Ah, yes. Heading to the big washy low "G." An interpretive risk to be sure! I'll work on that some more. And a few other things! Thank you, Phil!

Hello Rafael,

I don't know what to say about the experience you had with the octaves. I never use that data for the wound strings except on the piano I recorded them from. Otherwise, I always tune my wound strings aurally.

Yes, I do have another file that I use for any Yamaha P-22 or similar studio piano. It also seems to work for the same size Kawai piano. You may find it useful and I will post it as soon as I can get around to copying the data.

Hello GP,

I enjoyed these in particular. I had forgotten that we did them but it was the reason I brought the score to Carousel. I performed in that musical back in 1989 at the time when I had begun to tune all pianos in a non-equal temperament a few months before the rehearsals for the show began.

I had noted that the choice for key signature seemed appropriate to each of the compositions in the work; that choice being the same as any 17th through 19th Century composer would have made. I recall discussing that with Professor Owen Jorgensen at that time. He agreed with my findings.

All will note that "If I Loved You" is in the key of D-flat (5 flats) and is often suspected or expected not to sound good because of very wide and rapidly beating intervals. However, this is the key for the "soaring" melody and broken chords rather than close harmony and it works perfectly well and is indeed enhanced because of the temperament.

"You'll Never Walk Alone" on the other hand is in the key of C major and is perfectly suited to the stately, anthem like composition that concludes the show.

I hope everyone will listen to the two pieces and note what the contrast in key color does for them and compare or imagine how the neutrality of ET actually takes something away from each.

Happy New Year!

Happy New Year Bill!.....yes, I had forgotten about those 2 files as well.....wonderful sounding in EBVT III.

This should perk up everyone's interest, inc this ..... "One possible explanation for this is because of the emotions invoked by music - "expectations, delay, tension, resolution, prediction, surprise and anticipation", among others." in regards to EBVT III.


http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-te...c-1225984795121


I knew there was a reason why I get 'high' listening to my piano in EBVT III.

Andy...meant to tell you earlier...wonderful playing!

Thanks, GP! ^^^^

And, yes...



...EBVT III is an adjuvent!

--Andy

Music definitely helps one through life!

(Crossposted in Pianist Corner)

Back in April 2010, in this thread, I posted a couple of clips of the "Pipe Organ Effect" as displayed on my Lester spinet, to which GP replied:



After Bill's last visit, I recorded the pipe organ effect again.

So, who is up for another listening game? Can you tell which clip is "The Little Lester That Could", and which clip is from an Actual Cathedral Organ playing a C major chord in Camille Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3? (Of course you can! But won't you play the game anyway?)

Sample 1

Sample 2

Sample 3

Sample 4

--Andy

Andy, you funny!!!!!! I cracked up when I listened to it.

Thanks for putting this up, Andy. I have been absolutely swamped with work all month long, so I am way behind answering private e-mails and participating on here.

When I was a kind, I had a vinyl record of Saint-Saens "Organ Symphony" that I used to play over and over. I had always remembered that "blast" from the pipe organ as it suddenly intrudes in the middle of the 3rd movement and dominates the orchestra for the rest of the piece. It only plays a supportive role before that.

It took my whole life to actually hear that piece live because I had never been at the right place or time to hear it until our city got a new concert hall complete with a magnificent pipe organ suitable for its performance.

It was really by accident that I began to notice that when I tuned a piano in the EBVT or perhaps some other WT or 1/7 CMT and I stretched the octaves the way I usually do, I got this uncanny effect when playing a C Major arpeggio that reminded me of the loud and sudden entrance of the pipe organ in that piece. From that time on, I dubbed it the "pipe organ effect". I have never had a single person who upon hearing has disagreed that it really does sound like a pipe organ.

It seems to have more to do with the amount of stretch than it does with the temperament because in ET, you do hear at least some of that sound but it is the calm nature of C Major in any cycle of 5ths based non-ET that contributes to this very slow phase effect that really evokes the impression of pipes rather than strings as the sound decays.

It never fails to impress the listener. "Wow, that really sounds in tune!" is the most often heard response. Thanks for posting those clips!

I just keep listening to Andy's Beethoven 109 recording and haven't been able to leave this piece alone since he posted it.

Andy, I've listened to half a dozen (maybe more) great pianists play this sonata recently. Your tempo is the best. Most play this far too fast. They over look the sublime subtleties which don't get past you. And there really is something magical about your spinet sound. Very close and intimate. Great stuff.

Andy, could you ever ask or expect better encouragement than what Ralph has said?

I apologize if it was mentioned already, but might I ask about your recording setup?
I'm listening to the Scarlatti recording. It's really great, but specifically, there is something about it that makes me think of the recordings of Glenn Gould -- it has an effect I have been trying to emulate, in fact, and I am guessing that is due in large part to the proximity and location of the microphones relative to the piano. It definitely sounds very very intimate and the tone is very clear. Sounds like a rather close mic setup, or am I wrong?
Very enjoyable. My ear is not sensitive enough to appreciate the temperament, unfortunately, but I have enough of a grasp of musicality to say that this recording is amazing!

Hi Robert,

Not a problem...glad you are enjoying them....the mic setup, thanks to Patrick, is not as closed-mic as you might think...here is a picture...(the Edwards string cover was not in place during the recording)



When Patrick set it up, he moved his head around, facing the piano, until he had the best sound by ear, then he placed the mics in the position that you see in the picture....every piano/room will be different. ....and that's what I did for the Scarlatti and all the recordings after Patrick's visit. Before, I had been putting the mics under the piano lid, facing down.


Here they are again, so one does not have to search through this posting.

1. Scarlatti --Sonata in G, K.14-- played by Gerald Robbins on the LX http://www.box.net/shared/s22saigzz5

2. Scarlatti --Sonata in E, K.531-- p-by Gerald Robbins on the LX http://www.box.net/shared/f6iqxljsle

3. Scarlatti --Sonata in A, K.533-- p-by Gerald Robbins on the LX http://www.box.net/shared/qbsoopsa1b


Andy, FUN stuff with the organ!

Thank you so much Ralph. Your words affect me deeply. Someday, I hope to play the whole movement. Since you've listened to different versions, you know that the variations get more complex and intense as the movement continues and the playing spreads to the outer reaches of the keyboard. Some of the notes are played quite fast. The way I hear that movement in my core is that, as the variations pick up in intensity, the slow pulse continues and remains absolutely steady for the return of the theme at the end of the movement. It is, indeed, a compelling movement, and the key (E maj.) really tugs the spheres in EBVT III.

Jerry, just the thought of cracking you up with the organ clip post had me chuckling all day!

Thanks, guys!
--Andy

Brilliant recordings, and I hate to bother you again, but your repost of the Scarlatti sonatas seems to be an entirely different recording of the same piece... I would just like to verify; the mic setup you posted was used in the originally posted recording?
The new recording is equally beautiful, but the 'Gould' effect I mentioned seems absent here. Something about the mic placement seems to have changed... that is, unless there are finer forces at work and this new recording is simply differently equalized or the stereo tracks are differently weighted...
But the first thing I think is that the mics are further away in your latest posted recording. There seems, to me, to be a lot more room resonance in the latest.

If the picture you posted does represent the mic setup from the first recording, I'll be absolutely giddy with excitement. The setup used in that recording brings out the best qualities of the baroque repertoire... That fineness of sound is, if able to be emulated, something of extreme importance to me and many others.
Thanks very much for your explanation! It is very very helpful, but I would like to make sure it is the setup which went into that first recording.

Thanks Robert....not a bother at all.

I misunderstood your original question......The recordings you refer to.....

Scarlatti Four Sonatas
1. Sonata in C minor, K.11
2. Sonata in G. K.14
3. Sonata in E, K.531
4. Sonata in A, K.533

http://www.box.net/shared/e6oakti0yd


..... were not recorded with the mic-setup as in the picture posted above. That mic-setup uses 2 mics in a simple stereo setup, both mics facing down towards the strings, one in the treble section towards the keys, the other in the bass section towards the tail...both about 12 or so inches above the strings. Here is a video on my YouTube page that shows the mic positions approximately. http://www.youtube.com/user/AmpicoGPM

On both versions of the Scarlatti, there was no manipulation or addition of any enhancements etc....in fact, in all of my recordings there was no manipulation or sonic enhancements of any kind, just pure, simple stereo digital recordings.

Ah! Thank you so much... that is exactly what I needed.
I'll have to try it out!

Here is the previously posted Ravel piece (miroirs 5) again, this time in three temperaments: equal, EBVT3, and a somewhat stronger well-temperament.

Who can hear which is which, and which do you think sounds best? These are played on a digital piano via pre-recorded MIDI. Everything is exactly the same except the tuning.

Here are the three recordings:

(1)
(2)
(3)

Kees

Hey, DoelKees!

Very cool. I have PM'd you my answers!

--Andy

Andy, that spinet indeed sounds very nice, as does the way these Goldberg variations 'sing' in EBVT III. I particularly like the cheeky B7's

And your playing, by the way, is very good - I like your patient approach, and that you're not overly bringing out the middle parts, just kind of listen to them.

/patrick

Well, hi-dee-ho, Patrick! Where you been?

About the playing--Thanks! Yes, sometimes you just have to let Mr. Bach speak for himself!

Good to hear from you!

--Andy

P.S. Have you gotten anywhere with WTC1 Prel. 22? I am about ready to record it, but will wait until after the next round of upgrades on the Lester. It sure would be nice to hear you play it on your Yamaha!

Doel: I like # 3 the best. I suspect it is EBVT#, #1 is stronger well temp and #2 is ET.

Kees,
I just PM'd you a revised answer, and, as I said in my PM, I am committing my "final, final answer" to the public thread and will live with the consequences.

1=ET
2=Stronger temperament
3=EBVT III

I actually kind of like them all, but favor 2 and 3 for this recording...

EDIT: My first answer to Kees was 1=Stronger temp., 2=EBVT III, 3=ET, just so you know.

Thus far only 3 answers. Feel free to PM me your guess, I will keep it confidential.
It's actually better to PM so as not to influence others.

Thanks,
Kees

Kees,

What is the update? Thanks!

--Andy

I haven't had time to listen carefully enough to each of these to try to guess. Although I really like this way of comparing temperament effects, especially when the temperament is one of the "way out there" ones like the 1/3 comma meantone, the device is not a piano. I can almost always recognize my own tuning on a piano nearly instantly. In the time that I had, I did recognize some differences between consonance and dissonance and that one of them seemed to blur those distinctions. I presume that one was the ET.

In the many defenses I have had to make about using the EBVT III for general use, I have encountered the "Oh sure, that would be OK for earlier music or for those who play only in the simple keys on modest pianos" type assertion. There was much skepticism, however that the EBVT III might be useful for playing such late 19th or early 20th Century or later music which used the remote keys or modulated frequently between the simple and remote keys.

For the latter, I have always maintained that the EBVT III would actually enhance this music because when dissonance or melodic carrying power were desired, the EBVT III provided more intensity for the dissonant parts and therefore more relief in the consonant parts. The melodic carrying power of the wide intervals in the remote keys also are enhanced by the EBVT III.

Examples of both that readily come to mind are Chopin: Fantasie Impromptu, "Raindrops" étude, Polonaise in A-flat, Debussy: Claire de Lune, Grieg: Notturno, Schubert: Impromptu #4, Opus 29, Rogers & Hammerstein: "If I loved you".

In this Ravel example, there is clearly the idea of bells from different places sounding which often clash with each other. The natural inharmonicity that bells have is aptly demonstrated with the wide intervals between C1&2 and B-flat 3&4 played together to produce very rapid beating and mild dissonance. Then, there are some very consonant moments, perhaps depicting the moment when only one set of bells from one place are heard. It is a very interesting piece!

I heard many representations of it on You Tube and one other source. None had quite the stunning effect as the recording made at Grandpianoman's (as re-engineered by Andy). Indeed, some of the You Tube recordings were dull and lifeless. I first heard this piece played locally by a French artist in 1/7 Comma Meantone and I remember that same kind of mind bending effect it had on me at that time.

Kees,

I definitely couldn't tell. I can tell them apart, yes, but they all sound bad to me... that is, the midi-rendered piano sample sound sounds out of tune even on a single note.

Might be only my problem, but I need to hear a real piano and interaction between strings.

Patrick

The correct answer was:

1. Strongest temperament (Neidhardt's "small city")
2. EBVT3
3. ET

I got 6 replies. 4/6 identified 1 as the strongest, no-one could really tell the difference between 2 and 3. My own answer has been formulated by Pat already: the main feature of the sound is the awful MIDI synth, eclipsing the temperament for me.

Unfortunately easy to perform MIDI tuning experiments won't cut it in evaluating the subtle effects of these mild temperaments. We need real pianos tuned by expert tuners.

We need a billionaire to fund such a study.

Kees

Hey, folks. Bill just finished another big bunch of work on my Lester spinet. We replaced the damper felts, and then Bill gave it a fairly thorough once-over, regulation-wise. To list everything he did might take pages. There are still some adjustments to be made (I am probably way too fussy of a customer), and I know it's just a raggedy old spinet and there is no such thing as a "perfect piano," but basically, it plays like a grand piano now, and that is no joke. Anyone who thinks I am crazy is probably right about that, but you are more than welcome to come try out my piano and be amazed!

Unfortunately, the piano has developed a maddening buzz in the C5 to E5 region--right in the heart of the melody zone. There are many things I would like to record, but am not able to at the moment. As far as I can tell, it is not coming from the soundboard (I did the "press test"). Nothing has fallen into or behind the piano, it is not loose wallpaper on the wall, the surgeon did not leave his forceps in the piano, etc., etc. It sounds like it's coming from inside the piano, though, somewhere right in that zone.

I was able to record a few things, however. Here's the first of them. You can hear the buzz a little bit in the pianissimo section. Still, I hope you enjoy it! The sound is not enhanced in any way, except for the use of a hiss filter. I intend to cross-post this in the "Some Sweet Videos: an older piano tuned to an unequal temperament" thread, because it figures into the discussion about Chopin, temperament, and how playing in a well-temperament can effect phrasing in a very positive way.

Chopin Prelude Op28 No20

--Andy