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#1387799 - 03/04/10 03:21 AM My Piano in EBVT III
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2363
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Greetings all,

Last week, as many of you here on PW may know, Bill Bremmer flew out to my home and tuned my piano in his "EBVT III" Temperament. During the day on Saturday, Bill tuned the piano, and that evening I had a small group of frends over to hear the results and enjoy an evening of piano music. I also met Randy Potter who made the drive down from Bend, Oregon, and joined us for the afternoon and evening. We all had a great time. After Bill finished tuning, Randy Potter sat down at the piano, played it a bit, looked up at Bill and said "I want to tune my piano this way". smile

Earlier in the week, my piano rebuilder, Randy Cox, flew up from LA to install a new backaction kit from Wessell Nickel&Gross. (Thanks to Gene Nelson here on PW for posting back in Sept about this kit, and to WNickel&Gross for an excellent product) While it took a bit of work to get it in there, the resulting playback of both the Ampico and the LX is now in a class by itself. Both mechanisms play the piano now with such preciseness and finesse, it's beyond my expectations. Here is a picture of the damper tray during the installation.



The carbon-fibre is so much lighter and quicker than the wood, so as a result, the Ampico and the LX have less resistance lifting the dampers which equals more precise playback. Each note has 3 adjustments and operate differently than the the old tray, which had no adjustments. The resulting playback is so crisp and clean, it's like a new piano! The rail itself is made out of aluminum...overall, it's a great product!

I wanted to record Bill's tuning right after he finished, but because we had guests coming, I did not have the time to record. I did record 2 days later, after Randy Cox was finished adjusting the Ampico and LX. As a result, the tuning is not quite like Bill left it...some unisons are out, and the piano fell a bit flat in spots. Another factor is that we pounded the upper 2 treble sections pins down the night before Bill arrived, that, and the fact that both player systems really play the piano hard, more so than a real artist, so the tuning is not as pristine as when Bill left it, but you can get a very good idea of the EBVT sound. As Bill said, "I believe there are two factors here. One is that in spite of the extraordinary time taken to tune the piano, especially the unisons, the player system drives the piano as hard or harder than the most exuberant artist. It would be expected that the day after, a broadcast quality tuning would need to be freshened up.

Secondly, the fact that the piano generally went flat to some degree points to heat generated from the player systems. The latter is perhaps more significant than the former."

Bill brought his Sanderson ETD and recorded every note for me. I now have this tuning record installed in my ETD's and I will be able to replicate Bill's tuning in the future.

I have never heard my piano sound this good. There is something "right" about this EBVT III. Every piece I played sounds great.

For those of you who are not familiar with my piano, it is a 1925 Mason & Hamlin 7ft RBB. The entire rebuilt piano, including the installation of both mechanisms, was done by Randy Cox of Anaheim Hills. It has Ari Isaac's Cadenza "S" hammers and his bass strings. It also has the Wapin bridge conversion done by Roy Peters, who posts here on PW. http://www.wix.com/petersrpt/peters-piano It also has both a rebuilt Ampico Piano Roll reproducing system from the 1920's and the LX playback system from www.live-performance.com

Here are a few Ampico and LX selections in this EBVT III. Enjoy, and there will be more coming in the future.

A big thank you to Bill Bremmer for taking the time come out to my home and do his magic. It was also a pleasure to meet Randy Potter. We all had a great time! GP smile

1. Ampico Piano Roll: "Reflets dans L'eau" by Debussy played by Leo Ornstein played on the Ampico http://www.box.net/shared/4i7phr8ezs

2. Earl Wild plays Chopin on the LX http://www.box.net/shared/t0kgk4oqfu

3. Ampico Piano Roll: "The Torrent" composed and played by Leslie Loth on the Ampico http://www.box.net/shared/axl7oyhuad

4. Ampico Piano Roll: "Etude Tableux" composed and played by Sergei Rachmaninoff on the Ampico http://www.box.net/shared/4k7r0qaybf

5. Gershwin's "Our Love is Here to Stay" on the LX
http://www.box.net/shared/0i7ajimsmx

6. Gershwin plays Gershwin "Rhapsody in Blue" on the LX taken from the Duo-Art Piano Roll http://www.box.net/shared/mf14vmvryl

7. Gerold Robbins plays Scarlatti on the LX (from the Bosendorfer SE recordings) converted to the LX format by Wayne Stahnke.

Scarlatti Four Sonatas
1. Sonata in C minor, K.11
2. Sonata in G. K.14
3. Sonata in E, K.531
4. Sonata in A, K.533

http://www.box.net/shared/e6oakti0yd


Edited by grandpianoman (03/04/10 04:09 AM)

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#1387895 - 03/04/10 08:37 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Chicagoland
Congrats! Sounds like a wonderful experience. Since I know you are a "tuning experimenter", let me suggest something for further investigation. Compare your new saved tuning with other tuning(s) that you have liked. jJust compare the A's to try and see how the stretch compares. I believe that there is a lot of unexplored effects based just on altering the stretch. (ie. "Grand Obsession")

You may find it interesting to try ET as well as other temperaments using the stretch that you liked so much with this recent tuning. This also points out a problem for ETD users trying to emulate Bill's tuning without customizing the stretch parameters of the machine. You can also double check the EBVT III offsets after matching the stretch to see if you can re-create the tuning via machine calculation. (does the calculated tuning match the saved aural tuning?)

I can't hear the recordings here, but will check them out tonite!

thanks!

Ron Koval
chicagoland
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1387901 - 03/04/10 08:53 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
RoyP Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 786
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Hi Grandpianoman:

Still keeping Randy busy, I see. The piano is sounding great. I have been working with the EBVT some, and do like it. Have you voiced the Isaacs hammers at all? I'm glad you went to those. They aren't compacting like the others did.

Bill is right that the pounding by the player systems and the heat both make tuning stability difficult. One thing I would point out in regards to heat is that the LX power supply is different from the other systems on the market. Wayne said he has three patents on the power supply alone. On most power supplies, there is a voltage regulator. That is what gets hot. So there are fans installed to cool them. They blow heated air under the soundboard of the piano. The LX doesn't have that, but controls the voltage on the circuit driver boards. This takes away a major heat component. I don't know how it works. The power supply also is built to turn on and off when you turn off the CD player. So, there is no electronic vampire to suck energy while the thing is turned off. These are two points which don't affect playback, but which I like about the system.
_________________________
Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
www.cincypiano.com

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#1387943 - 03/04/10 09:45 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
GPM:

Thanks for spending all this time and effort!

I only listened to “Our Love is here to Stay”. It took half an hour to download… I liked the amount of stretch very much. It was better than the RCT stretch that you posted a while ago. And the stability was pretty darn good too, much better than the piano Garrick Ohlsson played for Chopin’s 200th birthday. I am very glad you like EBVT III, but whatever part of my mind is musical just does not understand it. I hear that some chords are more dissident than others, but it does not make sense to me that they should be. It sounds wrong, not right, to me.

I sent you a PM in regards to the “further investigation” that Ron mentioned.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1387988 - 03/04/10 10:57 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Grandpianoman, thanks. I haven't heard everything yet but I loved the Debussy. The title means "Reflections upon the water" and you really get that idea from the music.

Jeff, it would not make sense to me that all chords would be equally dissonant. The relative consonance/dissonance of well tempered tuning is always according to the key signature. There was always a reason to choose a key signature for its expected color. There was always a reason to modulate: a place to go from where one is and a place to return. So, when you hear more dissonance at any particular time, it is a way of building tension which will be followed by release. The whole musical experience is far more satisfying and the way it was actually intended to sound.

The Debussy would be well worth your time to download, it would probably take about 45 minutes. You can hear many sustained chords and modulations. You will clearly hear the tension and release I referred to. the return to the home key is so much more satisfying after an adventure away from it than it ever could be in ET where all harmonies bear equal amounts of mild dissonance an no consonance.

By the way, you don't have to download these selections, you can just click "play" but perhaps if you don't have a high speed connection, that won't work, I'm not sure.

Ron, the amount of stretch there is in each octave is different from one to the next. What there is in this tuning on this piano is unique to this piano and this temperament and cannot be applied to any other temperament or any other piano.

I'll bet that Grandpianoman won't be very interested in returning to ET. If anything, he'll want to try the original EBVT and then 1/7 Comma Meantone.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1388002 - 03/04/10 11:16 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Chicagoland
"Ron, the amount of stretch there is in each octave is different from one to the next. What there is in this tuning on this piano is unique to this piano and this temperament and cannot be applied to any other temperament or any other piano."

Yup, got that - my interest has always been to look at how the inharmonicity drives the stretch. You may remember me writing years ago that I wondered if what you do is more a "style" than a temperament in the respect of being able to "get there" from an ET tuning via machine. While EBVT III offset numbers have been published, I've never seen anything in print to indicate that someone has replicated an aural tuning done by you with those numbers. I believe that GP has the gear available to test this...

My last class talked about the difference that both stretches and temperaments can make to customize the tuning to the client.

Ron Koval
chicagoland
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1388009 - 03/04/10 11:27 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Gene Nelson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1510
Loc: Old Hangtown California
Glad this WNG kit worked out for you.
Actually, the carbon fiber is more dense than the wood.
It may appear lighter to the player mechanism because damper return
springs are not really necessary - I would be curious if Randy chose to
use return springs. Also a tray return spring is
not necessary. A tray spring is probably what helped warp your
original.
_________________________
RPT
PTG Member

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#1388012 - 03/04/10 11:33 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
.....

Jeff, it would not make sense to me that all chords would be equally dissonant. The relative consonance/dissonance of well tempered tuning is always according to the key signature. There was always a reason to choose a key signature for its expected color. There was always a reason to modulate: a place to go from where one is and a place to return. So, when you hear more dissonance at any particular time, it is a way of building tension which will be followed by release. The whole musical experience is far more satisfying and the way it was actually intended to sound.

.....


Thanks for the explanation, Bill. I have read this before, understand it, and actually heard what you are talking about. It was a piece on Performance Today on NPR. I do not remember what the piece was. It must have been classical. It did not modulate much like a romantic piece would. What I first noticed was how pure the chords close to Tonic were. Then I noticed that the chords further from Tonic were not, and this made me nervous. I knew instinctively that if the piece modulated a little bit more that it would go beyond my “dissonance threshold.” It never did modulate that far, but I did not enjoy listening to it because of my dread. I suppose if I had listened to the piece a number of times, I could have gotten used to it and maybe liked the temperament. But what was going on made sense to me. What I hear in EBVT III does not. My musical sense may not be as refined as others.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1388095 - 03/04/10 01:55 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: UnrightTooner]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 584
Loc: Atlanta, GA
I particularly like the Debussy and Scarlatti pieces.

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#1388270 - 03/04/10 06:05 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Jake Jackson]
daniokeeper Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: PA
Bill & GP,

The piano does sound very nice! Very musical!


Edited by daniokeeper (03/04/10 09:17 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#1388378 - 03/04/10 08:58 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: daniokeeper]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2363
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Thanks for all your comments....will talk more about that later....Here is an Ampico roll I forgot to put in my original post.

"The Ice Skaters Waltz" by Waldtaufel Played by Leslie Loth, EBVT III Tuning

http://www.box.net/shared/k58tkbj5zn

There are more to come as I transfer these from my digital recorder.

For those interested in my sound recording equipment. I have upgraded the recorder and the mics. The digital recorder is a Korg MR-1000 1-Bit Pro Mobile Recorder...a breeze to use and it's portable. The 1-bit recording is fantastic. I just wish when reducing to mp3's, the sound was better, but that's not the fault of the Korg. The mics are great....Avenson Audio STO-2 Matched Omni-Electret Condenser Mics. These sound so natural on piano and guitar...one of the reasons I bought them.

Enjoy, and more to come! GP


Edited by grandpianoman (03/04/10 08:59 PM)

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#1388415 - 03/04/10 09:48 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2363
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Next batch.....the Die Meistersinger (The Master Singer) from Richard Wagner and the Concert Study by Ernst von Dohnanyi are 2 of my favorite Ampico rolls to show the immense power of the Ampico and the M&H bass sound. Also, Bill's EBVT III really shines as well. Enjoy, with more to come as I transfer these. smile GP


1. Die Meistersinger p/b Rybner http://www.box.net/shared/nj3u8dq19m Bill Bremmer's EBVT III Tuning

2. Concert Study composed and played by Ernst Von Dohnanyi http://www.box.net/shared/l0crbc2zsc Bill Bremmer's EBVT III Tuning


Edited by grandpianoman (03/04/10 09:50 PM)

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#1388510 - 03/05/10 12:20 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Erus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Mexico
Those are some very nice recordings and Bill's tuning sounds very good.

It sounds like your player systems can really pound those strings!

It would be interesting if you tell us later how close you are to replicate Bill's tuning by yourself. Did you also have a tuning master class? Did you just watch him?

Don't hesitate to post more recordings smile

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#1388638 - 03/05/10 05:28 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: daniokeeper]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Hello, GrandPianoMan thanks so much for sending those very enjoyable recordings. I like the tone of those pianos, the quality of the recordings is also amazing (as the players actions, your efforts to have nice pianos seem to pay !).

I find that the tunings have a nice resonance, and open tone, and I understand how enjoyable the pianos may be to play, nevertheless, some harmony with different rendering have not much musical sense, as the flat(no beat) interval, I or the G5 that I find a little high. This induce to me a little sensation of less listening comfort. or does not have, justification in music (I am twisted by Jeff's comment, but I may say I agree).

That said, The resonance part seem to be something similar to the Chas resonance, with a concentration of the relation around the double octave, with the second inversion of the minor chord at the bottom.

I dont see how this can be coherent if the temperament is uneven, but the reconciliation of double octave and 12th provide a coherence of the spectra that play a role not only at the top note, and to me that is some sort of "self locking" to the good equilibrium between frequencies (part of the Chas effect is that)

This may be what Bill call the "mindless octave", as long as the lower part is coherently sounding the evenness of beating of the 12th and double octave induce an evenness at the M3 and M6th level, that will borrow the same beat difference with the bottom note. Then I've find that the hot spot for the double octave relation is a real emphasis of the sound.

I dont grasp the logic on how that may be working if the temperament is uneven, but as only 4 notes are involved each time if the relation between M3 and M6 is coherent within the tuning, that should work.
In any case iH give us ample room to conform to resonance .

I had little time to really enjoy recording all the music. I will listen more during the week end.

In the meantime, I am experimenting with that Major triad second inversion as used to expand the double octave (and octave) in the tuning, as this seem to me an interesting thing.

Sorry to be out of topic, I am not totally anyway .

Can someone tell me, when the 12th and 15th are beating the same speed, what doe sit mean in regard of the 4Tth created with the bottom note ?.

PS European grand pianos never have damper springs, on damper levers, even the tray is free most of the time (the pedal mechanism have a return spring)

Best regards.

To summarize, I propose the theory that the good resonant tone is due to the expanding of the tuning (!)

Best regards; Thank you again
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1388649 - 03/05/10 05:57 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: daniokeeper]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Well, euh, I am truly sorry, but I am listening to Rhapsody in blue, sound false to my ears since the beginning.

Not adding anything to music...

The resonance is not even that large. something is non natural.... (apart from the roll) like somebody that work with aleg shorter than the other.

And I feel that the tuning pins and upper wire segment is not tense to the top, that can be hears in the somewhat mufled tone of the treble (lack of air.)

I am really apologizing, I had wished that the tuning would tone better.

Something remains : to me, for the pianist, playing a piano that surprise the ear because of unexpected harmonies may be fun, more than for the listener.


I also have the impression that my theory is correct, and the that justness progressively re conciliate in the treble (and bass ?) with the "mindless octaves", the tuning get closer to the natural harmony, that make the tuning acceptable. I just wonder what it would gibe if octaves doubles and triples should follow the same pattern all along.

Because of that "natural resonance" concept, I believe that the pitch of notes can naturally settle to a resonant spot that allow the tuning to sound nicely when larger span is used.

That said. The listening comfort is good as long as I dont think "justness"

Just wish I could have been more positive, sorry Bill. (the unisons are too close to me, also)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1388655 - 03/05/10 06:07 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Olek]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
What is funny is that some chords/tonalities have the resonance of the piano that have not been tuned for years, while others sound "no beat" (dry). That makes to me a mix that goes against the coherence of the tone , generally speaking.

In the midele some tonalities are good, that is just a question of luck.

I am still listening, no piece sound perfect to me, alqyas something make my teeth... bad idea, from the start.

sorry again,

Sad as it may be time consuming to come to that solution.

I feel bad ..
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1388656 - 03/05/10 06:08 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Olek]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
GrandPianoMan can you post recordings done with another tuning so we can compare ?

Thanks so much to allow us to benefit from those experiment, I highly appreciate that.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1388689 - 03/05/10 07:27 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Olek]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Kamin:

You posted, ”Can someone tell me, when the 12th and 15th are beating the same speed, what doe sit mean in regard of the 4Tth created with the bottom note ?

In the case of equal beating 12ths and 15th with the common note on top and an implied fourth on the bottom, the beat speed of the 12th and 15th will be exactly half the beat speed of the fourth. And by combining the M3-M6 test for the fourth, the M3-M17 test for the 15th and the M17-M6 for the 12th, a series of progressive RBIs are available as a test.

Example with an arbitrary P4 beat speed:

P4 G3-C4 beats 1 bps wide. M3 D#3-G3 beats 1 bps slower than M6 D#3-C4

P15 G3-G5 will beat ½ bps wide. M3 D#3-G3 beats ½ bps slower than M17 D#3-G5.

P12 C4-G5 will beat ½ bps narrow. M17 D#3-G5 beats ½ bps slower than M6 D#3-C4.

So we have a progression of three RBIs from slowest to fastest of M3 D#3-G3, M17 D#3-G5, and M6 D#3-C4.

…..

Since these are tests, not just checks, inharmonicity will not affect the results. And if for some reason the 4th is narrow, the justness of the other intervals and the RBI progression is opposite.

I hope this is what you were looking for, and I hope one cup of coffee is enough to say it correctly!
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1388736 - 03/05/10 09:12 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Kamin and Jeff, Grandpianoman and I expected you to say what you did. If every pianist for the last 20 years for whom I have tuned this way perceived what I do the way you do, don't you think I would have heard some comment about that by now? Could it not be that your own perception is wrapped up and locked up in the total devotion to temperament equality and it has robbed you of all ability to enjoy music for the way it was intended and expected to sound?

Grandpianoman is a professional musician of the very highest caliber who studied music at the university and earns his living solely as a musician (but is not a pianist). He has a fine home and his very expensive piano is only one of the many fine possessions that he has. Don't you think it is somewhat condescending of you to tell him what is wrong? Should you not allow him to have his own opinion about what kind of sound he prefers? Are you really right and everyone at his home that evening, a group which included other fine and professional musicians are all wrong? Is the entire history of tuning before the 20th Century all wrong? Is only mathematical theory right?

Your opinions, as I said, were anticipated but they will not influence or change anything whatsoever about the way I tune. They will not cancel the session with Randy Potter in June that there will be for me to teach him to tune as I do. They will not prevent this preeminent instructor of tuning and piano technology who has students all over the world and teaches at virtually every PTG seminar and institute from broadening his knowledge and skills and adding what he learns to his curriculum. Do you presume to call him a fool and to tell him not to try to tune this way as you have told me repeatedly and also warned Patrick from Finland of the dire consequences of daring to do anything but what you say is correct?

Is it possible that more and more people, technicians and musicians alike will find these concepts to be musically appealing and leave only you to express your dislike of them? Was Peter Serkin wrong when he wrote his long letter that was published in the PTG Journal? Is PTG also wrong to present that idea for tuning, far more unequal than mine with far more dissonance versus consonance than mine at the next PTG convention? Is everybody who likes these ideas, finds them appealing, wants their pianos tuned this way wrong and only you are right?
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1388757 - 03/05/10 09:30 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
.....

Don't you think it is somewhat condescending of you to tell him what is wrong?

.....


It would be condescending if that is what I did. That is not what I did. However, it is what you are doing, Bill. Rather than saying what you or others simply prefer, as I did, you are saying that my preference is wrong. You are being hypocritical, Bill.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1389480 - 03/06/10 06:54 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: UnrightTooner]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Frankly , I was disappointed, expecting something more coherent, more fun, more resonance.

Those recordings have been uploaded exactly for that purpose, so everyone can have an idea of how it tones and eventually comment. (thank you again) in fact it was so strange that at some moment I thought I will not comment, as probably some others will to not sound rude.

I simply state what that tuning provide to me in terms of musicality or listening pleasure. It is perfect, if some enjoy it, it does not worry me , why would it ?

But thats just me, and I am also listening with "perfect pitch" which does not help when it comes with uneven temperaments.

But for instance I appreciate those recordings in Well or Werckmeister III, etc : http://www.pianoteq.com/listen_historical .

They make sense to me, musically.

(I also appreciated what you did with that small spinet that the pianist recorded, and what PPat recording in EBVT)

My impression is really about disequilibrium in harmony - voila, sorry - but I agree with the way some ET are bland and not having enough harmony sometime, I listened to a perfetcly tuned Steinway recently, a concetr for CHopin anniversary was given in Poland, Chopin concertos, with orchestra.
Lot of stretch , so the piano pass above the orchestra, , crispness,) but little harmony. While listening I understood what I had find with Alfredo "Chas" approach, and it missed me in the listening.

Those sensations of lack of harmony may well be the origin of your quest for something different, and better.

Best wishes
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#1389637 - 03/06/10 11:15 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Olek]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
You are apparently in the minority, Isaac. I heard a few moments of the Beethoven sonata in Werkmeister III and had to turn it off. It sounded terrible to me. What puzzles me is that you seem to like a recording that has a far more unequal temperament than the EBVT III, far worse unisons and octaves that scream. It is the way I tune for everybody and nobody yet has ever said what you did. Instead, I get phone calls, e-mails, thank you cards in the mail, cash gratuities and technicians on this list wanting to learn how to do it the way Jim Coleman, Sr. and Randy Potter have. I am not tuning for you, so it doesn't matter to me what you think and your opinion will not change my practices.

I am eager to hear how well Grandpianoman can restore the tuning using the data I gave him. That, after all, was the main purpose of the trip.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1389667 - 03/06/10 11:59 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4217
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
So first of all we are told that we should wait for Grandpianoman to post the recordings of the tunings ok?

Then these tunings are posted .People chime in and give their opinions. Then when an unfavourable opinion is posted that is not liked by the people involved in the tunings procedure they are jumped all over.

There is a reason that Isaac and Jeff are in the minority. Some of us realized this “set-up” and refuse to participate in yet another reason for you to continually promote yourself and your own work Bill.

If your ego will not allow you to take honest opinions of your work then you have not learned much about life or this business.

If you cannot take constructive criticism then perhaps stay out of camera range.

Why do you think some of us refuse to comment on this project?

It is quite apparent to me now that you are not interested in honest opinions Bill you are only interested in praise.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1389686 - 03/06/10 12:30 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 584
Loc: Atlanta, GA
A shame that the tuning was partly lost.But I do like the Debussy and Scriabin recordings very much.

Bill, are you still tuning in the earlier EBVT's, too? For some pieces, I may like them more. Please don't take offense--I just wish there were more recordings using those, so we could compare them to the EBVT III.

Isaac makes an interesting point about a wide stretch being used so that a piano can ride on top of an orchestra. To get the treble high, the middle is stretched, too? It doesn't have to be, but often is? And EBVT wants, in part, to bring back more harmonious sounds, and thus uses a few pure 5ths in the middle?

But let's not get into an argument over one temperament being better than another.

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#1389691 - 03/06/10 12:38 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Dan, I already know that you, Emmery, Jeff and Kamin are ET only people and what your opinion of anything but ET is, even if you never heard it. So, what is new? For 20 years I've been told by technicians that what I am doing is wrong and have been warned not to do it. So, what else is new? I don't care what your opinion is. If you don't like it, I don't care. I only care about what my customers think and about helping other technicians to learn how to tune ET, the EBVT III and octaves which is what I have been doing for many years. One more time: I don't care what you think. So, if you don't want to comment, don't comment! Don't comment on why you don't want to comment either because I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU THINK!

For all of those who "realized" what the "set up" was, leave room for those who are actually interested. I already know what your opinion is, so you do not need to take the trouble to write it. Your opinion will not change my opinion nor will it change the opinions of those who pay for my services. Your opinion will not change in any way whatsoever how I choose to tune the piano. So, don't bother. You will be wasting your time and energy and accomplish nothing.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1389702 - 03/06/10 12:55 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21673
Loc: Oakland
The tuning sounded decent. The piano sounded mechanical.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1389703 - 03/06/10 12:57 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4217
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
No one is trying to change anyone’s opinion of anything here that I can see. No one stated that you are wrong either.

The definition of a “forum” is for the free exchange of ideas, techniques and opinions.

If people cannot share their honest opinion without you becoming a child of 5 years of age then this forum ceases to function.

I have seen you claim to be a musician and artist.

A true artist will paint a picture, produce a canvas or write a song. A true artist will then present this to the public.

There will be supporters and detractors. A true artist will take this all in stride. After all it is art. Some will like and some will not. Get a hold of yourself Bremmer, grow up and act like a professional.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1389749 - 03/06/10 01:45 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Jake Jackson]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Jake Jackson
A shame that the tuning was partly lost.But I do like the Debussy and Scriabin recordings very much.

Bill, are you still tuning in the earlier EBVT's, too? For some pieces, I may like them more. Please don't take offense--I just wish there were more recordings using those, so we could compare them to the EBVT III.

Isaac makes an interesting point about a wide stretch being used so that a piano can ride on top of an orchestra. To get the treble high, the middle is stretched, too? It doesn't have to be, but often is? And EBVT wants, in part, to bring back more harmonious sounds, and thus uses a few pure 5ths in the middle?

But let's not get into an argument over one temperament being better than another.



Thank you for your comments and questions, Jake.

The loss is actually quite minimal but that is why I am interested to learn how well GP can restore it and make use of the data for the future. Any studio recoding session would have a technician on standby to restore a tuning at the slight hint of deterioration.

I still use the original EBVT on occasion but not the EBVT II. The only difference between the original EBVT and the EBVT III is that F#3 and E4 are both sharpened slightly. (The EBVT II has only E4 sharpened). However, think about all of the intervals related to those two notes: The pure 5th, F#3-C#4 is now tempered. The pure 4th B3-E4 is also now tempered. The F#3-A#3 M3 and the E3-G#3 M3s are slower, less harsh but the D3-F#3 and C4-E4 M3s are faster. The original EBVT has more of an early 19th Century character than late 19th Century.

The way the octaves are tuned is not so mysterious but a smooth curve from a calculated ETD program won't do exactly the same thing. Think of it this way: What would an aural tuner do when tuning octaves from a temperament that was intended to be equal but for whatever reason, did not turn out as expected?

Let's say too that the tuner did not know any rapidly beating interval checks. The tuner would first tune an octave, then compare the corresponding 4th and 5th below the note being tuned (thinking of tuning upwards from the temperament octave). The tuner may try to improve slightly any tempered 5ths. The more a 5th is tempered, the wider the octave may be tuned to improve the 5th.

If the 5th was pure or nearly so in the temperament, then it would require little or no stretch in the octave to make the octave, 4th and 5th agree. The idea in the high 4th and 5th octaves is to have no objectionably beating 5ths. Therefore, when the note D5 is tuned, for example, G4 below it was already sharpened slightly to improve the C4-G4 5th and that made the G3-G4 octave certainly wider than the G#3-G#4 octave because the C#4-G#4 5th is pure. The D4-D5 octave must be made wider yet for both the C4-G4 and G4-D5 5ths which are contiguous to both sound good. The D3-D4 octave can't be very wide or the D3-D5 double octave would be overly wide.

When tuning by ear, it is all easily heard and done. But a calculated tuning would tend to stretch all notes in both directions upon a smooth curve.

Once the note F5 is reached, the double octave is compared with the octave and 5th below it. Both are made to be equal beating. Because the 5ths in the EBVT III are all tempered by differing amounts, this also means that all of these double octave and octave and 5th comparisons will vary in size (width) from one to the next. The difference in widths however is still always very slight and is generally not perceived in a musical context. Only careful interval checks would reveal them.

Once F6 is reached, the triple octave and double octave and 5th are compared analogously to the way the double octave and octave and 5th are from F5. Triple octaves and double octaves and 5ths are tuned as equal beating to the top.

This is a very good way to tune treble octaves in ET, by the way. By ear, you would do the very same thing but because all of the 5ths are tempered alike, there would be far more consistency from one octave to the next.

The Bass is handled very much the same as the treble, only a mirror image of it.

Now, all of this can be approximated with an ETD and I do it this way sometimes but it is never quite as good as the aural method. Enter the correction figures for the EBVT III (or EBVT) and tune according to the calculated program from C3 to F5. Now, play all of the 5ths chromatically starting from C4-G5. When you encounter a 5th that beats a little too strong for your taste, sharpen the upper note of that 5th in your ETD program by 1 cent. Tune to that and check to see if that made the improvement you wanted. Usually 1 cent will do it but a little more or less may be what works. You won't want to make a tempered 5th completely pure, just improve it. Sometimes, all I really have to do is fix D5. The rest are usually OK. Whatever you change, enter that change in the program.

When you get to F5, reset your partial selection to the 1st partial (F5 read on F5). Play F5 as it has already been tuned and stop the pattern. Now play F3 and A#3 and adjust the cents up and down until the pattern rolls or moves equally sharp for F3 and flat for A#3. Whatever the cents reading is, enter that an tune F5 to that.

You can continue the very same all the way to the top but I recommend that at F6, return to F3 and A#3 for the readings. What this does is tune those high treble notes to the actual inharmonicity from the temperament octave. It will give you a beautiful and very in tune sounding treble and high treble. It won't match the calculated stretch at all but it will tune the piano to itself and that is what makes it sound so good.

You'll find that with practice, it will not take very much time to find those values from F5 to C8, only a few extra minutes that will be well worth it.

For the Bass, the ETD will most likely already read on the 6th partial but if not, use the 6th partial for all notes from A0 to B2. Starting downward at B2, play alternately B4 and F#4. Find the point where the pattern shifts equally for both notes and enter that reading in the program and tune B2 to it. Continue that way to B1 and then go back to B4 and F#4 again and tune that way all the way to A0.

This method can be used for ET of course, any quasi ET or any Well Temperament or 18th Century or later temperament. For the very early temperaments, it is better to use only the double octave as beatless idea.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1389779 - 03/06/10 02:13 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Here, for anyone interested is the temperament Peter Serkin likes. The figures in the Journal are not the offsets to use with and ETD calculated program. They were measurements of aural tuning. This temperament will work well with a calculated stretch because it is a meantone temperament. In meantone, all 5ths are tempered alike, so you don't have the problem there is with an irregular WT like the EBVT and EBVT III.

It is the Jean Baptiste Romieu 1/7 comma meantone with one modification, the E-B 5th is pure. That mitigates the harsh side of the temperament just enough for Serkin's liking. He is touring the country using it. The key of A-flat sparkles with energy. The minor keys with four or more flats are very dark and disturbing. Excellent for Rachmaninoff's and Fauré's darker pieces. All 17th and 18th Century music have the proper tonal character. Dissonant chords in Jazz are all the more incisive. Show tunes and standards are superbly singable.

Grandpianoman, you will want to try this some day! Just use the RCT or Tunelab default stretch.

C: +3.0
C#: -1.0
D: +1.0
D#: +6.0
E: -1.0
F:+4.0
F#: 0.0
G: +2.0
A: 0.0
A#: +5.0
B: +1.0
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1389944 - 03/06/10 07:29 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 790
Loc: Sarasota and Naples, FL
I have found this discussion interesting, and eagerly listen to any sample recordings.

However, I have a problem listening to and evaluating the tuning (temperament) if the unisons are out, and unless I am overlooking something I haven't heard a recording that is really good enough to be evaluated. Am I the only one? I realize that the tuning drifted before the recording could be made.

While we all know the importance of a good temperament, it is the unisons which are critical for fine tuning and some think they are the most difficult aspect as well.

I realize that the tuning drifted before the recording could be made. Hopefully next time it might be recorded after
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