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#1429412 - 05/04/10 07:14 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Jake Jackson]
FogAudio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 187
Loc: FL
Hi Jake,

1-bit recording has been marching into obscurity for the last 4-5 years or so. Technically it has many advantages over PCM but also a few disadvantages (and those are hard to overcome).

You can google Super Audio CD (SACD) or Direct Stream Digital (DSD) for more on its short-lived history.

Regards,
Ryan


Edited by FogAudio (05/04/10 07:37 AM)
Edit Reason: a bit too superfluous

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#1429485 - 05/04/10 10:36 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Mark R.]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1640
Loc: Colorado
Hey GP - excellent challenge, and good music!!

Since I am learning to tune both temperaments with respectable consistency - this is a good little test, here is what I perceive while making my way to work on the train.

Glen

Out of Africa
No 1 EBiii
No 2 ET

Jazz Temperament
Test 1 ET
Test 2 EBiii

Il Postino
No 1 EBiii
No 2 ET
_________________________


March piano audio
https://app.box.com/s/evl3yyp1kj52ve8l069u


A Bit of YouTube

PTG Associate Member

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#1429580 - 05/04/10 02:32 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: DoelKees]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1651
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
After some more listening I think I can hear a difference in the other 2 pieces. I think:

Out of Africa 1 is ET, 2 is EBVT.
Jazz piece 1 EBVT, 2 ET.
(Still think Il Postino 1 ET 2 EBVT.)

I don't really hear any tuning, the pieces I think are EBVT sound a little warmer to me.

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#1429632 - 05/04/10 04:56 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Hi everybody, I've been busy doing other vaguely related stuff (arranging and playing grin )

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Nick Mauel
Bill,

I do have a question/observation and I wondered if it was accurate, and thought it might benefit others on this thread; so I will post it here rather than send to you as a private message.

In establishing the framework in EBVT III of the 4 rapidly beating intervals, it is obviously very important to nail the 6 beats per second, especially because you are going to match this beat rate to the other intervals.

As I am doing this aurally and getting comfortable with this tuning, there obviously has been some slight variation in my results. It has occured to me that if my beat rate is not quite as fast as the true 6 bps, I will be on the edge of dissonance in some chords. And conversely, if I am slightly more than 6 bps, it will just not sound as special, more like ET. I got this clue from the inverted thirds (relative to ET) sounding either too inverted or not enough, when of course they need to be 'just right'. Does this make any sense?

Thanks,

Nick


I am getting behind with all of this because of what happened on Monday but the good news is that I will be getting a brand new car within a few days.

Yes, Nick, you are right about what you observe. Obviously, you can't know for sure whether one of your intervals is really 6.000000 beats per second or 5.9736542 or 6.000123 but the mathematical calculations and Jason Kanter's graphs are based on exactly 6.0 beats per second.

I actually wrote an 18th Century style well temperament with basically the same sequence except that you start with 4 equal beating intervals each at 4 beats per second. You could do the same with 5 beats per second. Each would have its own sound but as you have guessed, the slower those first 4 intervals beat, the harsher (more dissonant) the wider M3s will be.

If you had 4 starting intervals at 7 beats per second and followed the same scheme, you would end up with a quasi equal temperament that would not have that special magic that the EBVT or EBVT III has. You do get the best results in nailing the initial 6 beats per second and subsequently getting all other equal beating intervals as equal beating as possible. The two pure intervals need to be very pure and not wide and also not having any hint of narrowness.

The outer octaves that equalize octaves and 5ths and double octaves and octave-5ths also contribute to the overall purity of the piano sound.


Nick and Bill, this is very much in line with my own findings - glad to find it confirmed here!
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1429640 - 05/04/10 05:11 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Inlanding]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Inlanding
I was just thinking about this very subject, Bill - still trying to get it right.

When I am setting the EBVT III temperament, no matter how close I get to 6bps on the key intervals, F#-A#, C#-F, and D#-G are wide, making the common keys of Ab, Fmin, Db, Bbmin, Eb, and Ebmin, Cmin sound somewhat harsh - and of course it gets worse the more I stretch the octaves, etc. If I go less than what I calculate as 6bps, it messes with the "pipe-organ" effect when playing arpeggios in the keys of C, G, and F...

Any idea what I am doing wrong? I've been using a metronome set at 120 and count 3bps on those key intervals to get them set. Also, I go back and ensure the pure intervals are as close as I can get them that way.

Glen


Glen, - I'm glad you bring this up. Here are the results of my own empirical research on the subject smile :

F#-A# easily gets a bit too wide if you favor the fifth instead of placing F#3 truly equal-beating (F#3-B3/F#3-C#4). Sometimes the 6:4 fools me into easing the tempering of the fifth, and that gives me this result.

C#4-F4 gets a bit too wide if the F3-F4 is larger than 4:2. Combine this with stretching generously in placing C#2, and you'll get a very fast 10th. I have chosen to error towards the narrow side if anything - that is, my F3-F4 is **absolutely not** wider than 4:2.

D#4-G4 gets a bit too wide if you stretch G4 a little too much in favoring the fifth C4-G4. This will also have you make a bigger compromise in the D4-D5 octave once you get up there. This balance (C4-G4-D5 vs D4-D5) is one of the hardest choices to make, just as Bill stated in his instructions to me some close to six months ago.
Again, combine this with a largely stretched D#3 and you'll have a very fast 10th.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1429647 - 05/04/10 05:25 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

Here is the opening number from the 2002 Jazz concert. It is a 14 1/2 minute file but there is a full minute of silence before the piano plays, so you can skip ahead 1 minute and then you will hear the music. The piano plays solo first and the alto saxophone follows. Then the piano has a solo. The engineering is unfortunately badly balanced with the Bass being louder than anything else.

It is a familiar tune but I can't think of the name of it at the moment.

http://www.box.net/shared/2sb4244s7b


Wild piano player... suddenly I miss the US wink Who is it?
The tune is "On Green Dolphin Street"
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1429672 - 05/04/10 05:57 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: pppat]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: pppat

Wild piano player... suddenly I miss the US wink Who is it?
The tune is "On Green Dolphin Street"


The pianist is James Williams but he died a few years after the recording was made.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1429697 - 05/04/10 06:25 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Ah, I remember him from my NY days. His work with bass player Christian McBride is great!
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1429701 - 05/04/10 06:37 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: FogAudio]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: FogAudio
Hi Jake,

1-bit recording has been marching into obscurity for the last 4-5 years or so. Technically it has many advantages over PCM but also a few disadvantages (and those are hard to overcome).

You can google Super Audio CD (SACD) or Direct Stream Digital (DSD) for more on its short-lived history.

Regards,
Ryan


Jake and GP,
what FogAudio says.

The idea is good, and it has many advantages over especially the cd standard 16-bit/44.1 kHz). The 64x oversampling splits the opinion, though, as do the reluctance to introduce yet another standard on the market.

When I mix pre-masters for CD I always send them in 24-bit or 32-bit float, because I know the receiver at the mastering plant can deal with them comfortably.

That said, it might be a very nice solution for a recording system that fits your needs, GP!



Edited by pppat (05/04/10 06:41 PM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1429721 - 05/04/10 07:42 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Inlanding]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Inlanding

It's just that in the context of music, the main theme of Pathetique's second movement (Ab) is largely thirds and other intervals. Brahms Intermezzo 117 No 2 (Db) uses many two note intervals, not just thirds.

Thanks in advance,
Glen


I noticed when I tried these chords that the G#2-C4 M10 seemed to beat exactly the same as the F3-A3 M3, 6 beats per second. Looking at Jason Kanter's graph, the G#3-C4 beats at 10.1 beats per second. That is not all that fast. The M10 would be half that amount and perhaps because of octave stretching, it very closely approximates that "magic" 6 beats per second.

Again, considering that Beethoven would probably have used a stronger temperament, he chose the key of A-flat for the "warble" it has. Herr Stopper once commented about that, like the voice of a warbly mezzo soprano in a church choir. That is the sound Beethoven wanted. ET takes it away, plain and simple.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1429796 - 05/04/10 11:45 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
FogAudio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 187
Loc: FL
Hey GPM,

My guess for EBVT III:

1. "Il Postino" Temperament test No.1

2. "Out of Africa" Temperament test No.2

Regards,
Ryan

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#1429797 - 05/04/10 11:52 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3841
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Inlanding

It's just that in the context of music, the main theme of Pathetique's second movement (Ab) is largely thirds and other intervals. Brahms Intermezzo 117 No 2 (Db) uses many two note intervals, not just thirds.

Thanks in advance,
Glen


I noticed when I tried these chords that the G#2-C4 M10 seemed to beat exactly the same as the F3-A3 M3, 6 beats per second. Looking at Jason Kanter's graph, the G#3-C4 beats at 10.1 beats per second. That is not all that fast. The M10 would be half that amount and perhaps because of octave stretching, it very closely approximates that "magic" 6 beats per second.

Again, considering that Beethoven would probably have used a stronger temperament, he chose the key of A-flat for the "warble" it has. Herr Stopper once commented about that, like the voice of a warbly mezzo soprano in a church choir. That is the sound Beethoven wanted. ET takes it away, plain and simple.


Bill,

This is fascinating to hear you say this--because I learned when practicing this tune yesterday (Beethoven, Pathetique, movement 2) that if I slowed down my playing, and cooperated with the "beats"--the warbles as you call them--actually timed the tempo to play with them, everything inside of me calmed down. Plus, I heard a whistful whisssh in the beating of the chords that was behind the notes being played, which painted a picture of a dim memory. When that happend, I figured I understood what Beethoven was after. Problem solved, as far as I'm concerned! grin

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1429798 - 05/04/10 11:58 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
FogAudio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 187
Loc: FL
My guess is EBVT III on this one?

1. Jazz Temperament Test-No.1

I found this one harder than the other examples (or at least that is to say, I found the quick chord progressions of this particular piece harder to make a distinction than the other 2).

Also, GPM I'm curious if you are using a preamp with these recordings or using the Korg's mic inputs?

Really nice recordings and pieces! Also, I see that those Avenson mics are sold by Mercenary Audio. I trust most things sold by those guys (they seem fanatical about high-end). IIRC, that is how I heard about FMR's RNC!

Regards,
Ryan

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#1429929 - 05/05/10 09:52 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: pppat]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1640
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: pppat

Glen, - I'm glad you bring this up. Here are the results of my own empirical research on the subject smile :

F#-A# easily gets a bit too wide if you favor the fifth instead of placing F#3 truly equal-beating (F#3-B3/F#3-C#4). Sometimes the 6:4 fools me into easing the tempering of the fifth, and that gives me this result.

C#4-F4 gets a bit too wide if the F3-F4 is larger than 4:2. Combine this with stretching generously in placing C#2, and you'll get a very fast 10th. I have chosen to error towards the narrow side if anything - that is, my F3-F4 is **absolutely not** wider than 4:2.

D#4-G4 gets a bit too wide if you stretch G4 a little too much in favoring the fifth C4-G4. This will also have you make a bigger compromise in the D4-D5 octave once you get up there. This balance (C4-G4-D5 vs D4-D5) is one of the hardest choices to make, just as Bill stated in his instructions to me some close to six months ago.
Again, combine this with a largely stretched D#3 and you'll have a very fast 10th.


Thanks, Patrick and Bill~~

This is a great starting point and most likely where the source of it is! I've gotten in the habit of stretching early on - from what you describe is that I need to do less of that.

My own piano is tuned EBiii for over a month with daily playing and it's settled in quite nicely with only having to shore up a few unisons. Follow-ups with the two folks that now play their pianos in EBiii indicate they are happy with their tunings. I follow-up after a couple of weeks.

It's interesting to note how pianos fall out of tune over time and/or react to the atmosphere (temp/humidity) and its affect on the piano's voice.

Wood, felt, and steel - what a combo!

Glen

_________________________


March piano audio
https://app.box.com/s/evl3yyp1kj52ve8l069u


A Bit of YouTube

PTG Associate Member

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#1429998 - 05/05/10 12:31 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Bill,

I know this is off-topic, but I'm very sorry to hear about your car accident. I hope you're ok, even if the car isn't. (And that the accident won't prevent further explorations in EBVT III...)

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#1430013 - 05/05/10 12:57 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Jake Jackson]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2305
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Thanks for all your posts regarding the temperament test. Will let this go a bit longer before compiling the results.

Ryan, I used the built-in mic preamps of the Korg. I should also add that there was no processing done to these recordings...no reverb, no manipulation of the original recording, other than a normalization of the sound levels and the addition of dither, using the Korg Audiogate software for those.



Edited by grandpianoman (05/05/10 01:14 PM)

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#1430775 - 05/06/10 03:37 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
GP,

I'd be more than willing to take up the blindfold challenge, but I guess I have an unfair advantage (since you listed the mics and preamps earlier... wink )

I can PM you my answers, if you'd like to confirm or (possibly) put a final nail in my sound engineer's coffin grin
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1430834 - 05/06/10 04:34 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: pppat]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2305
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi Patrick,

LOL....you do indeed have that advantage wink I don't think I will be putting any nails in your coffin any time soon! PM me and I will send the key to you. smile

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#1430869 - 05/06/10 05:15 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1640
Loc: Colorado
Tap, tap, tap...enquiring minds want to know wink

I have a few nails left, but maybe no more after this little test.

Glen
_________________________


March piano audio
https://app.box.com/s/evl3yyp1kj52ve8l069u


A Bit of YouTube

PTG Associate Member

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#1430922 - 05/06/10 06:45 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Jake Jackson]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Jake Jackson
Bill,

I know this is off-topic, but I'm very sorry to hear about your car accident. I hope you're ok, even if the car isn't. (And that the accident won't prevent further explorations in EBVT III...)


Thanks for your concern Jake, the whole experience as not been pleasant. I am still suffering some pain but I look at things on the positive side: no broken bones or bleeding and I can still get some work done. I will also get a brand new car tomorrow. It will look like this:

http://www.box.net/shared/gans7zqucv
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1430970 - 05/06/10 07:30 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1640
Loc: Colorado
Wow, Bill. I had no idea - it is not off topic at all. I wish you a full recovery.

Glen
_________________________


March piano audio
https://app.box.com/s/evl3yyp1kj52ve8l069u


A Bit of YouTube

PTG Associate Member

Top
#1431026 - 05/06/10 08:51 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Inlanding]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Atlanta, GA
(And what was it that happened, exactly--who hit you? Or did I miss another post somewhere else that had details you may not want to go into again?)

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#1431027 - 05/06/10 08:54 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
It looks to me like GP's challenge, "which one is which" seemed to scare away all of those who had only something negative to say about the EBVT III. If the EBVT III is as bad as several of you have claimed (and all of you know who you are), then it should be perfectly evident to you which recording is which and a vivid description as to why. I actually don't expect any of those people to respond. If the EBVT III is as unacceptable as it has been described, then a difference in microphones or any other minor difference should not matter at all.

If the EBVT III doesn't work, it doesn't work. If the piano had been tuned in 1/4 comma meantone, it wouldn't work for all of today's music. So, go ahead, all of you who said the EBVT III wouldn't, shouldn't and couldn't work because it is uneven, unbalanced, inappropriate, like a piano that had not been tuned in many years, one that someone would be calling you to do something about, made you cringe, made the piano professor wince and frown, made your skin crawl, gave you a headache, made you vomit, made you tear your hair out, caused you to write a letter to the PTG Home Office to demand that I be kicked out of PTG for "going around doing this and imposing some kind of unethical experiment on an unwitting public", all of you who came up with any such condemnations, go ahead and prove that you actually knew what you were talking about. I double dare you to do it and come out being 100% correct. It won't happen because I never believed a word of what any of you said and I know that you cannot back up what you have said. You can't really tell, can you?

We'll wait a few days for all of you to actually prove that you can reliably tell the difference and describe what it is about the EBVT III that offends you as compared to ET. I don't expect any of you to actually respond because I know already that the challenge is beyond your perception, even as a dedicated and life long piano technician. You are not sure. You couldn't risk being made the fool because you guessed incorrectly, so you abstain.

That shall therefore be your reason to further abstain from and negative comments in this thread. We who are enjoying the pursuit of what we believe to be state of the art innovation in tuning concepts do not need to read comments from people who have already dismissed any such ideas purely on pre-conceived notions or beliefs.

To those who have been seeking perfection in modern piano tuning merely by manipulating the amount of stretch in the octaves but still insisting on ET only, may I suggest that you have been "looking for love in all the wrong places".

The idea that tuning theory reached its pinnacle with ET was popular in the late 20th Century. ET was the ultimate. The more perfected it could be, the better the music would be. At the same time people were espousing that view, others were saying, "I don't think so". I was among them.

So, now in 2010, the May issue of the PTG Journal has two important and pages-long articles that say essentially that we have not yet found any ultimate solution at all. We haven't found the ultimate design for a piano and we haven't found the ultimate tuning for the piano.

If you want a real challenge, it will not be how to stretch so much or not stretch so much ET but how you can give each key signature its own definition and character yet still have the piano be able to perform all music the way that only ET is thought of as able to do. I have done that with the EBVT III. Can you do better? If you can, I will be tuning your temperament and octave stretching style on the pianos I service as soon as you can write it out.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1431064 - 05/06/10 09:31 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2305
Loc: Portland, Oregon
To all...please take a brief respite in the rigors of this temperament test, and take a listen to this piece in EBVT III. It's not done that often. In EBVT III, it has a magical quality to it. At the very end are several arpeggios that sound beautiful in this temperament...in fact, the whole piece is quite beautiful in EBVT III! smile I don't have it in ET. frown

Ampico roll "Music of the Spheres" from "Winterreigen" Opus 13, composed by Ernst von Dohnanyi in 1905, played by E.V.Dohnanyi on the Ampico roll system. http://www.box.net/shared/b5fvvv7tbn



Edited by grandpianoman (05/06/10 11:08 PM)

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#1431066 - 05/06/10 09:34 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Jake Jackson]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Jake Jackson
(And what was it that happened, exactly--who hit you? Or did I miss another post somewhere else that had details you may not want to go into again?)


Let's go with a forensic explanation. I love the X-box file way to share files that GP introduced me to. I will share with you all the file from the official sheriff's office report:

http://www.box.net/shared/0k2d0piszi

I was turning left into a client's driveway in a rural area on a curved road. The driver behind me had been looking at his cellphone for signal strength and was therefore distracted. [The entire reason behind there are new "texting while driving" laws now being considered in many states.] He did not see until too late that my car had slowed to make a left turn. He hit me at full speed. He could have been switching radio stations. He could have been reaching for his sandwich or cup of coffee. He could have simply been admiring the beauty of the beautiful Wisconsin Spring at this time of year.

I am not angry at that driver. I understand why and how it happened. He was kind, helpful and remorseful after the accident. Unexpected incidents do happen. I could have easily been the one who caused the accident although I am an extremely defensive driver. I can't say how many very serious accidents I have avoided due to a practice and policy of defensive driving.

Off topic but relevant.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1431102 - 05/06/10 10:29 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1298
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
So glad you're OK Bill. Amazing how quickly things can happen.

Now for the test; and it's a good one. I'm going to stick my neck out by saying which one I like the best and lable that as EBVT III.


Il Postino:

#1 EBVT III
#2 ET

Out of Africa:

#1 EBVT III
#2 ET


The Out of Africa I though was much tougher.
_________________________
Do or do not. There is no try.

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#1431254 - 05/07/10 04:55 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Ralph]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1933
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Wow, Bill, you've certainly thrown down the gauntlet at your critics!

Nothing wrong with that, but by the same token, given your - umm - somewhat strong words, I think it would only be fair if you stick out your neck and do the blind test yourself.

Can't expect to draw your critics out but not do the test yourself... Why not make a start? Now that would be a gauntlet for sure.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1431293 - 05/07/10 08:04 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Mark R.]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thanks Mark but I would have an unfair advantage and besides, I already know the answers. No criticism anyone ever wrote persuaded me to not tune in the EBVT III which is the way I tune almost every piano. I occasionally tune in Marpurg or 1/7 Comma Meantone but NEVER in ET. I make the choices I do because they result in a better sounding, more musically pleasing piano than any version of ET ever could. The number of people who have come to understand this to be true is growing and gaining momentum. I predict the the end result will be that ET will end up having been a fad that lasted about 100 years.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1431302 - 05/07/10 08:44 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 783
Loc: Sarasota and Naples, FL
I did not listen very long to the test recordings, and there was a post where there were two and then there was 1, I think the jazz, and that was much harder to tell.

However, on the post that included the two selections, my immediate reaction was that the first example of each was EBVT III. I did not post my reaction right away, but it seems to agree with what others have guessed.

Thanks,

Nick
_________________________
Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist

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#1431327 - 05/07/10 09:39 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
... I make the choices I do because they result in a better sounding, more musically pleasing piano than any version of ET ever could. The number of people who have come to understand this to be true is growing and gaining momentum. I predict the the end result will be that ET will end up having been a fad that lasted about 100 years.


The rest of the 10's of thousands or piano tuners out there continue doing what they are doing because it is the accepted norm for almost a hundred years now. A "fad" is something that gains popularity for a brief, short time, by definition.

Even if all your clients were happy and could even tell the difference, the sum of you all represents less than a 1000th of a percent of all the pianos out there being regularly tuned differently. Smoke, mirrors, puffery and all the self praise in the world you can muster will hardly challenge or persevere against what is accepted by most everyone else out there (accepted for their own valid reasons). There have been countless others before you who have also made the same claims and faded into obscurity...not one has gained a foothold in the mainstream of music. As the famous saying goes...your a long, long way from Kansas, Dorthy.


Edited by Emmery (05/07/10 09:41 AM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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