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It was a fine and productive answer, Mark. If this music is to be played on a keyboard, the keyboard has to be tuned in Just Intonation with D-flat as the home key, it would seem. I'm not sure with all the modulations, that could be done. It was written for winds, so any interpretation of it on a keyboard will alter they way it is intended to sound. ET does not help it, nor would apparently any other arrangement.

GP has it in ET. All he has to do is post it. I'm afraid you won't like it any better that way.

Rafael, you will note that I never used those three letters. A tuning exam is a tuning exam. The schools that teach piano tuning give them and they have nothing to do with qualification to any organization. I have seen it written that some schools go beyond what Patrick experienced.

The discussion is about relative ease or difficulty, the pressure of the exam, etc. The same kind of exam could be given to anyone, anywhere without any association to any organization.

Indeed, Patrick has shown that he has grasped the necessary skills to go on to teach piano tuning. He can give the same type of exam where he lives and develop standards in his own country using the exam he took as a precedent.

No one recruited Patrick, he sought out what he saw as valuable and pursued it of his own accord with great personal effort on his part. His school funded his trip and that investment will be rewarded many times over with the set of knowledge and skills that Patrick brings back to share with his students.

Bill,

I doubt that just intonation would do the trick. To wit: the first few chords are a veritable roller-coaster ride through the circle of fifths: still having the last chord of the symphony's first movement in one's ear (one sharp), Dvorak now opens the second movement diametrically across the circle, in five flats - only to bounce from there back to one sharp, to five flats, to two flats, to six flats and finally back to five flats - almost as though he was stumbling around, looking for a new key.

Was he playing tricks, trying to confuse the listener? I believe he was.

Indeed, one of the reasons I'm so interested in an ET rendition, is to listen to exactly this wild, seemingly disjointed progression of chords/keys. I have a hunch that ET may actually contribute to this deliberate confusion, because all the keys will sound the same, so the listener is truly disoriented, like in a hall of mirrors. In an orchestra, you can play all of those chords just. On a keyboard, you can't, so "second prize" is perhaps playing all of them equally tempered.

Getting too philosophical or off-topic, perhaps?

Not at all, Mark. I hope that GP will post the ET version so that you can have some confirmation of your ideas. The whole idea of ET is that nothing is right but everything is the least amount wrong. It would still not convince me to tune anything in ET for I have long known that position. I have been given other examples of why ET should be the one and only choice but other factors have outweighed that consideration for me. This odes not mean that I expect everyone to agree with me but it does mean that I expect the right to make my own decision while I respect the right of others to make their decisions based upon what they know and believe.

Hi Mark,

I will definitely post Patrick's "Going Home" in ET....for that, he played it on the Yamaha...the EBVT III that I posted, was played on the M&H BB. I can also transpose the ET version with the touch of a button...are there any keys you would like to hear it in?

One note...my Korg MR-1000 right channel has gone south...it's going to take a few weeks to get it fixed, if not longer. So I will use the Zoom H4 for this ET version.

GPM:

D flat will be just fine, thanks. Well, if it's really just the touch of a button, I'd be interested in C and D as well, just to compare it to the EBVT III renditions.

Others have said it; now it's my turn: many thanks for your patience in posting so many sound samples! It's fascinating stuff.

Bill:


People sharing their contrary opinions does not mean that they are trying to convince you to do things contrary to your convictions. Neither does it mean that they are criticising you as a person, or denying you any of your rights. Really, it doesn't.

Glen (Inlanding) used a nice analogy in a PM he sent me yesterday: Some people like vegetarian lasagna, some like meat lasagna. But the secret of any good lasagna, be it vegetarian or "con carne", is in the sauce - the execution of the recipe. The "sauce" of a good tuning is much more than just the choice of temperament. If the unisons aren't clean and there is no appropriate stretch, even the "best" temperament will never shine.

Well, for my part I thought it was a rather apt picture.

Bill,

Sorry, I know you are not recruiting.

I guess I am getting too conspicuous about what can and can not be said here.

Just getting back from a vacation in central Europe, bear with me if I don't have the whole dialogue in this thread plowed through just yet.

GPM: just for clarification, the "Going Home Theme" was recorded on the Yamaha Diskclavier, then played back on the Mason & Hamlin (through the LX system) and recorded.

... as far as I remember. If this is wrong, it will all be due to the excellent micro-breweries of Portland

Mark, you're welcome! It's been my pleasure to share in this EBVT III discovery. Ever since I had the Wapin and the Isaac hammers put on, the piano has been steadily improving in the overall sound...and with the addition of Bill's EBVT III, it has enhanced the tone and resonance even more. It's been quite a journey so far. Now I have to try and replicate Bill's tuning. Bill had those unisons so spot on, I am a little hesitant to try and match him.

The Yamaha has that uncanny ability to transpose to any key. What is also great....I can stream the midi output of the Yamaha directly to the LX, therefore allowing any key change on the M&H RBB as well.

Patrick, you are correct about your playing it on the Yamaha! Did I forget to tell you that in the Portland area, ALL microbreweries put an extra ingredient in to make their brew more potent?!?...it's been written up in all the papers. It's all a kind of blur, there was so much going on. You also played the Yamaha for your "Kristallen den fina"...and it's slightly different than the one you played on the M&H BB...a bit more ornamentation. It's very beautiful. Will post that as well.

When Gregg Punswick sat down to play Mussorgsky's
"Pictures at an Exhibition" on the M&H RBB, that is when my Korg decided to take a holiday in the right channel. So, I had to use the Zoom....not quite as good as the Korg....never the less, it turned out nice...will be posting that as well...as soon as I can re-tune the piano and be satisfied with the results.

I know you can do it, GP. The concept of unison tuning is simple, no beat! I know you can hear when there is one, we all can. I was very impressed with how the RCT can correct for pitch.

Equipment failures! I arrived at GP's house only to find that my SAT III with which I had had no problem at all in six years had suddenly gone haywire!. (Randy Potter came through however with a technician who loaned me an SAT IV and did a video of me. I now have a new SAT IV that does not do a bad job of interpreting the EBVT III, better than expected. I also used it today to tune the 1/7 comma meantone with superb results.)

Then, right in the middle of wanting to record a fine pianist, the recording equipment goes haywire too! All that, together with voicing issues and a new noise in the piano on the last day, we still managed to pull off some great recordings.

Look forward to: The Carousel Waltz from the musical, Carousel (a very long and engaging piece) plus 2 more songs from the same. Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition, a 25 minute piece, full of imagery and color. Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu played with "mindless octaves". A few pieces by Grieg and others from a New Age album of music. An album of early music is also waiting for GP to record in the EBVT III. GP can also record any of the thousands of rolls or discs he has for the player systems.

All will demonstrate how the EBVT III works well with virtually any kind of music, no matter from what period or century it comes, no matter what style or key signature.

Stay tuned!

As noted, I don't have much input on the EBVT III as I know and understand very little about it but I am coming to enjoy it having an open mind about it and other method's of tuning. I hope to understand and to be able to tune it after next month when Bill pays me a visit. I certainly don't understand the math nor, do I care to understand it, in fact, I hate that kind of math, but, I do enjoy listening to the music being posted by GPM and others a great deal and look forward to more!!!

You might find this interesting. For the fun of it, I took a couple of GPM's recordings and sent them to my cousin who has a pretty good ear. I told him the first tuning was in ET and the 2nd was something "different." He said, "I love the first tuning. I hate the 2nd." I did the same thing with my oldest sister and got the same response. It did not take either of them long to come to that conclusion. Now wait,,,, I'm making a point... I imagined that they both said this because they both know that I tune in ET or mostly now, with RCT and because I told them which was which beforehand. So, I did something different instead.

I took a few more of GPM's recordings and sent them to the both of them again but this time, I said nothing about which was which. Actually, each one that I sent to them was tuned in EBVT III. I just said, I love these songs "too..." It took my sister a little bit longer to say anything but, when she did, she said this. "I like the tuning. Did you tune the piano?" Of course I said, no, that it was in the other tuning which totally surprised her.

My cousin on the other hand, liked all of them and was also surprised by the fact that they were not ET and that I had not done the tuning.

Interesting?

Very interesting anecdotal evidence, indeed, Jer. People seem to like these food analogies. When I go to the store to buy ketchup, I only by Heinz. I don't like or want any other brand. If I buy a hot dog, they often have a ketchup dispenser that has no label on it and it always does the job. If there were another brand label on it, I may not even use it but when it only says "ketchup", I have no problem with it. A colleague of mine who only tunes in unequal temperaments has long said, "If you put a label on it, people will reject it". I have confirmed that far too many times to count.

Still, word does slowly get around that there are other ideas and people do embrace them once they get to understand them. I had one of those 1/7 comma meantone customers yesterday, for example. That is what he wants and specifies.

Greetings all...have been busy with work...have a bit of a break, so I can get some of the recordings we made for the "tune-a-thon" posted.

Here is Gregg Punswick playing Mussorgsky,s "Pictures at an Exhibition" on the M&H RBB. The music is quite something, from ppp to fff, and everything in between! Aside from the wonderful effect of the EBVT III tuning, the fact that even in the loudest fff passages, there was NO distortion of the piano...I am not referring to the distortion from the recording, but from the actual piano itself! The last 2 movements at the end are amazing in the bass area of the piano as well as the treble. Headphones! Thank you Gregg for your contribution!


Mussorgsky "Pictures at an Exhibition" played by Gregg Punswick on my 1925 Mason & Hamlin RBB Grand. Recorded July 2, 2010. Zoom H4 with a matched pair of Rode NT5 mics. For some reason, the R-L tracks are reversed...I just tried to correct that, but because I don't have my Korg, the sound of the corrected file was not as good....so, when you listen to this, reverse your headphones.

http://www.box.net/shared/51dnxxpqb1


I was using the Korg MR-1000 for all the recordings...unfortunately, the right channel broke when I went to record the Mussorgsky....so what you are hearing is the Zoom H4 with the Rode NT 5 mics.....also, I am not sure I got the mics in the best position like Patrick did for the earlier recordings.

Never the less, the end result is very good...EBVT III continues to amaze me with it's colors etc. Bill, as I mentioned to you when you were here, the bass on the piano is now, if you can believe it, even more powerful and resonant! It really is an amazing sound! Those last 8-10 treble hammers that you used the Aceton/Plexiglass on are great, as there is now a definite musical pitch/tone present.

As before, this recording is directly taken from the Zoom H4, no processing or any added enhancements were added.

I would suggest, if you can, to download the Mussorgsky...the box.net player sacrifices some sound quality, including a slight lack of spaciousness in the sound. It's about a 75mb mp3 file though. (gulp)

Mark, I have not forgotten about the "Going Home" in ET!

More recordings to come as I get to them. Enjoy!


I was so busy watching and learning from Bill, recording and learning from Patrick, and enjoying the music, I forgot to take a lot of pictures...I did remember to take a few......:)

The piano: 1925 Mason & Hamlin RBB



Bill doing his thing with the new SAT IV


regulation


93 Yrs young family friend, Fred, enjoying the wine and the music.


Gregg Punswick at the piano

WOW! Gregg! Thanks for that amazing performance!

Is Gregg around to write about his experience playing in EBVT III? If not, then GP, Bill or Patrick, do you recall him saying anything in particular about how it effects a pianist in performance?

The piano sounds fabulous. So much energy!

Thanks for the posting, GP!

--Andy

What a performance! Wow!

GP, thanks for posting.

Gadzar, Andy, you're welcome!

I am just finishing up my first tuning with the new tuning figures that Bill made for me. Let me say this....it's a daunting task to lay down a tuning as good and clean as Bill's!! His was so good in the unison dept, and so stable, I don't think I can quite do it justice, but I am trying!

Will be posting some ET stuff soon, and my tuning, if it will pass my 'sonic scrutiny'.

Hey GP. Nice picture of Fred. Just like I remember him. He was a hoot to have around.

Nice recordings too. I've been enjoying them.

Hi Roy,

Thanks....yes, Fred is something else....at 93, I hope we can all be that healthy!

Ok...just finished tuning and recording my first attpemt at Bill's new EBVT III tuning figures....not too shabby as they would say! It sounds beautiful in EBVT IIi.

Bill, thanks again for your wonderful work...you worked your tail off while you were here, and I really appreciate it. The end result is I now have a way to recreate your EBVT III, and we have some beautiful recordings to boot! It's opened my eyes and ears to another way to tune that has so many beautiful qualities to offer. Also, thanks to Patrick and Gregg for their contributions!

This time I used the RCT...Dean was very helpful in teaching me how to input all 88 figures into the RCT...since I had never done that before, it was a big help...thanks Dean.

Bill' had suggested several ways to go about my getting a more stable tuning...such as in the 5th-6th octaves, using Smart Tune on the first pass, then on the 2nd, setting the offset to + 0.05 for the first string, then aurally and or with the RCT, tune the other 2 strings to that. I did that, and once I went through the rest of the piano using Fine Tune, coming back to that section using with the 0,05...it was not 0.05, but almost right on pitch! Thanks for the suggestions Bill.

So, the RCT did a great job...I now have two ways to go...RCT or Iphone Tunelab.

Here is Resphigi's "Notturno" played by Earl Wild from the LX collection.

http://www.box.net/shared/9oslmc86gg


This was recorded using the Zoom H4 inputs, the Avenson ST0-2 Omni mics, using Patrick's suggested configuration.

More to come....:)

Oh, GP! Thank you for remembering! I just PM'd ChrisKeys to give him a heads up.

What an excellent selection to show off the bright high treble, resonant bass, and fine tuning!

Man, I'd love to hear Chris play this in EBVT III!

Very beautiful, GP.