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#1380554 - 02/22/10 05:40 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jscomposer]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: jscomposer
I kept my Yamaha P80 for all these years because I just didn't feel like the technology really improved.

Yes, it has been something of a stasis for quite a while. Small improvements here and there, but nothing really new until lately. And PC stuff is still murdering anything in dedicated hardware.

Originally Posted By: jscomposer
Here's Pianoteq v3.5.3 beta. Keep in mind, Pianoteq allows you to alter the dynamic range. The default is 60db, and I left it that way, but it can be much higher. You can also adjust the action noise, like key release and pedal noise, but I left it default.

Thanks! Though I've already reviewed v3.5.2 (demo) - has much changed since then?
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#1380571 - 02/22/10 05:59 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
jscomposer Offline
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Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
Originally Posted By: dewster
Thanks! Though I've already reviewed v3.5.2 (demo) - has much changed since then?


I didn't see it. I checked again and still didn't see it. It's a huge thread, so I just scroll through looking for that courier font. If you can link to that post, that'd be great. Or if it's not much effort, you can run my mp3 through your program. smile Maybe the preset was different? I dunno how much they've tinkered with the model.
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#1380583 - 02/22/10 06:13 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jscomposer]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: jscomposer
I didn't see it. I checked again and still didn't see it. It's a huge thread, so I just scroll through looking for that courier font. If you can link to that post, that'd be great.

Sorry, the place is kind a wreck. You'll have to step around the pizza boxes, empty beer bottles, and full ashtrays. Whatever you do, do NOT wake up the crazy couple passed-out on the couch.

The main link to all reviews and samples is here.


Edited by dewster (02/22/10 07:25 PM)
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#1380585 - 02/22/10 06:16 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
zaba19 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 33
Originally Posted By: dewster
Could you do a short recording of the pedal down resonance again, but this time in stereo?

Here you are:

string resonance 10
key-off 10
duplex scale 10
damper noise 10
cabinet resonance off
reverb off

1. Damper resonance 0 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354431693/resonance_0.mp3
2. Damper resonance 5 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354432806/resonance_5.mp3
3. Damper resonance 10 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354433456/resonance_10.mp3
In file - first time without pedal, 2nd with pedal
4. Damper resonance 5 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354433946/resonance_more.mp3
5. Damper resonance 10 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354434112/resonance_more10.mp3
More notes only with pedal.

If you have any specific case of settings/what to play you'd like me to record just tell.

Originally Posted By: dewster
It seems like the resonance probably sounds good, but I can't really tell in the mono MP3. The mono file sounds like there is some kind of strange beating sound, but I think this is just due to the fact that it is in mono and would like to confirm that.

With damper resonance set to 10 there are strange sounds all over when playing live smile

Originally Posted By: dewster
Have you inquired with Roland as to why the extra pedal and key sounds don't seem to be there when played via MIDI? If they can't be enabled (and we don't know one way or another if they can or can't) then it could be a problem for people who want to record with it.

They are there (see my post in "Roland HP-307" thread), you just probably have to use some special data in midi file (when I record something on piano and play back everything seems to be working ok). I don't know specifics of midi format.
First 3 files were recorded to piano's internal memory and then only played back with different settings.

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#1380608 - 02/22/10 06:43 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19]
dewster Online   content
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: zaba19
1. Damper resonance 0 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354431693/resonance_0.mp3
2. Damper resonance 5 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354432806/resonance_5.mp3
3. Damper resonance 10 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354433456/resonance_10.mp3
In file - first time without pedal, 2nd with pedal

Nice, thanks!

Originally Posted By: zaba19
4. Damper resonance 5 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354433946/resonance_more.mp3
5. Damper resonance 10 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354434112/resonance_more10.mp3
More notes only with pedal.

Very nice! I notice the 4th file sounds a lot more reverby for some reason?

Originally Posted By: zaba19
If you have any specific case of settings/what to play you'd like me to record just tell.

First 3 files were recorded to piano's internal memory and then only played back with different settings.

Could you send me the MIDI file that you recorded? Perhaps I could analyze it and make a custom DPBSD just for your DP, if you are willing? You're probably regretting getting involved in this by now!

Thank you very much!
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#1380613 - 02/22/10 06:50 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
jscomposer Offline
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Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
Ah, thanks!

I think you'll wanna redo the Pianoteq one anyway. That was a demo version with some disabled notes. Mine's the full Pro version.

BTW, what do you mean in the Pianoteq review that "The hammer knock sound is obnoxiously identical for all notes?" The Pro version allows you to adjust hammer hardness, hammer noise and strike point on a per-note basis (assuming that's what you're talking about). Though I honestly can't be bothered. LOL Even in the basic version, you can adjust all those things, just globally, not for each note.

And what's "stretching?"
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#1380627 - 02/22/10 07:14 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jscomposer]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: jscomposer
I think you'll wanna redo the Pianoteq one anyway. That was a demo version with some disabled notes. Mine's the full Pro version.

OK thanks, I'll give it a listen.

Originally Posted By: jscomposer
BTW, what do you mean in the Pianoteq review that "The hammer knock sound is obnoxiously identical for all notes?" The Pro version allows you to adjust hammer hardness, hammer noise and strike point on a per-note basis (assuming that's what you're talking about). Though I honestly can't be bothered. LOL Even in the basic version, you can adjust all those things, just globally, not for each note.

I did that review early on when I wasn't accustomed to hearing hammers knocking away at me in the upper registers. Now I know it is a fairly realistic thing. I should update that review.

Originally Posted By: jscomposer
And what's "stretching?"

These things are explained fairly extensively, along with the tests, in the readme file at the sharepoint link. Here is the short answer:

2. Sample stretching is a form of sample memory compression, where samples for certain notes are replaced with pitch stretched versions of samples from other nearby or adjacent notes.
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#1381320 - 02/23/10 04:01 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
zaba19 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 33
Originally Posted By: dewster
Could you send me the MIDI file that you recorded? Perhaps I could analyze it and make a custom DPBSD just for your DP, if you are willing?

I'd love to get this file for you but there seems to be a problem.
When I record something and just play back everything works perfectly. But then I have to save it and that breaks everything. It doesnt matter if I save to internal memory or usb - can't get the missing stuff to sound... I guess only Roland can say what's going on and if they can fix it. Unless you see some magic setting in manual I could try...
Originally Posted By: dewster
You're probably regretting getting involved in this by now!

Not yet wink

Edit:
Actualy I tested more thoroughly the functions in piano designer. Here is what I can freely change when playing back a "song" saved in memory:
Lid - ok
Damper resonance - not ok, seems to be const 0
Hammer noise - ok
Duplex scale - how to test it?
String resonance - ok
Key-off resonance - ok
Damper noise - not ok (if damper resonance is off dampers dont make any noise anyway)


Edited by zaba19 (02/23/10 04:41 PM)

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#1381349 - 02/23/10 04:43 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19]
jmmec Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 86
Loc: New Mexico (yes, USA!)
Originally Posted By: zaba19
When I record something and just play back everything works perfectly. But then I have to save it and that breaks everything. It doesnt matter if I save to internal memory or usb - can't get the missing stuff to sound...


Just wondering -- page 61 of the manual talks about "Changing the External Memory Setting" (there are two values: mode1 and mode2). Maybe try changing this?
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#1381372 - 02/23/10 05:10 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jmmec]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: JMMEC
Originally Posted By: zaba19
When I record something and just play back everything works perfectly. But then I have to save it and that breaks everything. It doesnt matter if I save to internal memory or usb - can't get the missing stuff to sound...


Just wondering -- page 61 of the manual talks about "Changing the External Memory Setting" (there are two values: mode1 and mode2). Maybe try changing this?

Worth a try? But if it can't store this to internal memory then maybe the USB mode isn't at fault?

I'm looking at page 59 of the manual, "Storing Your Settings (Memory Backup)" and I wonder if you could try to set the things that don't seem to be sticking, do a memory backup, and see what that does? Page 79 lists the settings that get saved ("Parameters Stored in Memory Backup") and even the problematic ones seem to be there.

I have an email into Roland to see what they have to say about this issue.
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#1381406 - 02/23/10 06:06 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
zaba19 Offline
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Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 33
The mode doesn't matter here, files saved in internal memory are affected too.
As for saving settings in internal memory - also didn't change anything. Besides you should hear the pedal sound and damper resonance with default (5) setting anyway.

Btw the thread has gone slightly off topic I think smile Maybe we should move it to another to not make any more mess here?


Edited by zaba19 (02/23/10 06:16 PM)

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#1381434 - 02/23/10 06:47 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9163
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
R0B/dewster,

I received a reply from one of the MP programmers regarding String/Damper resonance when playing back MIDI.

He suggests checking that the 'SysCH' setting is set to 'Panel'. For reference, here is the explanation from page pp.48 of the MP5 owner's manual:



I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1381520 - 02/23/10 09:24 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
R0B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 1439
Loc: Australia
James.

Thanks for that info, but after a quick test, I found that the opposite, may be true.

I performed a factory re-set a few days ago, and have not altered any settings, and it seems the MP-5 defaults to 'SysChMode=Panel'.

I changed this setting to: 'SysChMode=Normal' and set string and damper resonance to max (10), along with Key off effect, and these effects are now being transmitted, and recorded.

Dewster.
Here is the new file, if it is of any use:

http://www.box.net/shared/kvq12s77jh

Rob
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#1381587 - 02/23/10 11:15 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: zaba19
Btw the thread has gone slightly off topic I think smile Maybe we should move it to another to not make any more mess here?

I personally don't consider this off topic as technically it's a very unusual DP, and I'm sure others are interested in any issues you're having. Maybe someone from Roland will answer our questions soon.
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#1381677 - 02/24/10 03:06 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Unfortunately there is no ROLAND James in sight... wink
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#1381679 - 02/24/10 03:12 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9163
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
'Roland Ronald', perhaps? wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1381766 - 02/24/10 08:40 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2396
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Or maybe their distributor in Warsaw could contribute? "Roland Poland"
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#1382184 - 02/24/10 06:58 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
I got a response from Roland, they said they would get the HP-307 MIDI implementation document from their corporate parent and post it here:

http://backstage.rolandus.com/product_manuals/
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#1382234 - 02/24/10 08:12 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: R0B]
dewster Online   content
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: R0B
I changed this setting to: 'SysChMode=Normal' and set string and damper resonance to max (10), along with Key off effect, and these effects are now being transmitted, and recorded.

Dewster.
Here is the new file, if it is of any use:

http://www.box.net/shared/kvq12s77jh

Thanks! I pulled it into Audition - excellent levels. Is it supposed to have sympathetic resonance? I don't see or hear it in there.
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#1382848 - 02/25/10 04:44 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Online   content
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Today I ran our Yamaha Motif Rack ES through the DPBSD gauntlet. The patch is "Full Grand". I thought I turned off the reverb, but some of it remains. No real matter I guess, it's not like it's a groundbreaking sample set in any way. With that lackluster intro, I leave you to the review. MP3 output is at the sharepoint for those interested. Readme and review files have been updated.

-----------------------------------
- Yamaha Motif Rack ES Full Grand -
-----------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.4_yamaha_motif_rack_es_full_grand.mp3
- Sonar, Echo MIA MIDI out, TRS out, Echo MIA TRS in, Audition.
PROS:
- Decent dynamic range (~37dB, vel=1:127).
- A fairly smoothly blended 3 layer sample set (spectral pan & phase displays).
- Visible layer switch @ vel=72,104.
CONS:
- Note decay rate is pretty fast (~2/3 to 1/3 Pianoteq, lo to hi).
- Obviously looped. Lower notes sound fake-wobbly, upper notes sound fake-static.
- Sample lengths are (C2:C9): 2.3,2.6,2.4,2.3,1.8,1.5,1.2,? seconds.
- Obviously stretched, low and mid group transitions fairly audible.
- Stretch distances: 2,3(x10),2,3,4,3,3,2,2,2,1,3,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,3,3,3,3,5 = 33 groups.
- Obvious velocity layer switch @ vel=104, timbre fairly static after that.
- No obvious sympathetic resonance.
- No obvious key up/down samples.
- No pedal up/down samples.
- No response to partial pedaling.
OTHER:
- Couldn't get SPDIF output to play nice with my Echo MIA card.
- MP3 levels: peak @ -1dB, noise floor @ -76dB.
- Sounds like a bit of reverb is still on.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-25
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#1382881 - 02/25/10 05:29 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Roland HP-307 Visual Results

I thought people might be interested in some of the results of our tests on the Roland HP-307. The text review was posted earlier in this thread. This is quite the groundbreaking DP when it comes to technical specs that the DPBSD tests for.

As usual, people are advised to go and play one before deciding on such a major purchase - this test doesn't tell the whole story by any means. This test can however help you weed out problematic issues with sound that might bedevil you after you have owned a particular DP for a while (usually one day after the return period runs out smile ).

That said, the HP-307 doesn't seem to possess any of the usual issues normally associated with DP sample compression, which I find very refreshing. The Roland engineering staff should be commended for such a fine accomplishment.


Spectral phase view of the note C2. It looks vaguely cyclic, but over a much longer period then is usual for DPs loops. And by that I'm not really claiming the decay cycle is a traditional loop.


Spectral pan view of the note C3. Also looks vaguely cyclic, yet somewhat random too.


Spectral pan view of the note C4. Appears vaguely like a an attack sample melded to a somewhat cyclic decay.


Spectral pan view the layer test. Very smooth timbral variation with no visible or audible layer switching.


Spectral frequency view the layer test. High frequency content increases smoothly with velocity.


Spectral pan view the stretch test. The mid notes are shown here. Notes appear random, no visible or audible stretch grouping. Lower and higher notes not shown here also appear to be (and sound) random.

These and more pix for the HP-307, as well as the text review and MP3, are posted at the sharepoint for those who are interested.
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#1382969 - 02/25/10 07:58 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
jmmec Offline
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Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 86
Loc: New Mexico (yes, USA!)
Thanks very much for your effort and analysis, dewster.
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#1383115 - 02/26/10 01:29 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
pesk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 54
Loc: Czech Republic
There is a demo of K-RD700GX1 SuperNatural piano kit:

http://forums.rolandclan.com/pub/attach/203570-My_Pleasure.mp3

Maybe this guy could make the DPBSD file for you Dewster too...

http://forums.rolandclan.com/?action=show_thread&thread=32970&fid=34&page=3


Edited by pesk (02/26/10 01:33 AM)

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#1383200 - 02/26/10 06:01 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: pesk]
zaba19 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 33
Thanks for the detailed review of HP-307 dewster, always glad to hear positive comments on a new purchase smile Especialy if it's a totaly new approach of testing based on somewhat measurable facts. Naturaly you should never buy an instrument with such price tag without trying it first but at least everyone will be encouraged to try it now.

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#1384278 - 02/27/10 08:12 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19]
bkmz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 142
Loc: Belarus
Dewster, thank you very much for this project, its extremely interesting!

Here is mp3 from my Yamaha CLP-330 (I think I'm going to replace it with HP-307 smile )

http://www.sendspace.com/file/s2gv6l
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#1384362 - 02/27/10 10:18 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz]
dewster Online   content
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: bkmz
Here is mp3 from my Yamaha CLP-330 (I think I'm going to replace it with HP-307 smile )

Thanks, I really do appreciate it!

Was the sympathetic or damper resonance set to the default setting, or turned up? If it was turned up, could you perhaps record it again with it set to the default?

Could you also tell me a bit about your hardware / software setup (soundcard, MIDI playback & recording software, etc.)?

Is it OK if I criticize it? smile
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#1384791 - 02/28/10 01:05 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
bkmz Offline
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Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 142
Loc: Belarus
dewster

Damper resonance was set to max (20), and I don't remember the default value ) Maybe 2 or 10.. Ok, I'll re-record it with 10 tomorrow.

My soundcard is Audiophile 2496, I'm using SAWStudio to record audio. CLP330 can play midi from usb flash drive, so I just connected piano' phone-out (it's little noisy but lineout level is too low) to soundcard's line-in. Ofcourse you can criticize it )
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#1384828 - 02/28/10 01:48 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: bkmz
Damper resonance was set to max (20), and I don't remember the default value ) Maybe 2 or 10.. Ok, I'll re-record it with 10 tomorrow.

My soundcard is Audiophile 2496, I'm using SAWStudio to record audio. CLP330 can play midi from usb flash drive, so I just connected piano' phone-out (it's little noisy but lineout level is too low) to soundcard's line-in. Ofcourse you can criticize it )

OK, thanks! Before you record you might want to do a factory reset, then turn off the reverb. Your MP3 levels were very good, no complaints about that anyway smile.
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#1385747 - 03/01/10 04:47 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
bkmz Offline
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Registered: 11/19/09
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Loc: Belarus
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#1385891 - 03/01/10 07:40 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: bkmz


Thanks very much to to bkmz, we now have a review of the Yamaha CLP-330, which is a Clavinova introduced in 2008. In the "prices paid" thread someone bought one for $2390 USD in Minsk, Belarus.

There are two files at the share point, one with the default sympathetic resonance, and another with it turned up to the max. I think the effect is typical for Yamaha i.e. rather poor - I don't like the default value, and turned up I find it obnoxious.

The sample lengths are fairly short, and the upper note loop lengths are way too short, you can hear the resonance repeating like an echo.

It's also stretched a bit more than I would expect for an instrument this new and of this caliber. I could actually hear the upper stretching, which is rather unusual in my experience.

During the layer tests the notes are very damped sounding. The MIDI file plays one note repeatedly, with one event right after the next, so perhaps the CLP-330 is confused as to what to do with conflicting note on/off commands. Something I should perhaps fix in the next version of the test file.

On the plus side, the layers are smoothly blended.

------------------
- Yamaha CLP-330 -
------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.4_yamaha_clp330_dr5.mp3 (sympathetic damper resonance set to default of 5)
- dp_bsd_v1.4_yamaha_clp330_max_res.mp3 (sympathetic damper resonance set to max)
- USB Flash drive (MIDI file), headphone out, Audiophile 2496, SAWStudio.
PROS:
- Huge dynamic range (~62dB, vel=1:127).
- A smoothly blended multi-layer sample set (Yamaha reports 3 layers).
- Something like layer switches barely visible @ vel=72,90 (spectral phase view).
- Responds to partial pedaling.
- Sympathetic resonance.
CONS:
- Note decay rate is somewhat fast, particularly the higher notes (~3/4 to 1/3 Pianoteq, lo to hi).
- Obviously looped.
- C8 & C9 loops too short, piano resonance sounds like quick repeated echos.
- Sample lengths are (C2:C9): 2.2,1.9,1.9,0.8,1.3,0.8,0.6 seconds.
- Loop lengthes are (C2:C9): 1.0,0.8,0.5,0.3,0.2,0.2,0.15 seconds.
- Obviously stretched, most group transitions fairly audible, even the higher ones.
- Stretch distances: 3,3,4,4,4,2,4,3,3,3,2,3,3,3,2,2,2,2,3,1,3,3,4,2,2,3,5,4,3,3 = 30 groups.
- Sympathetic resonance is unpleasant - echoy, reverby, resonant, fake.
- No obvious pedal up/down or key up samples.
OTHER:
- Notes oddly damped during the velocity layer test.
- MP3 levels: peak @ -1dB, noise floor @ -80dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-03-01
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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