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#1381122 - 02/23/10 12:43 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: ted.stanion]
Harmonies Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/10
Posts: 30
Originally Posted By: ted.stanion
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Harmonies
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: dannylux
Sometimes you need ledger lines and 8va....

There's also the "16va" sign....

Wouldn't it be a "15va" sign?

LOLOLOL!!!!

Come to think of it, it sort of should be, but it isn't. smile


Actually, it should be and is. I've never seen 16va in a score, but I have seen 15va.

Ted


Likewise.
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#1381136 - 02/23/10 01:01 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: SamOnThePiano]
BruceD Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18290
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Samuel.cho
Schubert did the Same with his impromptu no 2 en E flat major. There are more than 6 ledger lines! Or seven. But I think that the piece wouldn't look simple with an 8va and could cause confusion. Is that the case?


I'm not sure what confusion that might cause. While both the Peters and the Henle - the latter being a Urtext edition - observe the leger line (I count only up to 5), the ABRSM edition (edited by Howard Ferguson) never goes beyond three leger lines. The rest is all taken care of the 8va., and I see no cause for confusion at all.

Regards,
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#1381139 - 02/23/10 01:05 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: ted.stanion]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: ted.stanion
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Harmonies
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: dannylux
Sometimes you need ledger lines and 8va....

There's also the "16va" sign....

Wouldn't it be a "15va" sign?

LOLOLOL!!!!
Come to think of it, it sort of should be, but it isn't. smile


Actually, it should be and is. I've never seen 16va in a score, but I have seen 15va.

Really??
Then I sukkk. smile

I could have sworn that what I've seen is the opposite.
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#1381144 - 02/23/10 01:12 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Mark_C]
Harmonies Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/10
Posts: 30
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: ted.stanion
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Harmonies
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: dannylux
Sometimes you need ledger lines and 8va....

There's also the "16va" sign....

Wouldn't it be a "15va" sign?

LOLOLOL!!!!
Come to think of it, it sort of should be, but it isn't. smile


Actually, it should be and is. I've never seen 16va in a score, but I have seen 15va.

Really??
Then I sukkk. smile

I could have sworn that what I've seen is the opposite.


You surely don't suck. Unless it's an odd type of editing I'd imagine that it is in fact 15va and it's a minor oversight.

Crazier things have happened.
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#1381146 - 02/23/10 01:16 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Harmonies]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Can anyone think of pieces that have the "15va" so we can go and look?

(And of course I'd be delighted if someone can think of where it might say 16va.) ha
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#1381153 - 02/23/10 01:21 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Mark_C]
Betty Patnude Offline
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Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Ex:

C to C is 8 CDEFGABC
C to C to C is 15 CDEFGABCDEFGABC

Do not make the mistake of counting the same note twice.
You must have calculated it at 2 octaves (8 notes x 2) 16.
Not correct.

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#1381155 - 02/23/10 01:21 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Mark_C]
BruceD Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18290
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: ted.stanion
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Harmonies
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: dannylux
Sometimes you need ledger lines and 8va....

There's also the "16va" sign....

Wouldn't it be a "15va" sign?

LOLOLOL!!!!
Come to think of it, it sort of should be, but it isn't. smile


Actually, it should be and is. I've never seen 16va in a score, but I have seen 15va.

Really??
Then I sukkk. smile

I could have sworn that what I've seen is the opposite.


You might all be wrong, theoretically, at least, if one follows what is indicated by Dolmetsch Online :

8va = abbreviation for ottava alta
15ma = abbreviation for quindicessima alta, although I have never seen 15ma although I believe I have seen 15va.

Regards,
_________________________
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Estonia 190

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#1381157 - 02/23/10 01:24 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Betty Patnude]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
(We knew that) smile
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#1381159 - 02/23/10 01:25 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: BruceD]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Yes, it's 15ma, but it's extremely rare.

Technically it's 8vb (ottava basso) for notating below the written pitch, but a lot of publishers seem to be lazy and use 8va for both.
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#1381162 - 02/23/10 01:28 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Kreisler]
BruceD Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
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Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Yes, it's 15ma, but it's extremely rare.

Technically it's 8vb (ottava basso) for notating below the written pitch, but a lot of publishers seem to be lazy and use 8va for both.


Many editors leave out the 'va' after '8'; similarly, when needed, they may just write '15'

Regards,
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#1381184 - 02/23/10 01:41 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: BruceD]
Jeff Clef Offline
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Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4441
Loc: San Jose, CA
I'm sure there's some good reason there's not a separate staff with a "super-treble" clef of its own, for those times when there are extended passages with "that many" ledger lines and some reason 8va won't serve.

Since there isn't--- flash cards. Tiresome, but time-tested. And practice.

Counting ledger lines is the express track to a migraine.


Edited by Jeff Clef (02/23/10 01:42 PM)
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#1381299 - 02/23/10 03:37 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Jeff Clef]
ChopinAddict Offline
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Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6160
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
I don't really mind for the piano.... Although if I really had to choose, I would go for the 8va....

On the other hand, for the flute I prefer the notes (ledger lines). I don't know, maybe because the fingerings for the highest octave are different, and when I see the notes, even if they have an 8va, I tend to see the fingerings for those notes in my mind... smirk
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#1381312 - 02/23/10 03:47 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: ChopinAddict]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
......for the flute I prefer the notes (ledger lines). I don't know, maybe because the fingerings for the highest octave are different, and when I see the notes, even if they have an 8va, I tend to see the fingerings for those notes in my mind... smirk

Interesting!!!!
I don't think too many of us knew about that......
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#1381321 - 02/23/10 04:01 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: ChopinAddict]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
I'm with Kreisler generally on this issue:
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
For me it just depends on the length of the passage. Extended passages in 8va are always nice, but for short passages, I find the 8va line and mental gymnastics to be not worth the bother.
I do lots of sight-reading in my line of work (and so read a lot by interval and shape) and unless the passage jumps around a great deal I find it easier to just follow the ledger lines up. The OP's example I would prefer as printed.

As well as the flute example CA mentions, it's a similar situation to a clef change in (for example) viola or cello music for just one or two notes. Most players would prefer to read the ledger line rather than re-orient themselves to the other clef then back again straight away. At least that's what string players who are more skilled than I am have told me.
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#1381335 - 02/23/10 04:24 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Jeff Clef]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
There's always piccolo, which is written on the treble staff but sounds an octave higher than written. Not really the same thing, but an interesting tangent worth noting. (I hope!)

Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
I'm sure there's some good reason there's not a separate staff with a "super-treble" clef of its own, for those times when there are extended passages with "that many" ledger lines and some reason 8va won't serve.

Since there isn't--- flash cards. Tiresome, but time-tested. And practice.

Counting ledger lines is the express track to a migraine.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1381339 - 02/23/10 04:27 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: ChopinAddict]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18290
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
I don't really mind for the piano.... Although if I really had to choose, I would go for the 8va....

On the other hand, for the flute I prefer the notes (ledger lines). I don't know, maybe because the fingerings for the highest octave are different, and when I see the notes, even if they have an 8va, I tend to see the fingerings for those notes in my mind... smirk


That's a very interesting fact that I didn't know. I can understand the preference, for flautists and for some other instrumentalists, to prefer notation using leger lines if the fingering is going to be different from octave to octave.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
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Estonia 190

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#1381381 - 02/23/10 05:26 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: ChopinAddict]
DadAgain Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 365
Loc: Brisbane, QLD
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
On the other hand, for the flute I prefer the notes (ledger lines


Indeed - on the piano I'd prefer "8va" - but the quickest way to derail any high passage for violins, violas or celli in an orchestra is to write it "8va" - it throws everyone into an fit and causes whole sections to be hand-written out at correct pitch with ledger lines!!

Our orchestra (decent amateur group) has this exact problem at the moment - and because we cant read "8va" we have at least 70% of the strings playing one section an octave lower than it should be because "8va" is just NOT done!


Originally Posted By: Currawong
it's a similar situation to a clef change in (for example) viola or cello music for just one or two notes. Most players would prefer to read the ledger line rather than re-orient themselves to the other clef then back again straight away. At least that's what string players who are more skilled than I am have told me.

Confirmed!!! (As a Viola player I HATE short excursions into the treble clef - but for a prolonged passage its fine.)


Edited by DadAgain (02/23/10 05:29 PM)
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Former conductor... (been a long time since I was set loose with a magic wand!)

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#1381409 - 02/23/10 06:11 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: DadAgain]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18290
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: DadAgain
[...]
Indeed - on the piano I'd prefer "8va" - but the quickest way to derail any high passage for violins, violas or celli in an orchestra is to write it "8va" - it throws everyone into an fit and causes whole sections to be hand-written out at correct pitch with ledger lines!!


Why is that? Is it because there is a difference in fingering in different positions (3rd, 4th, etc.)? If that is the case, I can understand the confusion ("Oh! With everything else going on, I didn't see the 8va.") Otherwise, I don't understand why an "8va" would derail a string player to the extent that passages have to be rewritten. Is it a case of bad editing or inexperience on the part of the players?

All very interesting from a non-string-player's point of view.

Regards,
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Estonia 190

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#1381452 - 02/23/10 07:18 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: BruceD]
DadAgain Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 365
Loc: Brisbane, QLD
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Why is that? Is it because there is a difference in fingering in different positions (3rd, 4th, etc.)? ..Otherwise, I don't understand why an "8va" would derail a string player to the extent that passages have to be rewritten. Is it a case of bad editing or inexperience on the part of the players?


Yeah - an octave is a LONG way on a string instrument - so typically a phrase is going to be played in different positions, on different strings and completely different fingers.

I cant speak for all string players - but when looking at Piano music I 'see' A/B/C etc etc and can name any note in a split second without any thought.. When I look at Viola music I DONT!! - I see notes and think of them as possible positions on strings (tough to explain) - My mind never got into the 'labelling' and octaves have FAR less significance to me!

(For the record Piano was my principal instrument in my music degree but I was always a better Viola player than pianist - so I dont think its a lack of experience - just a different approach)
_________________________
Parent....
Orchestral Viola player (stictly amateur)....
Hack Pianist.... (faded skills from glory days 20 yrs ago)
Vague Guitar & Bass player.... (former minor income stream 15 yrs ago)
Former conductor... (been a long time since I was set loose with a magic wand!)

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#1381465 - 02/23/10 07:45 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: DadAgain]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Think about it this way, too: a phrase looks the same on the piano keyboard no matter which octave you play it in (so 8va indications can be helpful, simplifiying reading). But this is far from being so on a stringed instrument.
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#1381498 - 02/23/10 08:46 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Kreisler]
riley80 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/03/08
Posts: 389
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Yes, it's 15ma, but it's extremely rare.

Technically it's 8vb (ottava basso) for notating below the written pitch, but a lot of publishers seem to be lazy and use 8va for both.


Agree. I recently saw 8vb and thought for a second it was a typo.

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#1381537 - 02/23/10 09:51 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: riley80]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: riley80
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Yes, it's 15ma, but it's extremely rare.

Technically it's 8vb (ottava basso) for notating below the written pitch, but a lot of publishers seem to be lazy and use 8va for both.


Agree. I recently saw 8vb and thought for a second it was a typo.


I do a lot of music for beginner pianists, and I use 15ma all the time, often where a sequence was 8va and then repeated an octave higher. Sometimes, however, we just write in italics: play two octaves higher.

This frees the student from the stress of reading pressure, and they can focus simply on the performance of the piece over the whole keyboard.

Meantime, I do agree that on the whole ledger lines are easier to read in that they keep the geographical relationships clear in the notation.....
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#1381552 - 02/23/10 10:20 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Elissa Milne]
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2368
Loc: Denver, CO
I've worked through some scores where the ledger lines were so close together that you could not see the breaks between them. It becomes a challenge then just to know which line is the top line of the staff and which lines are the ledger lines.

Rich
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#1381561 - 02/23/10 10:40 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: DadAgain]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: DadAgain
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Why is that? Is it because there is a difference in fingering in different positions (3rd, 4th, etc.)? ..Otherwise, I don't understand why an "8va" would derail a string player to the extent that passages have to be rewritten. Is it a case of bad editing or inexperience on the part of the players?

Yeah - an octave is a LONG way on a string instrument - so typically a phrase is going to be played in different positions, on different strings and completely different fingers.....

Yes -- and as per that last part, it doesn't depend at all on "different positions." On string instruments, the same note in different octaves is played completely differently, even in the same position. There's no relation at all between how you play one "C" (or whatever note) and any other C.

I was surprised to learn what ChopinAddict said about the flute. I shouldn't have been, because I actually play violin and so I should have thought of how it is on other instruments besides the piano. I guess I've been doing too much piano. smile
And anyway.....I wouldn't have thought that the notation of piano music would have any effect from how it would be on other instruments. But maybe composers just get into the habit of observing such considerations, even when a piece is for an instrument where it doesn't matter in this way.
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#1381631 - 02/24/10 12:48 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Mark_C]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6160
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Here is a flute fingering chart, for those who are interested... smile
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1381681 - 02/24/10 03:18 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Jeff Clef]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8026
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
I'm sure there's some good reason there's not a separate staff with a "super-treble" clef of its own, for those times when there are extended passages with "that many" ledger lines and some reason 8va won't serve.



Those kind of clefs do exist; I'm not sure why we don't see them more often in piano music. I seem to remember seeing them in 4-hand music sometimes.

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#1381710 - 02/24/10 05:59 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: wr]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
I'm sure there's some good reason there's not a separate staff with a "super-treble" clef of its own, for those times when there are extended passages with "that many" ledger lines and some reason 8va won't serve.



Those kind of clefs do exist; I'm not sure why we don't see them more often in piano music. I seem to remember seeing them in 4-hand music sometimes.



Cos it's easier to use 8va/15ma etc. if you are moving around the extremes, and it's extremely rare to have the whole piece needing to be in that one extreme register.
_________________________
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#1382225 - 02/24/10 07:51 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Elissa Milne]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8026
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
I'm sure there's some good reason there's not a separate staff with a "super-treble" clef of its own, for those times when there are extended passages with "that many" ledger lines and some reason 8va won't serve.



Those kind of clefs do exist; I'm not sure why we don't see them more often in piano music. I seem to remember seeing them in 4-hand music sometimes.



Cos it's easier to use 8va/15ma etc. if you are moving around the extremes, and it's extremely rare to have the whole piece needing to be in that one extreme register.


You are probably right about the ease of use in most cases. And too, things tend to get standardized. But if I am understanding you correctly, the thing about a whole piece being in an extreme register doesn't really make too much sense, since clefs can (and often do) change anywhere during the course of a piece.

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#1382458 - 02/25/10 05:08 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: wr]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
I don't quite understand your question/observation, wr. Clefs only change if you are moving which register you are using. So if a whole piece was in an extreme register it might make sense to use a clef which signified that everything was two octaves higher than written, but if you are darting about high and low it is often less effort to keep things in the standard clef but signify the register change through 8va and 15ma. This is very clear to see at a glance (no checking what kind of a treble clef is being used).

Composers *should* be aiming to create scores that are the simplest series of instructions to follow in order to realise the music the composer has imagined. The more things to confuse the performer the greater chance that the music of the composer will be altered unintentionally.

Otherwise, you could do any fool thing with clefs - or with 8va/15ma for that matter.
_________________________
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#1382545 - 02/25/10 09:41 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: riley80]
riley80 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/03/08
Posts: 389
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: riley80
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Yes, it's 15ma, but it's extremely rare.

Technically it's 8vb (ottava basso) for notating below the written pitch, but a lot of publishers seem to be lazy and use 8va for both.


Agree. I recently saw 8vb and thought for a second it was a typo.


_____________________________________________

Sorry to piggyback on my own post but.....
last night I saw the use of 8vb for one note! In that case, I'd have sooner seen it on legers.

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