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#1382432 - 02/25/10 02:34 AM any JOY of Improvisation students?
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
Hi there. was just wondering if there are any other people working through the book and what your experiences were.

I would be interested in how long it takes you to get through a lesson too

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#1382504 - 02/25/10 07:50 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Saiman,

I have been on this method studying with Dave for over a year now, I am halfway through book 2. I spend 2 weeks per lessons.
We also do improvisation, composition, and imitation (singing along to solos). Often, I'll keep improvising on a tune for longer than 2 weeks.

Let me know if you have questions
++

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#1382511 - 02/25/10 08:07 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: knotty]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
oh ok, that great to know. So you can definitely say its worth the hard work? It takes me 3 weeks easily to do the lesson properly if I practice 1-2 hours a day. Was just wondering if that normal cos it seems long to me.

I noticed that it makes sense to work out a good fingering and write it down. Any thoughts on that?

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#1382513 - 02/25/10 08:09 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
oh something else, when you do the JOY line in all key, do you do it with the left hand chords. In other words do you also work out the left hand chords in all key and practice them with the line. That also takes me a while

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#1382517 - 02/25/10 08:33 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
yes, from playing the tunes, you get a couple of things. If your reading is not too good, you'll improve that just enough to play from leadsheets later on.
It's a good idea to write down the fingering.

You can do the solo patterns in all keys, but you don't have to. We don't do it. Dave told you on the other thread that you don't have to do it, you'll save a lot of time that way. But it can't hurt.

The important part is to sing the tunes. PLay LH chords while singing the lines. That's important, so don't skip that.
Also you can record yourself playing them and take them along wherever you go. That's an easy way to find time to practice the singing part.

Is it worth the hard work?
I'm pretty convinced Dave is one of the best Jazz teachers out there. I've never asked myself what to practice on since I started, I got plenty to do. And if I was ever playing more, he'd give me tons of other things to work on .

Above all, I'm really having fun with it. The singing part will pay off.

take care

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#1382528 - 02/25/10 09:07 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: knotty]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
thanks knotty. yes dave is awesome. I just listened to his charlie parker lesson. Also had a look at your blog. Great stuff. You dont even sound like you need lessons smile

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#1382614 - 02/25/10 11:17 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
haha, thanks, but I think I'm a student for life!

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#1382693 - 02/25/10 12:59 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: knotty]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 672
you're not transposing the tunes in all keys, are you? Just the jazzhanon:)

Dave Frank

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#1383531 - 02/26/10 04:32 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: davefrank]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
Originally Posted By: davefrank
you're not transposing the tunes in all keys, are you? Just the jazzhanon:)

Dave Frank


Oh no that would be crazy, I meant the solo pattern. Maybe I also worry too much about perfectionizing every piece. Its just that I never seem to be able to play a piece without messing up somewhere. So I keep practicing them over and over.

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#1383566 - 02/26/10 05:35 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 672
That's more of the classical approach. It's enough to learn the pieces, play them at a comfortable tempo, and try to get them 90%. The other 10% is gravy! In jazz, it's not about get everything note perfect, it's more about the process, the enjoyment, and the swing. Play the pieces a few times, sing them also, then forget em:)Go on.

It's so wonderful to have this music with you for your whole life. It snowed 20" today in NYC, I'm having a great day practicing in the great indoors on 52nd St. Endless improvisation, constantly expanding, a growing, intriguing, interesting and changing process, what a groove:)

Dave Frank

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#1383689 - 02/26/10 09:22 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: davefrank]
Riddler Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 613
Loc: Florida
I ordered both volumes in a burst of enthusiasm after watching the Charlie Parker program. They arrived yesterday, and I started on the first lesson today.

Not sure what I'll do about transposing the solo lines. I'm thinking I might try a compromise - transpose to two or three keys - the easiest ones, of course. I can do that on the fly, once I know the line, but I'm afraid that if I try to do all keys it will become one of those dreaded chores that sap my enthusiasm.

BTW, I absolutely love the early Louis Armstrong recordings. "Struttin' With Some Barbecue" - - what a magnificent performance!!!

Ed
_________________________
http://edsjazzpianopage.blogspot.com/

My fingers are slow, but easily keep pace with my thoughts.


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#1384686 - 02/28/10 10:44 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: Riddler]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hey Riddler, welcome to the club. One thing I'm realizing is that nothing in this method should ever get boring. With each lesson, you have a variety from jazz hanons and voicings, to playing tunes, composing them, and improvising on them. And then, there's the singing along.

there's stutting, the first singing along I did. However, I didn't record the singing then, but now, I started doing that. Let them laugh wink
http://jazzitup-knot.blogspot.com/2009/02/back-to-pops.html

One thing that amazes me, more so with Bird than the others, is how when you slow it down, you start hearing things you never realized were there. In particular, how beautiful the lines are. And then, at full speed, it starts becoming more understandable.
I can't imagine the surprise of those who first discovered Bird on 52nd St.

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#1385213 - 02/28/10 11:30 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: knotty]
Riddler Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 613
Loc: Florida
Knotty,

Thanks for the welcome! And for the encouragement!

I know what you mean about finding great lines when you slow things down. I don't have any Slowdowner software (I suppose I oughta get some), but sometimes I slow down recordings with Windows Media Player. I notice that, even in Armstrong's recordings, if I slow it down I hear things I hadn't noticed - balance, symmetry, resolutions, twists and turns at a microscopic level, that somehow end up where they are supposed to.

BTW, I listened to a different recording of Barbecue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxGruxZVavM

Great stuff!

Ed
_________________________
http://edsjazzpianopage.blogspot.com/

My fingers are slow, but easily keep pace with my thoughts.


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#1405063 - 03/27/10 05:43 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: Riddler]
Riddler Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 613
Loc: Florida
I have always avoided transcribing because I assumed it would be painful, but I now find to my great surprise that it can be great fun. For me, the secret is to pick really great solos which you like to listen to (Dave has picked some winners for us) and to avoid notating.

What I'm doing with the Louis Armstrong recordings after I know the solo by heart (from singing along) is to record it on my computer in midi (by playing it on my piano keyboard), then playing it back at the right tempo and key, using a trumpet patch.

So here is my version of Louis Armstrong's solo on Got No Blues:

http://www.box.net/shared/i3xnu4nln6

Of course, there is a lot of expression in horn solos that you can't play on the piano or capture in midi, but hey, no way am I going to try to take up the trumpet!

Ed
_________________________
http://edsjazzpianopage.blogspot.com/

My fingers are slow, but easily keep pace with my thoughts.


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#1405074 - 03/27/10 06:14 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: Riddler]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
awesome!
Isn't it fun?

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#1405167 - 03/27/10 09:35 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
I ordered JOI because Riddler did and I didn't want to be left out !
You have to put in the effort but it's worth it. I'm on Week 1 and have seen tangible benefits already.
1. I have a better feeling for swing which is my weakness.
2. I previously thought I wasn't good enough to do transcribing but the JazzHanons force you to start. I've discovered that I'm actually good at the JazzHannons.
3. My strength is harmony and my ear has picked up on nice patterns within and between chords.

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#1405170 - 03/27/10 09:42 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: davefrank]
ronmon Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 18
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
I'm thinking about buying these books. About how far along should you be in your piano studies in order to start and get something out of it?? Thanks!
_________________________
Ron

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#1405189 - 03/27/10 10:22 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: ronmon]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Ronmon,

I really don't think you need much background at all. The only thing you need is to keep at it, like any other method really. Just stick to it.
Basic note reading will help. Basic understanding of chord will help too, but you can get that knowledge easily for free.
You can take it at your own pace, there's no set tempo on how to play the hanons or tunes for example. Just find what's challenging.

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#1405196 - 03/27/10 10:39 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: knotty]
ronmon Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 18
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Knotty:

Right on!! Thanks a lot. I'm going to pick up this course and get started immediately. Can't tell you how pumped up I am to get back to playing some great jazz music. This forum has truly been awesome/inspiring!! Thanks again.

Ron
_________________________
Ron

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#1405230 - 03/27/10 11:37 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: ronmon]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Great stuff Ron, you won't regret

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#1405631 - 03/28/10 03:40 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: custard apple]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
I can't say exactly whether its helped my improvising but I'm really brushing up my sight reading and left hand chording. Its awesome for that. Only problem I have is locating the armstrong recordings. Where can you get them? Singing with the pro's is the only part of the method which I still need to get into. The other day I tried to sing some of joe sample's solos but I have trouble memorizing the lines in my head

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#1405885 - 03/28/10 10:52 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Hi Saiman, I'm getting the Louis Armstrong ones from you-tube.
You wouldn't believe it but I don't own any Armstrong albums. But I am soon going to invest. I didn't know how awesome trad jazz was until I started JOI.
I sing for 15 minutes a day before I touch the piano. Don't miss out this step. As Dave said in the intro, it is the method for connecting the ear to your hands.

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#1406897 - 03/30/10 07:02 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: custard apple]
PaulMac Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/29/09
Posts: 26
Loc: United Kingdom
Can someone give me a link to this method please?

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#1406956 - 03/30/10 09:25 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: PaulMac]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)

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#1407523 - 03/31/10 12:08 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: knotty]
PaulMac Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/29/09
Posts: 26
Loc: United Kingdom
Thanks, I have it on order.

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#1407574 - 03/31/10 04:03 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: PaulMac]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
hi guys. i got myself a Louis Armstrong CD. Its called Ken Burns Jazz Series: Louis Armstrong. I know its not the same recordings as recommended in Joy but I guess its better than nothing. The first song is called Chimes Blues. It has a nice solo in it which does not seem too complicated. However, Im still finding it hard to keep memorizing and singing the exact lines. Whats the best method of getting a solo into your ear?

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#1407694 - 03/31/10 09:56 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Saiman,

the way I do it:

I learn one phrase at a time. Louis doesn't have 16 bar lines, it's mostly 2-3 bars before you get a rest. So it's easy for me to split that way.
I play each phrase on the keyboard at the same time, it helps me narrow down on the exact pitch being played, and I can sing it slow and make sure I got it.
Each phrase would typically take me 5 to 10 minutes, repeating it as needed, maybe 30 times.
After I've done each phrase by itself, I go back to the beginning and do 2 phrases at a time.
Then 4.
Then usually the whole chorus.
I do this over a period of 2 weeks, when I have time.

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#1408470 - 04/01/10 10:10 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: knotty]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
thanks knotty. you always a great help

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#1408580 - 04/01/10 01:00 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
Bonita Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1
Does anyone know of any software available that can transcribe a piece of piano music from an Mp3 file and create the sheet music for it? Thanks!

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#1408586 - 04/01/10 01:12 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: Bonita]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
look at Melodyne. It's supposed to do it.
from their website:

----
The New Power of Melodyne

Melodyne editor is the first Celemony product to offer the revolutionary Direct Note Access technology. This makes possible what had previously been considered impossible: access to individual notes in polyphonic audio material. Correct wrong notes in a piano recording; change the chords in a guitar accompaniment after the recording is over; refashion a sample lick. Melodyne editor lets you do things of which, until now, you could only dream. -

-------

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