

Perfect! My kind of people!

.

Posted by bitwrangler:

Also posted by bitwrangler:

Why was very noisy in the shop?



Your post is really grateful to them. Specially the unnecessary sarcastic used Steinway review, the uninformed salesperson, and the disappointing Avant N3, N2. I'm sure many store owners love customers like you.
You should send the owner of the shop a copy of your original post with a thank you note.

Dave,

That's pretty much how it went for me with the V last year. Infatuation that wore off kind of quickly. Of course I'd love to have one if someone else is picking up the tab. What's your opinion of the N3 sustain quality (not quantity), particularly in the treble, and the tonality of the lowest bass notes? To me those are usually points of easy differentiation.

Bit,

thanks for answering myu question (you shameless lout ).

Dave, if I already had something as decent as the GT-1 like you have (which I think is also real grand action, so the feel is already 100% there), I wouldn't shell out money for an AG either. I'd wait for at least the second if not third generation before even considering doing any upgrade. So I think you're taking a very sensible approach here. The AG is a good DP, but it's not THAT good that one would have to rush out and get it, especially if one already owns another very viable alternative, be it another DP or AP.

I think the AG fits only a small range of consumers: those who don't have a decent piano yet (be it a DP or AP), but don't want to deal with the hassles of an AP, yet willing to pay extra to get a very good DP that is good enough to give them a close enough acoustic experience without the acoustic high maintenance. So if you fit this bill and have around $12K to spend, then the AG is a natural choice.

I think it's unfortunate that Yamaha retails the N3 for $20K while the street prices are only around the $11K-$12K range. This creates a very high expectation (almost to a hype) of what a $20K DP should be able to deliver compared to a $20K acoustic grand (or maybe even higher priced grands, like a Bosie?) You can only be let down from such a hype.

But if the consumer's view has started out from a much lower and realistic expectation, from the angle of how a $12K (true street price) DP should sound and feel compared to a $12K (street price) acoustic grand, factored in the advantages that a DP offers (volume control and low maintenance), then the comparison and expectation would be more fair and realistic.

And let's face it. A DP is a DP is a DP. You can compare it against an AP all you want, but only to a point. It's not going to turn itself into an AP at the end of the day. If somebody really wants the realism of an AP and has $12K to blow, they should get an AP. But for people with that kind of money but still choose not to buy an AP because they want the low maintenance and practicality of a DP, the AG being a DP is the advantage and the desired trait, not a disadvantage or liability. To those people, practicality and price is just as important to them as realism, if not more.

Volusiano,

You make a lot of good points. IMO you have pretty much nailed down what Yamaha can reasonably expect as a market target. In terms of those of us who respect acoustics for what they are and don't wish to bury them, I think we are sometimes overeager to conclude: "This is it. This is the one that breaks the mold" when the latest tour de force of digital technology hits the market. Then there's a cooling down process which maybe sometimes loses sight of what actually has been accomplished.

I agree with you completely on the pricing issue. It's hard to imagine that Yamaha would be that far off target and that ready to retreat from its suggested price. I can only offer that Yamaha has been regularly boosting the MSRP's of its acoustics even while street prices decline, so maybe the high MSRP is there (as it often is with acoustics) to focus shoppers on the generosity of the discount rather than the comparative cost of the instrument.

How did we come to the conclusion that the "street price" on a new N3 is $12k. Just because one customer is able to get one in that ballpark does not mean that was not an abberation. The product is at the peak of it lifecycle and in demand. Do we have any other evidence of pricing in that range other than the one sale reported on this forum?

We have sold several N3s. All to acoustic grand shoppers shopping instruments in the $20-$30k range. In our experience, sales of the N3 has little to do with the "generosity of the discount" and much more to do with the performance value seen, felt, and heard by the customer.

I sold my Avant Grand N3 for far more than $12,000, and that was second-hand.

T'is a beautiful piano, both in sound and looks.

Snazzy

.

Marty, I just use the $12K based on Dave Ferris's report in his post (requoted above for reference) about a brand new N3 for 40% off retail in addition to OBO in the LA Craig List.

But I have heard of another PW member who told me (in a PM) that he got his new N3 for $12K out the door with tax and delivery from a dealer in the US in a different state than CA (after bargaining down from a $14K asking price). I will keep his name and location private for now. If he's reading this and wants to come out, he can do so himself.

I've also read from another public thread somewhere in the PW forum about a poster in LA (not Dave Ferris) saying he got quoted $14K from a dealer in LA. I forgot who this poster is. If you do a search, you may be able to find that post. But this is not purchase price, just quoted price from a dealer.

If you look at the Fine book, the N3 SMP is around $15.7K. So $12K is 24% below the SMP, within the 10-30% range the Fine book says the street price can be below SMP.

I got mine for well below $12K out the door as well. But I suspect my price might have been a corner case, not the norm.

So based on these data points, I think $12K is probably a very good deal (but not necessarily inachievable), but maybe $14K is more of the norm.

But within the context of my reply to Dave, I used $12K based on his 40% off retail data point just to make my point more relevant to his post. I couldn't care less if I had used $14K to make the same point.



I'm glad to hear this. It re-affirms that there are a many people out there who see the same values that I see in the N3. After being on this forum for a while, I thought it was just Snazzy and I who see this.

.

I understand the effect you're referring to, but the frequency of the modulation seems to match the note being played. The effect that I'm talking about seems to be at a lower "frequency", i.e. the modulation seems to repeat just a few times per second (or maybe up to once per second or so). It's hard for me to remember exactly now, but playing the N3 and acoustic side by side definitely created a difference in this regard. I would say that it's very likely that had I not had an acoustic to directly compare to, I wouldn't have noticed.

I realize I'm going a bit against the grain, but my ears heard what they heard. I'm more than willing to chalk this up to either poor setup, perhaps a bad example, or even the poor ears plus grey matter of an aging nerd. I will gladly give the N3 or N2 another (actually probably many other) auditions, the action alone is worth it.



Hey, you asked

I'm not sure what you're point is? Even with my son playing the other DP it still wasn't noisy (as I've mentioned before).



Well if an honest assessment of the Steinway is "unnecessary" and "sarcastic" then so be it. As I've mentioned before, it's not my fault that the shop chose to place someone who is not familiar with the product on the floor at that time, I was just reporting it. And again, an honest personal assessment of the N3 (never said I tried an N2). Just because we like our local dealer doesn't mean that I can't be honest about what transpired and be honest about my opinions of the actual instruments.

kurtman, it's obvious that our opinions differ on the dissemination of information with regards to dealer interactions. Things I view as honest (perhaps brutally so?) you seem to perceive as things that ought not be said. I assume that you're opinion will not change no matter what I say, so I'll just finish by saying that I guess we'll agree to disagree.

This is exactly how the cycle of postings becomes "reality" for readers/shoppers. Dave's posting $12k/40% off was for a used instrument from a private party with no factory warranty. For all we know, the seller may have gotten some jive deep artist discount direct from YCA on the item. One or two "reported price paid" posts does not make a "street price".

....said the man (retailer!) who wants the price to be as high as possible! You'll be telling us next how you've charged some poor sap full retail on one of these.

Really? I thought the factory warranty is transferrable from the original owner if he were to sell it during the warranty period. But maybe I'm wrong, since I never thought about this or asked my dealer. If this is indeed Yamaha's policy (non-transferrable warranty), this would be a big minus for people considering buying Yamaha's products.

As far as I can tell, the Roland and Kawai warranties also only cover the original purchaser, so Yamaha doesn't appear to be the odd man out here.