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You're so kind Knotty. I thought it sucked big time. Aside from time problems, I was cramming too many notes. More space. I actually got quite frustrated after doing that. It shows that the struggle to learn Jazz continues. Just when you think you get it, you don't. .

At least the good news is that picking out notes was not the issue...

Thanks for the support. I appreciate it man.

I also thought it was wonderful, and I made a comment on the discussion thread. I would be very happy if one day I were able to play like that.

TLT, again thank you.

I wonder what it is. To my ears, I think it sounds really bad. This is interesting because it may be a development phase. Maybe I'm hearing myself now as pros would hear me -- which translates to "you suck!"

But I always say, when you can hear your faults, the faults will disappear. So I have something to look forward to.

Now I'm not unhappy with the actual note choices. It's all about rhythm/time, swing, form, LH. It's a wall I'm not able to overcome right now. It's not even about playing speed anymore.

Anyone out there with the same problems? If so share. As I'm a little discouraged right now.

If it's any help at all, I *always* think my own playing is pretty dreadful. It's a chronic thing. Like kids that are pretty but are convinced they are ugly, or anorexics who think they are fat. So, I sort of realise its just my way of trying to get better, and get on with it.

Also, if you are performing, say, for an audience, and you make a flaw, you make it and it's over. Gone. Either they heard it or they didn't. Maybe they care, maybe they don't. But if you record, then the flaw is there each and every time you listen. And it doesn't get better. And they you can beat yourself up thinking, well, why didn't I just record again? But when I do that, I make another mistake in a different place.

Recording, as we do here, sets the bar high.

Quite true. But often I don't even care what people think of my playing. As you know, Jazz is considered esoteric anyway -- too many notes, too much dissonance -- that kind of thing. So I expect that. In recitals, many don't even bother to listen. I don't take it personally.

I'm not focused on that as much as the actual faults. You see, my teacher is quick to point out my flaws to me (in a nice way of course), so I know I'm not imagining it.

Last night, I had the the drum track set on 220bpm and then I just improvised over that. I lost the form so many times that I thought I was hopeless.

Jazzwee,

I may have some advice for you. It's on page 273 bullet 4 of metaphors for the musicians.

Seriously, first of all, I think you took this difficult tune at a very challenging tempo. As you speed things up, space gets narrower, that's just tempo, but it's there. To me, your phrasing was much better than it was a few months ago. I mean I could clearly hear a beginning and an end to each phrase.
I think your flow was very good, and your swing is actually much improved. At time I heard Chick, at times Bill. Your influence is getting more clear cut now.

Your left hand was smooth. In fact, the only part that bothered me was the first bar, I don't care for the call / response effect. Works well on AL, not so much on Stella. I would have like void just as much. Maybe the way I hear the tune. But as early as the 2nd bar, you start really burning. Your left hand btw was nice and light. Your touch has gotten better. You started including a lot more feeling in your playing as well, softer moments, higher moments.

Clearly a success.
Take care.

Love the analysis Knotty! I hated the beginning. What I was planning on doing was play rubato at first then go to swing. But I couldn't make up my mind when and my indecision was affecting everything, from tempo to form. I had that same indecision at the end and really messed me up. Then in the middle, I could hear my LH wavering in the tempo. Hated that. Some sixteenth lines sounded forced. Many lines needed to be broken up because they crossed the barline but didn't resolve.

If I just stuck to swing, the tempo itself was not fast. I tried playing it again just a moment ago and just played it in swing at 150bpm. And even with sixteenths (but not too much) it sounded much better. So looking back, it was the rubato thing that really ruined it. There's no count at the beginning so the tempo was no clearly established in my head.

I'm going play this for my teacher in a couple of days and we'll see what he says.

BTW - after continuously working on Chick stuff (Matrix) daily, I'm finding that some of the moves are starting to show up in my playing. Just today, I was comfortable doing sudden half-step up modulations. Keys like B and F# are beginning to feel like Bb and Eb. I'm supposed to play Matrix again at my lesson so we shall see. It's also a technique builder and maybe it will in fact build a little bit of a Chick sound. Glad you even noticed (not consciously done).

Hi Jazzwee,

Time for an update.

I have been working from Bert Ligon's book "Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony".

I recorded a short sample of an exercise. You will hear me singing those "Doo Bah's" in the background. I have the metronome set to 60 clicking on 2 and 4. Ligon's book emphasizes those chord tones on down beats.

http://www.box.net/shared/seq2b62tdi

I need feedback, please.

Barb

Barb, my box.net is not popping up so bear with me...I haven't listened to it yet.

Custard Apple -- if you don't mind, I'll resume answering your question on 2 & 4 here.



I was concerned about your quote since I wasn't sure you understood what I said here:



2 & 4 is a way of setting a metronome. Although it influences swing (by not focusing on Beat 1), it is not swing by itself. So I'm not sure what you mean by unlearning the 1 & 3 way. It may not matter, as long as you put accents on those upbeats...

Back to you Barb, Box net working now.

First of all with the improved legato, the swing sounds better! What we've talked about constantly and I harp upon is the swing ratio, which still leans to the extreme side of the spectrum. The 2:1 ratio or triplet feel.

From listening and even tracking the swing of guys like Wynton Kelly on a Wave spectrum, I'm seeing that the ratio of hard swingers go from 1.5:1 to the straight swingers at near 1:1. Yet beginners often hover at 2:1, which is not the range where authentic swing lies.

I've often wondered why this was and I think I have a theory. My theory is that beginners will play at too slow a tempo to do swing. Often starting at 100bpm.

When I first started, I focused on the 120-150bpm area so maybe that prevented me from doing the 2:1 (which some people refer to as "hokey swing" or I just refer to as triplet feel). If you play more at 150bpm even with just short eighth note phrases, it's actually pretty hard to maintain 2:1. The higher you go, it requires quite a bit of technique to play like that. But like I said, a more realistic swing ratio is 1.5:1 or less and focus on upbeat accents more.

At 100 bpm, it's close to ballad tempo. So jazz players will lean towards triplet eighths and sixteenths already. If you swung at this tempo, I realize it will actually be close to 2:1. But that is rarely done. It doesn't sound good. (Lawrence Welk would probably do it though...).

So I think experience at bringing up swing to the 150bpm tempo will tend to solve a lot of overswinging issues. That is my theory.

My other suggestion is to play this completely straight and use upbeat accents only (really make the accent differences extreme in upbeat vs downbeat).

Once you know where it sounds straight, and the other extreme, strive to play in the middle area of the range. I kid you not that my teacher would actually stop me from doing an extreme swing, even at the Bill Evans ratio (which is probably in the 1.5:1 range when he does it).

I'm just passing the same advice I got. Concentrate on upbeat accents and straighten it more.

BTW - since I hear reference often to our friend 7notemode's video on swing, let me just post a Youtube of him playing How High the Moon at a fairly slow tempo and with lots of eighth notes.

http://www.youtube.com/user/7notemode?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/5/K3JTH458b1k

He does exactly what I say here. His swing is natural and leans towards the straighter side of things and heavy on upbeat accents. In fact listen to 7notemode at 3:09, it is that same very heavy upbeat accent with straight eights (dragged) that I refer to in Herbie Hancock's playing. That's what's often done to emphasize the swing, rather than a change in the ratio itself.

I'm just making sure no one misunderstands or assumes I'm saying anything differently than 7Notemode.

I probably play a straighter swing than 7notemode generally, only because I'm more into Modern Jazz. But that difference is slight.

Jazzwee - Thank you for the excellent feedback. Yes, I need to sneak up that metronome a bit at a time. And get those accents back in.

I agree in that I don't want to sound like Lawrence Welk. AARRGGGHHHH!!!!!

7notemodes' Youtube link is wonderful. That is how I want to sound.

Thank you

I woke up brave this morning. I decided to not inch up the speed bit by bit. I set my Band in a Box group to 150 bpm. I am playing right hand only. I had to take out the left hand at this speed.

What do your ears hear? I am concentrating on those accents. Is the ratio at 1:1? I was mouthing the "Doo Bah" sounds hoping to NOT be at 1:1. I fear I may have lost some legato in the process. This is a never ending battle!

http://www.box.net/shared/p15cpf9grj

Thank you for your help.

Barb

Barb, I think my theory is RIGHT!

That's a whole different feel there and it's MUCH MUCH BETTER! The ratio is closer to the desirable range. You can go a little either way from here but you've hit the sweet spot. Pretty amazing actually. This is something I'll remember forever: "Beginners -- don't swing at too slow a tempo".

Yes, more accents and more legato. Legato is harder at this tempo but you need it to be very solid until the 200bpm range when it's very hard to do. Listen to that 7notemode section I highlighted at 3:09 earlier. Practice that kind of extreme level of extreme accent ranges. As TLT noted for us, it's not just that you accent the upbeat, you need to soften the downbeat. The more extreme the accent differences, the higher the swing feel.

BTW your recording is not 1:1 but it's close to it. There's still swing and it will be enhanced with added accents. With the accents it will feel like a harder swing. If you want to really feel a harder swing, switch to maybe 135bpm. Really, it's the tempo that decides the swing. There's a natural limit to how you can do that long-short thing. So that's how swing would normally be decided. A Duke Ellington type of playing would be in that 135bpm range.

I was just listening to Wynton Kelly on the radio earlier and he was playing pretty straight. You know he can swing pretty hard. But at the faster tempos, you have to straighten out. That's expected.


Great work and understanding!

Thanks Jazzwee. I just love being part of a scientific experiment. Glad I proved your theory works.

to you!

Now I just have to get my slow ballad playing fingers used to playing at brisker tempos.

The journey happily continues.

Ahh slow tempos. Tricky, easy to play to much.
Thought I could share a tune (Beatrice by Sam Rivers) on the subject of playing slow, it's from a dinner gig I did with my trio (test-running a new basist). Get it here.

Nice Chris! It's great to finally hear you play. This is the first I think. I loved it. It's almost what I expected considering your influences.

BTW - you proved my point again. Here you are at a slow tempo and not playing eighth notes - those were triplet eights or sixteenths, right?

Thank you, and thanks for listening.

Hmmm, yes I believe you're correct. Maybe some eighth notes when i play the melody.
I don't really keep check of my playing.
(though I am forcing myself to listen to the whole gig this night, digging the good notes as well as going arrrggghhh over the bum notes (or rather; the appropriate ones).
It's important to dig the good ones. Never forget that.

Chris – Welcome back. I enjoyed listening to your dinner gig music. I wish I could have been there to hear you play live.

Jazzwee – thanks for reminding me about Wynton Kelly. I decided to listen to some of his solos that I had downloaded a while back. I fell in love with one and spent the greater part of Tuesday transcribing the first 28 seconds of his solo (12 measures worth.)

I spent a good deal of time yesterday working up the first five measures. I finally memorized it today and recorded it with BIAB at 100 bpm.

A few seconds after you hear me play you will hear Wynton playing the same 5 measures. I have a long way to go here in trying to sound like him. OH WOW! He can really, really swing. He sounds so relaxed. He is my new hero.

I do need a tempo check. Do you think he and I are at the same speed?

http://www.box.net/shared/4fccbuvay8