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#1412612 - 04/06/10 10:55 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: davefrank]
ronmon Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 18
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Anybody know if my analysis of Leaf Line is correct? See below:

Bars 1-3 = II,V,I in B flat Major

Bars 4-8 = I, II of III, V of III, III in E flat Major

Bars 9-11 = II, V, I in B flat Major

Bars 12-20 = I, II of III, V of III, III, III, II of III, V of III, III, III in E flat Major

Bars 21-23 = II, II, V, I in B flat Major

Bars 24-27 = I, II of III, V of III, III in E flat Major

Bars 28-32 = II, V, I, V of III, V of III, III,III in E flat Major

I wasn't sure how to classify the suspended fourth chord so I labeled it as a V of III.

Thoughts??
_________________________
Ron

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#1412635 - 04/06/10 11:35 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: davefrank]
ronmon Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 18
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Follow on...Before I get into playing the various peices in the book, I want to analyze the tunes and then take a look at the Solo Pattern to figure out what scales are being utilized within it. I guess I like to know the "why" of what I am doing so it cements itself in my noggin!! I don't know if anyone is using this approach along with the lesson plan in the book, but it helps me tremendously.
_________________________
Ron

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#1412698 - 04/07/10 02:42 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: ronmon]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Hey Ron
Thanks for your interesting post. I don't think of the JOI tunes in terms of chord progressions/ scales. But I think I need to do so, in addition to my big picture approach.
I think of the jazz tune Leaf Line as
Bars 1 to 8: Theme A
Bars 9 to 16: Theme A repeated
Bars 17 to 24: Theme B, bars 21 & 22 build to climax
Bars 25 to 32: Theme A varied

I think improv is made up of both understanding the melodic idea (my approach) and understanding the harmonic structure (your approach).

For the sus chord I think of it as a beautiful chilled passing note which requires resolution. In Leaf Line, it's extra nice because the D7sus moves to a kind of tension note, the dominant 7, before moving to the home note G min/Bb maj.

Knotty et al: How do you approach the Jazz tune and the Blues tune ?

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#1412728 - 04/07/10 03:58 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: custard apple]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
hi ronmon. To be hundred percent correct the tune plays around in 2 keys, Bbmaj and Gmin. The chord changes are the same as Autumn leaves. For example

Theme A:

Cmin7, F7, Bmaj7, Ebmaj7 (2,5,1,4 in Bb)

Amin7b5, D7b9, Gmin6 (2,5,1 in Gminor)

The Gmin6 is stretches over 2 bars but what most people to is that they turn it into a dominant chord in the second bar so that it leads back to the Cmin7 for Theme A repeated.

Hope this helps.

In terms of the improv, I am a total beginner at Jazz but I think the point is not to overanalyse the tunes but to focus on phrasing and develop you inner ear by singing and playing. In my opinion Joy of Improv is an approach that focuses on immersing yourself into the music rather than analyzing and deconstructing it.

Maybe Dave can also shed some light here smile

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#1412732 - 04/07/10 04:04 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
i don't know what you man by the suspended chord but I think the part you talking about is some form of

Gmin7C7b9|Fmin7 B7b9| progression as you find it in the Autumn leaves (Bb) bridge (on the word "darling". After that it goes back to Eb, then a diminished chord and then back to the chorus.

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#1412750 - 04/07/10 05:28 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 672
in terms of the tune analyzation, Saiman wins the prize! (A year's worth of canned ham:)Each of the JOI jazz tunes is based directly on a standard. Leaf Line is Autumn Leaves, the key centers moving mostly between Bb Maj and G min, with a few bars of Eb towards the end.

In Book 2 there is a section called Basic Chord Progressions which explains this subject of tune analysis in detail. Ultimately it is really important to understand how the standards are basically made up of sequences of basic progressions.

It's never a problem if you want to analyze the chord structure when you tackle one of the JOI tunes, but Saiman is right that at the beginning immersion in the music is the basic focus; the theory knowledge can come sooner or later based on your interest in the subject. Definately by Book 2 you want to get into the subject, earlier if you can't sleep nights because you're trying to figure out why the C7 in bar 12 has a #11...

Watch out, my fellow tune detectives, some of the titles are double-puns instead of single puns (Froggy Day is Someday my prince will come:)

Blessings and keep swingin

Dave Frank

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#1412754 - 04/07/10 05:34 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: davefrank]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
thanks so much adding meat to this threat Dave. Let all keep sharing our experiences with this method and maybe even start posting some recordings. As soon as I have all the technical aspects sorted out Ill upload some stuff smile

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#1412777 - 04/07/10 07:44 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: davefrank]
ronmon Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 18
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Wow...I was way off on this one...lol. Thanks for setting me straight guys. I was so stoked to get after this material I guess I didn't really listen to the song and the changes before setting out on my "little adventure" in chord theory!!!

Great to have people out there that can help and are working through some of the same things. Probably just need to get out of my own way and just play!!

Thanks again everyone...gotta go to work for now!

Have a great day!
_________________________
Ron

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#1412793 - 04/07/10 09:17 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: ronmon]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 672
if you guys would like, if there's some way to hook up in a conference video call sometime (I haven't done that one yet but I'm sure there's a way to do it), we can all meet in cyberspace for a free group Joy of Improv party. That would be fun.


DF

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#1412802 - 04/07/10 09:30 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: davefrank]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Thank you Saiman and Dave. After your posts, I'm going to look at Autumn Leaves tomorrow.
I NEVER would have guessed the double pun for A Froggy Day. I'm going to bed now but when I get up, I'm going to go through the titles and see which ones I can work out.

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#1482610 - 07/27/10 05:23 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: custard apple]
flat13sharp11 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/09
Posts: 117
Loc: Lancashire, UK
I'm trying to find a book that introduces you to improv. Is JOI a good place to start?

I was considering the Ligon books but maybe think that they'll be a bit too intensive for now. I have just been learning standard arrangements lately but want to start improvising, but it's knowing where to start!!

Thanks
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/timwood1987

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#1482796 - 07/27/10 09:53 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: flat13sharp11]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Hi b13 #11
You just can’t go wrong with JOI. I’m on Lesson 11. It will help you think melodically which is fundamental for composition/ improvisation. You will increase your jazz vocab through singing the JOI tunes composed by Dave Frank, Lester Young tunes, John Coltrane tunes etc.
You will learn cool jazz voicings in a fun way – in the context of songs. And develop the chops to execute by doing jazz Hanons.
Needless to say all the rhythm has swing !
If you look at the you-tube web-site for Knotty who has just finished the JOI course, he does all this awesome Charlie Parker stuff.

Further to the previous comments of jazzwee and Knotty, a great performer has articulated a technique and made it very “accessible”.

Let me know if you have any more questions

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#1483025 - 07/28/10 08:10 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hey b13,

JOI is a method that is intended to give you the foundations needed to improvise. I am not aware of any other method like this, with exercises given to you daily. I have completed both volumes in about 2 years.

It is best supplemented by lessons from Dave himself, who teaches around the world via Skype. If you're interested, send him an email. Dave's not only one of the best pianists today, he is a master jazz educator.
With his help, you will dig into improvisation at the pace that's right for you. The 2 books do not have any particular improvisation exercises, but we use them to create exercises. For example, we compose solos, which is very helpful in improvisation.
The path to improvising on any tune is well defined, the secret is in building blocks one at a time.

If you were a complete beginner in improvisation, you may just start with a Major 2-5-1 for a week, then a minor 2-5-1 for a week.
Then improvise over other short progressions, until you finally start improvising on Autumn leaves for example, and then other simple tunes.
Every time, you'd get feedback on what you need to correct.
At first, scales and chords are chosen for you, so you need only focus on the foundation. You play slow to ensure you are in control. Once that is master, you add more ingredients to the recipe.

Custard apple started a thread on JOI :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1421126/1.html

you can take a quick look. The method in meant to be a balance of technique, theory and ear development. But even the technique exercises are fun.

Take care

(cus, thanks for the mention wink )


Edited by knotty (07/28/10 09:34 AM)

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#2067493 - 04/20/13 07:52 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
Jean-Luc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 322
Loc: France
Hello, I posted my question in the beginner forum, but maybe more chances to have someone bale to answer me here smile

I just received my copy of Joy of Improv today from Amazon (volume 2, volume 1 should arrive on Monday) and I was surprised to see it arrive without CD (the box was perfect, no way it went missing during the travel) so I was wondering if it has to be purchased separately ? And if so, where ? (I live in Europe, and for me, Amazon was more or less the only option possible.
I will work alone (my teacher is REALLY not a jazz person (I live in a very small town, so no other option), so, the CD is kind of important :((
Thank you in advance for any information smile
_________________________
- Please, forgive my bad English smile

Jean-Luc

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#2067786 - 04/20/13 08:46 PM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Coucou Jean-Luc
My understanding is that the book should come with the CD attached on the back page.
It's a pity your book did not include the CD. The CD will be your best friend in getting you used to the swing feel of jazz.

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#2067873 - 04/21/13 05:31 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
Jean-Luc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 322
Loc: France
Hallo Custard Apple,

I sent a message to Dave to see if he can help, maybe provide me with a link to download the CD if I provide him with the proof I actually bought the books. It is a brand new copy purchased from Amazon at a regular price so I do not understand why there was no CD. Amazon offered me to send back the books and get a refund, but that's not what I want, it took quiet a while for them to arrive and now I just want to use them smile It's not the first time I have this kind of issue with Amazon, but usually it's because you have a version with and without CD, here, according to Hal Leonard site, there is only a "with CD" version. It's most certainly not to be an annoying person, but I will be working without teacher (my teacher is not a Jazz person at all and I have no other choice in my tiny little place), so, as you said, the CD will be a must. I just felt very bad bugging Dave, he is already very generous of his time with the free videos he posts, it didn't feel right to annoy him with that kind of problems smile
(I just checked the cover of the book and no trace of glue at all, so I guess, at least on this one no CD, I should get book one tomorrow, I hope at least this one will have the CD, maybe they just remove them from the copy they send to Europe, don't know :()


Edited by Jean-Luc (04/21/13 05:33 AM)
_________________________
- Please, forgive my bad English smile

Jean-Luc

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#2067910 - 04/21/13 07:57 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Hey Jean Luc
So you're keen to start but amazon US takes a long time to ship to far flung destinations.
Did you see this Lesson 1 on Dave's web-site ?
Today you can start on Exercise 3 the voicings, you don't need the CD for that.

http://www.davefrankjazz.com/books_vid/binder.pdf

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#2067915 - 04/21/13 08:18 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
casinitaly Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 4869
Loc: Italy
I've found Amazon to be pretty good when dealing with problems of any sort.

I mostly deal with Amazon.co.uk (because Amazon.it doesn't have most of the stuff that interests me!) and given the identical format of all the Amazon sites I've even been comfortable with using the French or German sites.

I try to avoid shipping costs and almost never order from Amazon.com for shipments overseas.

It is also interesting to note that the prices vary quite a bit from site to site (even taking into consideration any currency exchange rates, Italy is ALWAYS a lot more expensive..hence my ordering from the UK... I just make sure I am ordering enough to qualify for free shipping!)
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2067917 - 04/21/13 08:20 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
Jean-Luc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 322
Loc: France
Thank you Custard Apple smile Book one should arrive tomorrow (according to the tracking information) and maybe this one will have a CD. Anyway, I know it will be a very long journey (I started with the Piano last September, so each lesson - if I am able to do them - will take me probably more than two weeks). But luckily for me, I really like the music theory side of things so I hope it will help a bit, at least with the understanding. Jazz (and Bach) is the reason why I learn piano and even if I realize it's probably not an accessible one (especially without a good teacher), I will try smile
_________________________
- Please, forgive my bad English smile

Jean-Luc

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#2067924 - 04/21/13 08:40 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
You're welcome Jean-Luc.
More than 2 weeks per lesson is fine.
Bach is awesome, I hope you will keep up Bach.

Yes I agree that JOI is best done with a jazz teacher.
If you like, you can post your recordings. I recorded everything so that Knotty could guide me through JOI.

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#2068470 - 04/22/13 05:15 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
Jean-Luc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 322
Loc: France
The good news for me, is the fact that today I received book one of Joy of Improv and this one came with the CD attached to the cover :):):). So I will be able to start and maybe next time Dave visit the forum he will see my message and be able to help me (or give the green light to the nice member who offered me to help).
In the mean time, I started following Dave's "Beginning Improvisation using Modal Vamps w/Dave Frank" and I really, but I mean REALLY enjoy it :), it is very simple, but it's a first step, and it's really enjoyable.
@ casinitaly : In fact, Amazon offered me to return the book and refund me, which is not exactly what I want, I definitively want to keep it smile
@ Custard Apple : I think, it might probably be more than two weeks for each lesson, at least at the beginning. I will also keep up Bach, in fact, I can't remain a day without listening at least a few minutes to something by him, so I guess I have no choice smile.
This is a nice about the recordings, I will try to post when I get going, and if it's not too much bother I will surely appreciate the feedback.
_________________________
- Please, forgive my bad English smile

Jean-Luc

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#2068488 - 04/22/13 07:07 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Hey Jean-Luc
I'm pleased Book 1 has arrived with the CD.
Enjoy ! And that means not rushing through the lessons, some people take one month per lesson which is fine.

Another thing is that Dave plays at 120 bpm. Don't feel you have to play anywhere near that speed. JOI is to get your ears used to the jazz vocabulary, if that means playing at 72 bpm, that is fine too.

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#2085110 - 05/19/13 08:23 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
Hi Jean-luc good luck with starting joy of improv. I'm almost through the second book. Unfortunately I still have a long way to go to learning now to improvise but you making a good start...

@custard it's so awesome to see how you have progresses. Very inspiring to me. I have a lot to catch up

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#2085543 - 05/20/13 02:49 AM Re: any JOY of Improvisation students? [Re: saiman]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Hey saiman
Very nice to hear from you and congrats for nearly finishing. Yup it is a long course.

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