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The teflon bushings are located between the hammer shank and the hammer flange. At the very least it would require the hammers, shanks and flanges to be replaced, followed by a complete regulation. That's if the whippens and other components are in good working order.

There are teflon bushings in the wippens and underlevers, too.

I learned something today...tks BDB

Apparently there are approximately 1,000 bushings in a piano action......yikes !!

I do know that at some point CBS "bought" Steinway (they purchased Lyon and Healy at the same time, harp makers). Essentially through corporate decisions, they ruined both the American Steinway and Lyon and Healy Harps. When I was with Columbia Artists Management, I know during the 70-80s the pianists with that agency specified only Hamburg Steinway pianos were acceptable on stage. Then in the middle 80s, both companies changed hands and the result in both instruments is incredible. If I was truly interested in a Steinway piano (and I would LOVE to have one), I would like at pianos dated past mid 80s. Just my HO Jim

Just curious...why is it 'obviously' out of the question?

Some times this "stuff" is hard to read.

I guy plays a 1915 B that he falls in love with twenty years ago at a church. For the rest of his life he extolls the virtues of only 1915 vintage Steinways.

A piano student's teacher has a 1929 D that charms him through his formative years. That's the only "vintage" there is that is worth it.

A guy condems two decades of Steinways (during the CBS years) because he "heard" they were bad when he has little or no experience with a reasonable sample to make a judgement.

One cannot judge a line of pianos with experience with one or two. One cannot judge a year or decade of a line of pianos with experience with one or two. Any piano that is over 30-40 years old will need to be rebuilt for any higher level use. With a new board, block, pins, strings, action parts, etc. it bears little relationship to that which was new in 1929. Rebuilders frequently do not even use Steinway parts or Steinway methods in the rebuilding.

CBS owned Steinway & Sons from 1972 - 1985. Prior to that the family had allowed stocks of raw materials to run down and machinery to age. Under CBS ownership capital investment went from $100,000 per year under the family to $1-2 million a year. CBS saved S&S from certain destruction. During the period 1972-1985 the worlds great pianists toured the U.S. stages playing on NY built D's. Hamburg built instruments were extremely rare in this country and still are today.

Teflon bushings were in the hammer flanges, whippen flanges, and underlevers on Steinway grands from 1962 - 1982. They were in the pianos ten years prior to the CBS era. They were also in every C&A piano in the U.S. during that period. The worlds great pianists toured the country playing on Teflon flange equipped (permafree) actions for twenty years with little complaint. Hundreds of thousands of concert goers during that period thrilled to the sound of the Steinway pianos on stage during that period, just as they had for decades before and decades after.

Universitiy music departments with the most demanding piano faculties do not seek out "golden era" instruments. They buy new Steinways year after year. Concert venues across the U.S. do not seek out "rebuilt" Steinways of certain vintages. They buy new ones all the time.

By 1985 CBS had been pedaling S&S for several months and morale at the factory was at a low. Money had stopped flowing and workers felt uncertain and may not have been doing their best work. The Bermingham brothers rescued S&S again from uncertainty. The ten years under their ownership saw S&S come to the dealers with strong and inovative marketing plans. Production was back to pervious levels and the factory was feeling positive again. The pianos in that era were strong and consistant. The Crown Jewel Collection pianos were debuted during this period along with several specialty artcases. The Boston line was introduced as a lower cost line for Steinway dealers to embrace as an alternative to Brand Y or K.

In 1995 S&S was sold to Selmer. Steinway Music Properties became Steinway Musical Instruments. They wanted better quality control and consistancy so they bought Kluge keys in Europe. They wanted better consistancy and quality control so they bought O.S. Kelly the American foundry that casts their plates. They retired the model O. They revived the model A. They have striven to bring closer the differences between the NY and the German products.

Every used piano should be evaluated as a stand alone entity. They need to be survayed by competant technicians who know what to look for. This information along with buyer impressions on touch and tone. A survay of comparables in that market complete the package of performance value vs price. Folks commissioning rebuilds are at the mercy of the rebuilder's skill and craft. You can play examples and see examples of his work, but you can never know what the outcome will be until it is done. A rebuilt older Steinway, a young Steinway, or a new Steinway is what it is right now and can be evaluated, purchased, and enjoyed right now.

They retired the model L NOT the O...also not sure about the "was sold to Selmer" bit...you may find it is owned by someone else....
Apart from these small details...a good summary Marty...thank you...sorry if I'm being picky...

I spent a week at the Steinway factory not long after CBS purchased the company. From what I saw your assessment of the factory's condition is, if anything, conservative. The buildings were run down. The equipment was in very poor condition. Workers were making do with machines that were upwards of 50 to 80 years old and which had not received adequate maintenance in decades. The only machinery that was in good condition had either been recently purchased or rebuilt with CBS money. In my view it is an absolute certainty that had CBS not stepped in there would be no Steinway today. Or, if the name had survived it would no longer be built in the U.S. Or Germany either, for that....

Like many, I complained (both at the time and in later years) about the miserable build quality of the instruments coming out of NY but all of that notwithstanding given some dedicated prep work (some of which ventured into the realm of rebuilding) they ended up as excellent instruments both to play and to hear. And it has only been through the oversight (and investment) of CBS and the company's subsequent owners that the build quality and performance is what it is today.




Again, like most technicians working on these instruments at the time, I initially had problems with Teflon bushings. These problems were exacerbated by the service techniques promoted by the factory. Once we discarded these and developed our own servicing tools and techniques they became quite predictable and reliable. They were the only pianos we could send anywhere and into any climate and have some reasonable assurance that they would work as intended.

Just a couple of weeks ago I serviced a Steinway built during that era and found the bushings still working quite nicely. None were abnormally tight or loose. To be sure there were numerous cosmetic problems—these were the rule of the day—but the fundamental piano is still sound and the action is still functioning quite nicely.

I too grow weary reading about how “CBS ruined Steinway.”

ddf

Marty and Del -

Thanks very much for taking the time and energy to respond to this issue. I personally have learned a tremendous amount from reading your posts. Your participation in these forums is greatly appreciated !!

Thanks for all of the great information. There is a lot to digest here. I guess the reason that I've been looking for an older one goes back to the old answer, and that is I don't have the dough for a new one. I have seen many in the pre-dep. era for sale at what I suppose is a reasonable price, and not knowing too much about them I thought that I'd seek the input from this community, and you all pulled through.

The assertion that CBS "ruined" Steinway has been repeated often and may be true in the sense that they didn't really have the love of the instrument that we all do, it was just business to them, but I do agree with Marty and Del that they most certainly did save them from destruction, and you have to give them that. Just like the guys who saved Mason & Hamlin (can't remember their names). They didn't just pour their money into it, they poured their hearts as well.

As I mentioned above, Steinway is only one of several that I've been contemplating, along with M&H, Kawai, Yamaha, and who knows what else I'll come upon that I like. I know a guy down here who owns a shop that sells mostly Falcone, bu also some Kawai, Sigura Kawai, a few Schimmel and Bosensedorers (mostly concert grands - I'm afraid to touch them).

Who knows how long it will be before I can have any funds to actually plunk down, but when I do I plan to know exactly what I want and what to look for. Right now all I can afford is one of those Fisher Price Laugh and Learn baby grand pianos.

Why doesn't NY make the C? Sounds like a conspiracy.

Anybody know anything about the Steinway double-keyboard from 1929? Being an engineer I'm just curious as to how the mechanisms work.

Thanks,
James

I don't think the C sells very well even in Europe. NY discontinued it prior to 1920 and only made it on special order through the mid 30's. Most venues will get B's for smaller recital sized halls anyway, and will get a D for the larger halls. I've never personally even seen a C outside of pictures. The C does have a D action in it.

So, in answer to your question, which vintage and size of steinway should you go for? Probably the newest and largest one you can afford - bear in mind how much room you have for the sound of the piano, they sound big.

If you can't afford a Steinway, then perhaps you should consider a new Yamaha S or Shigeru Kawai. That way you'd be getting a brand new instrument and you wouldn't have to worry about the rebuild quality.

That said, there are many rebuilders posting on this forum who produce results equal to/better than many new pianos so go and shop, and have fun.

How difficult it must be for Steinway: trying to compete with manufactures from Asian countries that pay a small fraction of documestic wages and are free from laws that protect employees and the environment; while at the same time being tied to a tradition and reputation for goods built the old fashioned way: by hand and with tradtional materials. We have to admire Steinway's commitment to quality and tradition. Their reward for this commitment is the loyal following and stellar reputation Steinway enjoys. Steinway is an American icon.

This consistency of product, for over 100 years insures a purchaser of a used Steinway of certain things: predictability of quality, components, lifespan, and consistency. Yes, I know, every piano is an individual, and the condition of 100 year old pianos vary greatly. But still, I believe the end result of a rebuild is more predictable when a rebuilder is starting off with a consistent product like a Steinway, as opposed to another piano, where the quality of the initial build may have varied over the years.

So, in my opinion, the particular year which a 20th century Steinway was manufactured is of less importance than it's current condition. The other equally important factor when dealing with an "antique" Steinway is how the piano was rebuilt or how it is intended to be rebuilt. If the piano was worked on by anyone other than Steinway NY, the variables increase greatly.

Many rebuilders profess they can improve on the Steinway design when they rebuild a Steinway. I am far from qualified to opine on that. However, I think I can safely say that once a rebuilder deviates from the original Steinway design, it is no longer a "pure" Steinway. Depending upon the degree of modification of or "improvement" to the original Steinway design, it piano can become a FrankenSteinway.

I have learned from this board that any piano over 40 or 50 years old is very, very likely in need of a major overhaul. Mostly like a new wrestplank; likely a new soundboard. Inevitably new strings, rebuilt or replaced hammer and damper actions, not to mention extensive refinishing.

Unless a person is a true piano expert (technical, mechanical as well as musical) the safest route in purchasing an old Steinway is to buy one that was rebuilt by Steinway NY, or to buy one which will be rebuilt by Steinway NY.

I chose buying one that was already rebuilt by Steinway NY for the following reasons:

1. I couldn't afford to pay Steinway NY for a rebuild of Steinway core (in believe the current cost is in the range of $30,000 to $40,000);

2. I wanted the immediate gratification of having the piano now, not waiting a year or whatever it takes for Steinway NY to do the rebuild; and

3. As every Steinway is unique in tone and touch, I wanted to know what the final product was going to be like before I committed to buy.

So, my advice (again, I'm a rank amateur compared to the professional technicans and musicans on here) is to buy an older Steinway which has been rebuilt in the last 10-20 years by Steinway NY.

FYI, last November I bought a 1903 O (in Mahagony) which was completely rebuilt by Steinway in 1990. I paid $18,000, all in.

That's my two cents anyway.

Original question - A brand new B picked out at Steinway Hall or the Steinway factory showroom.

Since the original question is really not on target for your goals I would suggest you visit every dealer you can and play every piano you can get your hands on. Visit dealers who even have a reputation for being outrageously expensive, you just don't knwo what you will find in this market.

I bought a new Yamaha C3 this past summer and I am very happy with it. It had been at the dealer for several years and they wanted to sell it and they gave me what I felt was a fair price. i think buying a piano comes down to finding a piano you like and a dealer you can work with. I would also suggest you be open minded in your search and don't settle for a piano or purchase situation you don't feel entirely comfortable with. I have read too many stories on PW of people who settled or made a quick deal and regretted it.

Again, take the time to look everywhere you possibly can and up your budget if you have to but find a piano you really like and a dealer you feel comfroatble working with.

Regards to the list,
Steve Ries

It does? Well, I suppose so in the sense that all Steinway grand pianos share a common action that varies only in action center spacing and in the placement of action brackets. Key lengths are, of course, quite different.

ddf

I still don't see it. The deterioration of the piano—it's build quality, it action and tone performance—and the factory that built them, all deteriorated under the leadership of those who purportedly “loved” the instrument. It reached bottom just before CBS purchased the company. It was only under CBS ownership and leadership that the build quality began to improve, the performance began to improve, the factory began to improve and worker moral began to improve. And yet CBS is continually blamed for ruining the company!

Given that those who were supposed to have “loved the instrument” seem to have nearly ruined both the instrument and the company and that those for whom it was all “just business” salvaged both the company and the instrument I'll take the latter any day.

ddf

If one is comparing a "newer" Steinway grand that is in need of restoration vrs. a vintage era Steinway grand,the initial build quality I believe is better in the vintage pianos. The problem is that a Steinway that is 80-100 years old is gonna be in "ruff condition and if all "original" is gonna be worn out. To say a newer Steinway piano is as for build quality superior is not true. It is a newer piano so...duh It should perform better in it's present condition. If you compare apples with apples and perform a comparabe high end restoration on both eras,the vintage piano will usually shine. We've done 400+ Steinway remanufactures and after a while a pattern developes through comparative analysis.

My opinion as for why many an institution would pursue the "new" route at Steinway Hall/factory or ? is because "Where else is the resident artist gonna go to sample 25-30 Steinway (D)s where as price is not really an issue and the performance level is. Steinway is a hand made and you can bet every one of those D(s) is different.
I don't think there are any independent rebuilders /dealers that fit that qualification,not just yet.

It is not just the build quality of the core piano that I think can be compromised but the piano itself. ex.wood quality of the keyset,acrylic sharps,harp. Take a look at the harp of a vintage Steinway vrs. a newer harp. Though an all "orginal" vintage Steinway can be worn out,one can still discern it's original build quality in it's dilapidated state. So...Newer is not always better!

Del,

I suppose that you are right, I wasn't there, you were. That's just what I've heard, and I expect that bunches of others have heard the same thing and don't know any better. But you have just set the record straight, thanks.

As far as new vs. old goes, there are two reasons why I was considering old and rebuilt/remanufactured (whoever does it): First, the money, I'd expect that they're a bit cheaper. And second, I think it was Brandon who brought it up recently, but it was said that you never know who might have played it, what history it might have, even if it was just family. New instruments don't have that, unless it was one of the C&As. The D at Steinway of Phoenix has one signed by Lang Lang.

This is all great information and advice and I'm getting a feel of what type of direction I should go.

How about this: I've heard differing opinions on "ex-players". Should I take that into consideration? And what about one that was once say mahogany but has since been ebonized?

Sylvester, I just yesterday saw an ad on Craigslist for a '78 Yamaha C3, $5500. Might be worth checking out.

I'd love to check out a Mason & Hamlin if I could find one. I've really looking for something in the 6' range, I've had a 5'r for long enough, it's time to move up. However, my wife nearly broke my legs when I bought a $50 bench grinder, so it might be a long time before I get rid of the 5' Cable.

Thanks for all of your very valued opinions,
James

James -

Did you receive my private message by e-mail?

I gave you info on where you could try out a Mason here in Phoenix.

Carey