Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 14 1 2 3 ... 13 14 >
Topic Options
#1326050 - 12/15/09 04:30 PM CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sicily - Italy

I would like to dedicate this Topic to practical Chas ET aural tuning. In my hope, this may eventually help to gain Chas beating whole.

This thread is not intended for discussing different tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency. It is meant as the long-distance “handing on” of my approach, what may substitute a personal directioning of mine for sharing Chas Theory's Temperament.

Please, do not expect regular posting. I will most appreciate any kind of feedback from aural tuners and/or music involved people, through PM or e-mail. In this Topic then, we may talk about individual progress details.


Best regards, a.c.



CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html




Edited by alfredo capurso (12/15/09 05:04 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
(ad PTG 568) Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
#1326281 - 12/15/09 11:03 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3271
Loc: Madison, WI USA
It sounds like a professional quality tuning to me, Alfredo but frankly I sorely miss the color in temperament I am used to hearing with my tunings. The octave stretching is quite beautiful however and the overall sound is very clear.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1326441 - 12/16/09 07:40 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sicily - Italy
.....................say
......................I
...............want
...................to
...........choose
....................a
the correct way is tuning a preparatory beats and frequencies curve
...................that
...................leads
.........................to
.......................Chas
......................beating
..........................whole


From mid-section to the highest tones, I need to tune mid-strings at higher pitches, so that all check intervals, in those sections, will have a "preparatory" faster beat rate progression.


Edited by alfredo capurso (12/16/09 07:46 AM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1326449 - 12/16/09 08:06 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Kent Swafford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 80
Loc: Kansas City
Quote:
From mid-section to the highest tones, I need to tune mid-strings at higher pitches, so that all check intervals, in those sections, will have a "preparatory" faster beat rate progression.


Why?

Top
#1326850 - 12/16/09 05:20 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Kent Swafford]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Bill, Kent, thank you.

Tuning a piano may be compared to forging a bow.

A piano reacts quite like a stringed bow and, like a bow, a piano must have its correct "at rest" tension.

The piano's "at rest" tension can return our favorite tuning form. Arguing from analogy, I forge a bow by considering its dynamics. Pins may then be compared to arrows.

I pull the string and stretch my bow as due, then I’m aiming my arrow (the pin) at my target (Chas form), and let my bow itself (the piano) adjust to its consequent "at rest" tension. This overall tension can draw my favorite form.

So, I never go directly for the Chas form. I’m not the one that gains it, I only determine the premises. Chas EB-ET temperament can only be the result of correct evaluation of all the factors mentioned below. This factors call for an accentuated stretch for all intervals, what I refer to as Chas Preparatory Tuning.

The many tons of mixtured forces in the piano, how the strings tension and load increase (or decrease) will effect the whole structure, together with the strings three-lengths adjustements. So, before and during my tuning, I’m there to evaluate the settling down parabola.

It is indeed like calculating an arrow’s trajectory, in consideration of wind and gravity.

a.c.


CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html






Edited by alfredo capurso (12/16/09 05:34 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1326858 - 12/16/09 05:27 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7870
Loc: France
How far from just is the piano when you start ?
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#1326883 - 12/16/09 05:53 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Olek]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Hi Kamin,

Good point, but I would not have a clue. The one you mention is one of the variables, like the person that will open us the door.

Regards, a.c.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1326891 - 12/16/09 06:03 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Kent Swafford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 80
Loc: Kansas City
Quote:
Arguing from analogy, I forge a bow by considering its dynamics.


Why do you feel the need to use flowery analogy in speaking with experienced professional tuners?

Quote:
So, I never go directly for the Chas form.


Specifically, why not?

Are you claiming that your temperament and/or stretch level of your tuning requires some special technique that must be followed in order for a professional tuner to execute your tuning with stable results?

Top
#1326915 - 12/16/09 06:34 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Kent Swafford]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Hello Kent,

we can discuss about my needs, flowers, analogies, pro tuning and special techniques here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html

Regards, a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1326934 - 12/16/09 06:54 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Kent Swafford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 80
Loc: Kansas City
Quote:
I would like to dedicate this Topic to practical Chas ET aural tuning


My questions are within the scope of this topic, are they not?

To repeat:

Why do you feel the need to use flowery analogy in speaking with experienced professional tuners?

Are you claiming that your temperament and/or stretch level of your tuning requires some special technique that must be followed in order for a professional tuner to execute your tuning with stable results?

Top
#1326967 - 12/16/09 07:36 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Kent Swafford]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Bill, Kent, you have already my reply here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html

This thread is not intended for discussing different tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency. I will most appreciate any kind of feedback from aural tuners and/or music involved people, through PM or e-mail.

In this Topic then, we may talk about individual progress details.


...........................(- (- (- (- (- (- (+) -) -) -) -) -) -)


Tuning a piano may be compared to forging a bow.

A piano reacts quite like a stringed bow and, like a bow, a piano must have its correct "at rest" tension.

The piano's "at rest" tension can return our favorite tuning form. Arguing from analogy, I forge a bow by considering its dynamics. Pins may then be compared to arrows.

I pull the string and stretch my bow as due, then I’m aiming my arrow (the pin) at my target (Chas form), and let my bow itself (the piano) adjust to its consequent "at rest" tension. This overall tension can draw my favorite form.

So, I never go directly for the Chas form. I’m not the one that gains it, I only determine the premises. Chas EB-ET temperament can only be the result of correct evaluation of all the factors mentioned below. This factors call for an accentuated stretch for all intervals, what I refer to as Chas Preparatory Tuning.

The many tons of mixtured forces in the piano, how the strings tension and load increase (or decrease) will effect the whole structure, together with the strings three-lengths adjustements. So, before and during my tuning, I’m there to evaluate the settling down parabola.

It is indeed like calculating an arrow’s trajectory, in consideration of wind and gravity.

a.c.


CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html


Edited by alfredo capurso (12/16/09 07:52 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1327028 - 12/16/09 09:01 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Kent Swafford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 80
Loc: Kansas City
Was the link you posted intended to be bogus?

Quote:
In this Topic then, we may talk about individual progress details.


Is it acceptable, then, to provide feedback stating that no progress is possible, given the lack of information forthcoming from you?

I repeat:

Are you claiming that your temperament and/or stretch level of your tuning requires some special technique that must be followed in order for a professional tuner to execute your tuning with stable results?

Will you be posting here corrected instructions for your temperament, as has been requested before?

Top
#1327156 - 12/17/09 12:25 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Kent Swafford]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7870
Loc: France
was not yet the settling bowl parabola yet used ?

But I begin to be annoyed to have to try to understand where you man want to come by with that suspense and prophetic things. Are you in a sect of some sort ?

I have also find that one " the bow when plucked, tone as a bow : boink !"

We need enthusiastic people, but please how do you want us to take you seriously ? Kens inquiry was serious, is it necessary to raise pitch on the whole piano befor meditating a Chas tuning .


Edited by Kamin (12/17/09 02:12 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#1327169 - 12/17/09 12:44 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Olek]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7870
Loc: France
About bowing, or natural settling, yes a grand, preferently without plate bushing, could settle in a natural way hence no active pin setting from the tuner, the pianist do the job, but I learned to rely not so much to that, If you think of that.


Edited by Kamin (12/17/09 12:50 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#1327261 - 12/17/09 06:27 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Olek]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Kent,

I did link my reply to you, it is still there. I apologize for the forthcoming amount of informations, it is mainly relative to my time disposal.

This thread is meant as the long-distance “handing on” of my approach. It is not intended for discussing different approaches, tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency.

Please mind, nobody here is forced into any kind of belief. I’m simply talking about my personal experience, one of many possible routes, and about my favorite tuning temperament, in my personal way. Nobody then is forced into this reading and, if it was not satisfactory, this whole thread may as well be ignored.

Anybody may have sincere reasons for sharing Theories, approaches, tunings, techniques, linguistic styles and/or forms of communication. If anyone wanted to talk about their own issues, or deepen a subject, I kindly ask he/she either to choose the most appropriate Topic (there is plenty) or to start his/her own new Topic.

For discussing about Chas EB-ET Theory, you are welcome here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html


Regards, a.c.


CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html

.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1327280 - 12/17/09 07:42 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Olek]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4945
Loc: Bradford County, PA
With the analogy of a piano being a bow and when releasing the tension the tuning is created, my question is a little different than Kamin’s:

Originally Posted By: Kamin
How far from just is the piano when you start ?


My question is: “Just how far will the piano fly when you finish?” laugh
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1327283 - 12/17/09 07:52 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Kent Swafford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 80
Loc: Kansas City
Given that the topic is named "CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING", is it not appropriate to inquire about why a preparatory tuning is needed?

Quote:
Nobody then is forced into this reading and, if it was not satisfactory, this whole thread may as well be ignored.


How, exactly, do you intend to disseminate your technique if you won't discuss it?

Repeating, do you plan to post a corrected version of your tuning instructions, as previously requested?

Quote:
For discussing about Chas EB-ET Theory, you are welcome here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html


Is it intentional that you are repeatedly posting this broken link?

Top
#1327294 - 12/17/09 08:24 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Kent Swafford]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sicily - Italy
"Given that the topic is named "CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING", is it not appropriate to inquire about why a preparatory tuning is needed?"...

Kent, you can also read about that in Chas first Topic. Sorry, for the link, yesterday it was working. May I ask you to kindly change attitude? As I have said, nobody is forced into this reading. a.c.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1328350 - 12/18/09 01:58 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sicily - Italy

........(- (- (- (o) -) -) -)

/-------------------------------//
------------------------------//

......................l
......................l
.....................a
.....................w
.....................a
.....................d
.....................n
.....................o
.....................y
.....................e
.....................b
.....................k
.....................o
.....................o
......................l
.....................a
.....................n
.....................n
.....................a
.....................w
......................I
......................y
......................a
......................s

..a.v....n.l....o.t..........l.a.......b.o
.h...e.o...y.g....o......e...s....c.....a
I........................n.e.......t.i..........r.d

considering my wheight

............................................t......i
.....................................i..................n
..............................t.............................t
.......................e.......................................h
..................s................................................i
.............y......................................................s
........a............................................................w
....m.................................................................a
I..........................................................................y


When I modify the strings load on the bridge and the soundboard, I consider the elasticity factor. The bridge and the sounboard can only adjust then under a correct distribution of the new load, only then I get my favorite tuning.

.


Edited by alfredo capurso (12/18/09 02:11 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1328379 - 12/18/09 02:37 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4945
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Alfredo:

Maybe you are talking about what is called a "pitch raise." A piano is below pitch, so it is roughly tuned a little above pitch but ends up about on pitch. Then it is given a finer tuning. Of course some parts of the piano may be lower than others and the "a little above pitch" might be more like "quite a bit above pitch."

Is this what you are doing when a piano is below pitch, or do you need to do this regardless of where the piano's pitch starts at? I mean, if there is a piano that you tune regularly, do you do this preparation tuning every time?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1328579 - 12/18/09 06:37 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: UnrightTooner]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
Huh!!! eek


Edited by byronje3 (12/18/09 06:50 PM)

Top
#1328858 - 12/19/09 05:15 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: JBE]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7870
Loc: France
Alfredo, you did not refrain on those champaign bottles, please wait a little Christmas is only in a few days !!

That said, Cheers !


Edited by Kamin (12/19/09 05:16 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#1328875 - 12/19/09 07:07 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Olek]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sicily - Italy

The champaign is still there, promise, it must have been that recent cake...fine patisserie?

Anyway...Cheers!

.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1329331 - 12/19/09 05:27 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Kent Swafford]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Even if there is no wind, an arrow draws a curved trajectory.

Even when I tune a piano very close to my favorite sound whole, say 99%, I never tune Chas on mid-strings, I’ll go for a preparatory tuning, as described above. I always consider the adjustments that will take place, possibly the infinitesimal ones too, and I do everything I can for these adjustments to take place.

If that piano was very very close to my favorite order, say 99.999%, on mid-strings it would (more or less) keep the preparatory tuning I talk about, then it may be a question of unisons. In any case, only in peculiar circumstances do I accept to “repair” my tuning, normally I restart from the beginning.

A piano may look like an ordinary piece of furniture, but in fact, due to the tons of tension it holds, we know that a piano is more an instrument that is constantly “in progress”.

My favorite sound beating-whole can only be the result of a dynamic factor, the piano structure’s adjustments. I determine the premises, and act, so that Chas may result from these premises through the piano’s settling down. Only then can I think of it as a temporary stable condition.

My tuning is causing these factors, determining the premises and driving the adjustments, expecting and wanting them in one, acting and waiting for them to release eventually my favorite sound whole.

a.c.

.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1329354 - 12/19/09 06:00 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7870
Loc: France
Pianos, I only talk to them, with a new one I ask gently if I'll have trouble with him and generally he say no and stay quiet (I've seen that in a movie where the guy comes to jail, the green line, it works).

Sometime only if I put my case near the piano it sound better !
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#1329388 - 12/19/09 06:46 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Olek]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
...and if HE'S a SHE does she slap you in the face too?

Top
#1329619 - 12/20/09 04:14 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: JBE]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7870
Loc: France
Nope, once one step on my toe, but as I wear security shoes I smiled and took my hammer, the piano was only badly in need of tuning (that makes them nervous)

Is the grand piano feminine, in English ? (never thought of that).
Here the grand is pretty much masculine, as the vertical.
Special mention to the factory joke about the 3 lid props BTW, (we are in the working class, for most, don't forget even if mention of those terms disappear from common language some years ago)





Edited by Kamin (12/20/09 06:13 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#1330494 - 12/21/09 08:12 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Olek]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4945
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Alfredo:

I understand that measurements of frequencies of single strings have been compared to a tuned unison with all three strings sounding together. A drop in pitch has been observed. But since a higher partial is measured, I am not sure if it is the fundamental frequency that changes or if it is the effective iH of the strings that change and therefore the frequency of the partials and the beat rate of the tuning intervals. This effect is an argument for tuning unisons as you go and for adding a bit of extra stretch when tuning an octave so that when the other strings of the unison are tuned the pitch will settle where it belongs.

Perhaps this is what you are experiencing rather than the piano’s tension equalizing.

In regards to tension equalization, something I have noticed when doing a preparatory pitch raise is that too much of an overshoot does not seem to matter as much as even a little bit of undershoot.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1332833 - 12/24/09 03:23 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: UnrightTooner]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7870
Loc: France
So how do we setup that CHas preparatory tuning ?

And the real thing ?
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#1335665 - 12/28/09 05:14 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Olek]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sicily - Italy
These contents were posted on Chas Topic on 5/23/09 (somehow corrected (thanks to Jeff Deutschle)):

I decided to go further my tuning sequence mainly for two reasons: firstly, because hundreds of interesting pages have and are been written about the most original and reasonable sequencies, none of them leading to a solid, reliable theory that could deal with inharmonicity, so leaving tuners in a state of uncertainty. A sequence will always be debatable, a mathematical evidence will not. Secondly, because I do not think the sequence I use is any special, nor time saving or more confortable for listening to or comparing beats. In my opinion, any sequence can eventually work, as long as you clearly know what you can be aiming at and why, and how and where you’ll get it.

The only novelty may regard the overall approach and the interrelation of SBI, i.e. 8ves, 4ths and 5ths beat curves, the research's results that opened to Chas. Chromatic 4ths are not only similar, going up the scale they get tiny little wider. Chromatic 5ths are not only similar, from low notes they first stretch down and get tiny little narrower, in between G3 and G4 they invert and stretch up toward there pure ratio (tuning centre strings), going tiny less and less narrow.

An italian collegue pointed out that SBI are much harder to evaluate than RBI. True, I would also agree in saying that RBI give you the general idea of what you are doing in the shortest lapse of time. Nevertheless in my opinion, anyone truly wanting to achieve excellence in aural tuning, would have to master the maximum control of any interval’s beat. A matter of wrist, both in the figurative and the anathomic sense, and a matter of rhythmics. In my case, SBI control took me to the 7th decimal point (section 4.5).

So what happened was, first I empirically calculated the univocal SBI and RBI chromatic proportional order, there I could notice an astonishing euphonic set that would prove how inharmonicity can be made tractable. Then I simply elaborated its essence, to finally construct an updated and comprehensive ET model, reliable in both theoretical and practical terms. Since I know all this comes from practice, simplicity and utmost exactitude, I’m disclosing Chas model with a serene soul.

In tuning, as I have learned, each sound is only temporarly tuned, since every single added sound may indicate the need to correct previously tuned notes. At the end, it is the Chas form that releases me from all doubts and only then I am absolutely certain to have done my best. Anyway, here are a few suggestions introducing and commenting the sequence.

A - do not take this tuning sequence as a must -
B - octaves, 4ths and 5ths shape the skelethon of the entire set -
C - start tuning only middle string, mute from C6 down to strings crossing, dampers up -
D - tuning single strings and unisons, get always the same moderate sound intensity -
E - octaves have a low beat-threshold and a high beat-threshold, this helps me when tuning octaves in middle register -
F - possibly, stabilize middle string frequencies by playing a Forte sound -
G – do not tire your ears, by playing louder you will not hear better nor more -

sharp or flat is referred to the note we are ment to tune. The already-tuned note is in bracket -

Step 1 – A4 – from 440.0 Hz to 442.0 Hz (concert or studio) - from 442.0 to 443.0 (for flat pianos)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 2 – (A4)-A3 - tiny little flat, just on the beating threshold
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 3 – (A3)-D4-(A4) - sharp, close to 1 beat/sec. – D4-(A4) faintly beating
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 4 – (A3)-E4 - flat
check overlaping 5ths and adjacent 4ths to set up Chas ET EB octave:
A3-E4 about 1,5 beat/3s - sensibly faster than D4-A4
E4-A4 about 2 beats/1s - sensibly faster than A3-D4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 5 – (E4)-B3 – flat - tiny little faster beat than A3-D4, sensibly slower beat than E4-A4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 6 – (B3)-F#4 - flat - little slower beat than A3-E4 since 5ths have already inverted
faster beat than D4-A4 evaluate M6 A3-F#4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 7 – (F#4)-C#4 – flat - faster beat than E4-B3, sensibly slower beat than E4-A4
evaluate two M3’s progression + one M6
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 8 – (C#4)-G#4 – flat - slower beat than B3-F#4, tiny little faster than D4-A4
evaluate three M3’s progression + two M6’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 9 – (G#4)-D#4 – flat - tiny little slower beat than E4-(A4), faster than F#4-C#4
evaluate four M3’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 10 – (D#4)-A#3 – flat - tiny little faster beat than A3-D4, tiny little slower than E4-B3
evaluate five M3’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 11 – (A#3)-F4 – flat - tiny little slower beat than A3-E4,
tiny little faster beat than B3-F#4
evaluate seven M3’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So far, apart from A3-D4, we have stretched "flat" - now we’ll stretch "sharp"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 12 – (D4)-G4 – sharp - tiny little slower beat than G#4-D#4, faster beat than F#4-C#4
evaluate eight M3’s progression + three M6’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 13 – (G4)-C4 - sharp - tiny little slower beat than B3-F#4,
tiny little faster beat than C#4-G#4 evaluate nine M3’s progression + four M6’s progression
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Beats curves are meant to be tuned temporarly. While you are tuning, bear all (few) doubts in mind.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 14 – (A#3)-A#4 – sharp - increase octaves beat’s speed very slowly – 5ths go very, very slowly towards pure – F4-A#4 tiny little faster beat than D4-A4, as for the next 4ths
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the octave beat threshold, first signs of beating come to us in a shorter and shorter lapse of time, this helps to S-shape octaves stretch
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 15 – (B3)-B4 - sharp - increase octaves beats rate very, very slowly - 5ths towards pure
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 16 – (C4)-C5 - sharp - increase octaves beats rate very slowly - 5ths towards pure
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 17 – (C#4)-C#5 - sharp - increase octaves beats rate very slowly – 5ths start transiting pure - evaluate one M10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 18 – (D4)-D5 - sharp - increase octaves beats rate very slowly – 5ths are transiting pure - evaluate M10’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 19 – (D#4)-D#5 - sharp - increase octaves beats speed very slowly – 5ths are transiting pure - evaluate M10’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 20 – (E4)-E5 - sharp - increase octaves beats speed very slowly –
5ths have transited pure, evaluate M10’s progression –
chromatic M12s, like A3-E5 must be constant and temporarly tuned pure (on normally out of tune pianos) -
Step 21 – (F4)-F5 – sharp
Step 22 – (F#4)-F#5 – sharp
Step 23 – (G4)-G5 – sharp
Step 24 – (G#4)-G#5 – sharp
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 25 – A4-A5 – double octaves like A3-A5 must be constant and temporarly beat with a rate of about 3b/2s, or 3/2 bps
increase octaves beats speed very slowly –
5ths are very slowly widening, evaluate M10’s progression –
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 26 – (A#4)-A#5 – sharp - check 10ths, pure 12ths, wide 15ths, let 5ths go slowly wider
Step 27 – (B4)-B5 – sharp - check 10ths, pure 12ths, wide 15ths, let 5ths go slowly wider
Step 28 – (C5)-C6 – sharp - check 10ths, pure 12ths, wide 15ths, let 5ths go slowly wider
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go back down for G#3 to lower notes using SBI, RBI and EB, never lose control of beats progressions for all intervals. 5ths will get slower, so will 4ths. Improve A#4 with F#3 and D#3. Unison all these registers from your left hand moving right, except last muted string on C6, then go up to higher notes. Chas delta-wide 15ths and delta-narrow 12ths beat’s rate is about 1b/3s or 1/3 bps.

Tune as you know, middle string first, then unison previous note’s right string (C6), next left (C#6), tune next middle (D6), unison previous right (C#6), next left, tune next middle and so on, checking also M17ths progression. While tuning, do not stop evaluating strings and sound-board rigidity/elasticity, so you’ll be able to conveniently tune centre strings.

a.c.

.


Edited by alfredo capurso (12/28/09 05:16 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
Page 1 of 14 1 2 3 ... 13 14 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
8 Live Ragtime Piano Players on the Cape!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
This is punny
by Tango Vic
10/19/14 11:58 PM
A brisk Fall day, a room to myself, and a large piano.
by TwoSnowflakes
10/19/14 08:07 PM
Mixer for live-use
by Auver
10/19/14 06:24 PM
Question on Kawai CA65 functions
by ColinDS
10/19/14 04:30 PM
40 year old self-taught in love with Bach - What to do?
by pinkfloydhomer
10/19/14 04:23 PM
Who's Online
84 registered (Auntie Lynn, accordeur, Anticlock, AmateurBob, angga888, 25 invisible), 1245 Guests and 19 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76591 Members
42 Forums
158373 Topics
2325546 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission