It's interesting that two out of three essentials of a piano are the same as a guitar and the violin family (and other stringed instruments).

Guitars would be the closest because the strings are struck or plucked - often with a hard object such as a fingernail or a pick.

When I was much younger, I played the ukelele, and my favourite pick was felt (why does this material seem familiar? ).

What has often struck me is that more than a few digital pianos have a sound that resembles a guitar. Of course if we think about the physics of the two acoustic instruments and how the sound is produced by the physics, the similarity is less surprising.

As you say, "build it, people will try it, and if it's good, people will buy it".

This will be the test, not whether it meets the criteria of any expert. This must not be construed as a put down on anyone, it's just a statement of reality.

As with any instrument that produces pleasant musical sounds, the real test is that the sounds are pleasing; not what the instrument looks like or how it produces these sounds.

I think Roland (and Pianoteq) are on to something, and the rest had better try to catch up.

Glenn

I've tried the Pianoteq demo version for the past several days. It is very nice to play - responds smoothly, but, it is not accurate in terms of what a piano should sound like. So, it's off of my list at least until the next major version is released.

I'm hopeful for the V-Piano, but of course it's not yet available to try out. You can't really judge based on compressed audio from online video, and I frankly have to laugh at comparisons between the V-Piano and Pianoteq. How can you compare? You can't until the V-Piano is actually available for us less fortunate to try out!

However, I personally know someone who was privy to the private demonstrates of the V-Piano at NAMM, and I have great faith and respect for this individual's opinion.

His observation? It is absolutely mind-blowing what this piano does and how pure a sound it can produce. What's great about V-piano is that you can make sound EXACTLY the way you want, on a note-by-note, hammer-by-hammer, string-by-string basis.

So, it will be interesting to get to try out the V-Piano (and also the Pianoteq update when it arrives). In the meantime, I'm saving my money pile.

Lawrence

Interestingly enough there is an ad to the right of this forum for Wessell, Nickel and Gross composite action parts.

I am not familiar with them but it seems to fit in this discussion.

Most of the shops here in the UK are now advertising V-Piano for £4,999.00 GB pounds. Ouch!
It has ETA of April 2009.
There is another 10 minute video to watch about it here .

So how realistic DOES it sound?

Does anyone have a list of exactly what parameters the user can edit?
I'd like to know if you can adjust the string's overall sustain duration and peak attack to average level ratio for a struck string.
I like the fact that you can make your adjustments over a specific keyboard range only, unlike Pianoteq where everything is global and you keep fighting it because tweaking the bass messes up the treble, etc. Roland have got it right in this respect.

Does anyone know what digital audio rates it supports? It obviously has coaxial S/PDIF output, which we would expect to be a full 24 bit wordlength true stereo signal, but I wonder if it can generate 96kHz or 192kHz output from the theoretical maths processing going on?

What is the virtual listener's position with respect to the audio generated?
I assume they've at least included player perspective plus a distant / ambient audience perspective, as seems fashionable these days. It does have some built in reverb / ambience effects, which are likely to be convolution based. It would be nice however (if the ambient soundstaging were also the result of pure mathematical modelling rather than a sampled convolution reverb (which would defeat the object by colouring the whole audio with the convolved audio recording of the sampled reverb impulse anyway!)) if the listener perspective was user adjustable in a virtual 3D environment whereby you could move your "ears" up / down, closer / further away and all around the virtual modelled instrument using your choice of (X,Y,Z) axis Cartesian co-ordinates in millimetres.
But I doubt that the V-Piano model maths includes such spatial radiation patterns from the instrument into a virtual environment like this.
That would be ideal for totally customisable stereo soundstages, and even 5.1 or 7.1 surround perspectives, although the V-Piano doesn't have any 5.1 outputs of course so obviously the technology isn't there yet.

So far, I haven't heard very much mention about the piano's spurious mechanical noises, as Roland's theoretical model seems to begin with a felt hammer striking a string? I'm sure they have included pedal squeaks, key movement knocks and scrapes and so on, but I don't remember seeing it.
To me when I close me eyes and listen to V-Piano demos the bass and middle of the keyboard sound great (extremely convincing) but just at the top octave or two of the keyboard I can somehow tell it's a digital instrument and not quite real.
Obviously, this could just be the low quality internet video's compressed audio track messing up the sound, but I that should probably degrade everything similarly, not just the high notes only, so maybe I am hearing something of the V-Piano's sonic character, but I'd certainly need to play the actual instrument to make any serious judgment.

Joke - if they're really gonna make a realistic digital piano, it should gradually go out of tune and "age" to a duller tone if you play it continuously for years.

Musician's Friend..5,999.99 ETA June/09..

High-resolution audio demos for V-Piano

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2009/02/02/wnamm09-v-piano-soundfiles-uploaded/

Quoting Sonic State:

“Since we put the exclusive demo of the V-Piano on line from NAMM where we were ushered into a private room to see the new keyboard, we've had several requests to post higher resolution audio files of the session. Thanks to the marvel of modern technology, we did record them to a separate stereo recorder and have indeed now posted them at 44.1/16-bit for you.

Once again, thanks to John Maul for the great demo and Sean and Amanda from Roland for making this possible.”

propianist, provided you didn't mind AC3 compressed audio, the S/PDIF on the V-Piano connect theoretically output surround sound.

Cheers,
James
x

Interesting what you say. You say a lot...
Nobody talked about the timing of this "machine".
For me it sounds on the demo like the same as many other older digital pianos: Playing more than 5 Notes at the same time will not make sound those notes in the same time, you'll have always a "prrrrrrp" as chord instead of a clear "one shot" like on a real piano.
The fact, that in all those comments NOBODY talked about this, makes me belive, that nobody is fully aware of this difference.
As long as we have this serial timing- desease MIDI, we'll have this problem.
I've read about newer technologies than MIDI that can do a lot of things more now, but they are obviously also not good for reducing the serial "prrrrrrr"- problem...

angelvoice, may I please ask you to point out in which of the video clips (and at what point) the arpeggio effect that you describe is most noticeable?

I strongly doubt that Roland would ever release a product with such an obvious limitation.

Furthermore, while you are correct about the technical barriers imposed by the dated MIDI standard, I also doubt that the V-Piano utilises MIDI for internally generated sounds, so this should not be an issue.

Remember, Roland have been in the musical instrument industry for many many years - I fully trust their engineers to deliver an excellent product.

Kind regards,
James
x

I've briefly tried the V-Piano.

I liked it lot more than I thought I would. For example, the single notes in the "Dewster test" sounded very drab to me. When playing it for real, I didn't notice as much of this drabness.

Other points:
- It has the metallic quality that I like a lot. It really sounds like STEEL strings vibrating.

- I like the richness of the slow phasing, as the notes evolve, presumably due to slight unison detuning. It has a sort of "vocal" quality to it - like it's trying to speak to you. It also often has a kind of mournful, wailing sound, which I find quite infectious.

Greg.

Greg,

I've just got rid of my V-Piano (must change my signature!)...I found it had an odd cocktail of ingredients. No so much good and bad but exceptional and annoying is how I would put it. Key action, connection of keys to sound (playability), tonal change according to velocity, the bass (wow!), editability, perceived quality (keys, case, finish etc)...all exceptional. But, tonally annoying to be honest. The midrange has a kind of synthetic timbre that, once noticed, drills into your head until you can't stand it. I'm overstating it actually but it really began to bug me. I was in denial for a while considering what it cost me but you can't live with something that makes you feel like that. So after much begging on my part the shop treated me very well and gave me a credit note...now spent on a RD-700GX with Supernatural upgrade and a soon-to-arrive HP-307 in polished ebony. To me the RD is more pleasing, more of the time, than the V.

I have aired my views about the V-Piano with others at the shop and with Roland personnel and whilst no one told me I was wrong all everyone kept saying was "I'm not hearing what you hear". I've come to the conclusion that for most people that don't over-think it the V-Piano is a fantastic thing for what it can do as a musical instrument in the purest sense. For those with a definite idea of what they want sonically from a piano, it may not be the one...it certainly wasn't for me anyway. I'm sorry about how it turned out...I really wanted to love it, I tried to love it. I think it has carved itself a little place in history though.

Cheers,

Steve

Steve, it's a shame the V-Piano didn't work out for you.

But wow, an RD700GX and a top of the range HP-307 in Ebony Polish?!
You lucky bugger!

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts about how the keyboard action and piano sound (with the SuperNatural board in the RD-700GX) compare.

Cheers,
James
x

Steve, on my visit to the East Coast of Canada, there was one dealer that had a V-Piano on the floor, and it was heavily discounted...apparently it had been returned, and traded for an Avant Grand N3.

The store owner said he wasn't pleased with the instrument, especially after all the hype....and he's usually one who plays a Roland.

My buddy Zeke has a friend who just bought an RD-700 with the SuperNatural, so we're getting together over the weekend for a jam, so I'll get to play it through a Yamaha Stagepas 500 stereo PA we have set up at Zeke's.

That will be a great test for it...in a small combo situation.

And you got an HP-307 as well...cool! You got a good deal.

I'd be interested if you found the keys (especially the whites) as rough feeling as I did. The one I played was a demo, and may have seen a bit of harder than normal use.



Snazzy

Thanks James and Snazzy!

Well my plan was to have the RD and a CP5 when they're out but...well, it's a long story! CP5 or its successor is probably what I'll go to in a couple of years...

Snazz, when the RD-700 is upgraded with the SN board it powers up to the SN Grand Piano 1 voice. I like it but it is little bit brittle sounding in the upper mids...I like all the SN pianos to some degree but my fave is the SN Grand Piano 4 with the key touch set using the key offset parameter to half way between medium and hard. I'm really liking this voice. The V-Piano is already a memory - I wonder how long the shop will have it before someone buys it. Notwithstanding perceptions about its tone, I think the Roland people must look at the CP1 family and be horrified that they didn't have the foresight to get stuck in with some cutting edge Rhodes sounds...whatever Roland may do in that regard, ie, devise new vintage EP patches, it will look like playing catch-up with Yamaha, which is ironic because at first the CP1 made it look like Yamaha was the one playing catch-up!

I prefer the Yamaha synthetic ivory to Roland's. Roland have lately made a subtle change to their Ivory Feel information sheet that comes with relevant pianos...it seems to me that they believe the slight change that occurs over time to the key surface is just a characteristic of the material. From what I've seen on shop floor pianos it might be that dirt on peoples hands acts as an abrasive, wears the textured finish a little bit then gets ingrained in the porous key surface...just my theory. They have apparently improved the formula of the plastic but whatever it is I think it is inferior to the Yamaha stuff (which also looks more natural to me).

James, the 307 should be here later this month...comparing it to the RD will be interesting but I expect them to be more or less the same. I don't have a preference between PHA II (RD) and PHA III (V-Piano/307), they are both pretty good, PHA III slightly more crisp I would say. The main difference is the extra sensor as per Yamaha GH3 for quicker repetitions...that sort of stuff is well beyond my meagre talents to discover though!

Cheers,

Steve

+1

Cheers Steve!

By the way, don't forget to update your signature line!

James
x

@propianist

You can adjust individual notes with Pianoteq Pro.

Pianoteq is my favorite to play. It is true, it does not sound exactly like a real high end grand.

I find myself switching back and forth between Pianoteq and Ivory, and sometimes TruePianos Diamond, depending on the style of music I play.

If I'm playing for an audience (i.e. guests in our home) I always fire up Ivory. That seems to be the most pleasing on an audience's ears. I also enjoy it more for classical pieces. However, if I'm playing a ballad or slow jazz piece for myself, I play Pianoteq (M3 mostly and occasionally C3), because it envelopes me and I "feel" the piece more than with Ivory. Sometimes I bring out TruePianos Diamond for pop and up tempo jazz.

The main suggestions I have for the makers of Pianoteq are the following: 1. Listen to the bass in Ivory, make Pianoteq sound like that. Ivory has a rich, deep, real bass. Pianoteq's bass is sluggish sounding. 2. I want to hear strings in the mid-range of pianoteq in the M3 and C3, but not the banjo-like strings of the rock piano mode.

I really wish Pianoteq and Synthogy Ivory would get together and combine the lush resonance and decay of Pianoteq with the realistic samples of Ivory.

Sorry if this is a tangent off the V-piano topic. I've heard recordings from the V-piano, which to me sound like Pianoteq, but I've never played one.

In this clip ("Chick Corea Akoustic Band - How deep is the ocean" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB7EEpB-uoE I can hear the same kind of thin, phasey sound in the middle registers that I think the V-Piano is reproducing well. I.e - many of the notes sound like the unisons are almost completely out of phase, causing hardly any sound at all, and the V-Piano has this. (I don't know how much of this is due to micing?) It gives the piano real character - I like it.

Here's a V-Piano recording which I think exhibits this character (but not quite to the same extent): Águas Cristalinas versão piano ( Marquinhos Gomes )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgkOVbMh9kA

Greg.

Nice comparison.

Hi,

For those that missed it on another thread, here is a link to my shared folder of V-Piano demos in decent quality, some featuring the "Evolution" voices:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=23fab7ed7f98c959d9d5c56d04dfa8b0c5c196e935b665a1ea4ac78345cbe4ce

Cheers,

Steve

.

I think that is most likely because of the speakers you used and how they were set up. Speakers are always the weak link with digital pianos. When I tried the v-piano the store had them connect to a pair of m-audio monitor speakrs that were worth less then 1/10th the price of the piano. That's a poor way to sell pianos. I would have connected it to the best audio system available at the store and likely sold a lot more pianos and sound systems.

With enough care and money you could have very good sound live.

Yes I agree 100% that the v-piano is best for recording. I think that is what it was made for (Notice the S/PDIF fiber optic output)
I think the target market for a v-paino may not be the home piano market. It is best suited for use by a music producer in a studio that has limited space and the producer wants to fine tune the piano sound to match the music. That adjustably would be very valuable in a small studio that does all kinds of work. The big guys can keep three grands and an upright on casters and can afford a stack of $2,000 microphones. A single v-piano can replace multiple acoustics and those mics. There are more of these small recording studios than you think. I could walk to three of them from my house. Radio spots, tv commercials corporate training videos and you name it all need recorded music. and then bands need demos and so on.

.

The Guitar Center on Pico Bl. Has a room of sound reinforcement gear adjacent to the digital piano room and they sell PA gear that would be fine for a 5,000 seat venue. The store is huge, two large floors.

Never having played a "D", how would you compare the action on the V-Piano to a Steinway? I know the PHA-III is very different from my Yamaha P155. The Yamaha keys seem to be more damped than Roland's

Other then the P155 I get to play an older Kawai digital and infrequently a Kawai grand. Even for a beginner like myself it is not all that hard moving between those three. I think the p155 or a cp33 if you did not need speakers or a Kawai CN22 would make ideal "occasional practice instrument" All of those are at least $4k less than a v-piano.

My experience, as well, when auditioning both the V-Piano and CP1. I tried these instruments out at several different stores, and in all cases they were hooked up to crappy, underwhelming monitors. Talk about mismatching audio and DP's.

The rule of thumb for years when buying a home stereo system was to spend half the budget for speakers. The rest of the budget on "sources and amp" But now days most people will us an iPod as the source and the price of amps has gone way down. So now I say "2/3 of the budget on speakers". But beginners never listen. They like to blow the budget on fancy looking electronics and use cheap speakers. Few see the value of $1,000 speaker but for some reason like to buy $1,000 A/V receivers.

Guitar players know the sound is in the speakers and endlessly debate which brand is best or if you can mix two brands and on and on. Must guitar players have strong opinion about speakers. But digital piano players seem to be stupid about speakers and sound. I think this comes from piano training. We are told that piano players just play "whatever piano is there" They don't haul their grand pianos with them. So gear is not an issue. But DPs are different but even so your average Keyboard player is clueless about speakers and amps where as guitar and bass plays live by them.

I think anyone buying a DP for other than home practice or hobby use needs to think about spending a large fraction of the total budget on audio gear. But just like the beginner stereo people they won't. They buy a $2K piano and get some $200 speakers and then complain that DPs just don't have the sound and range of an acoustic.

Hi there,

May I ask a naive but essential question? How trustworthy is this instrument if a pianist does practive while in travel? I mean, older instruments I had like A-90 and HP-530e were of unacceptably poor quality materials, resulting in broken parts within a few years...!
The features are nice, the touch superior but how long it will last? And if something is broken what are the delays and prices associated? Just compare against a conventional grand.

Thank you
Antonis

Compared to an acoustic grand?? Could even take an acoustic grand with you? I know how hard it is to travel on an airplane and multiple cases of scuba and underwater video gear. That would be trivial compared to trying to check a grand piano at the baggage counter.

Even a digital piano is not easy to travel with. first you need a heavy and expensive shipping case with built-in wheels and they will hit you with a $50 to $100 over size baggage charge every time.

I was just talking about this very problem with someone last weekend. He's been playing piano for many years but now has to travel a lot and is looking to take up a second instrument just so to have something to play when stuck in a hotel room. Putting his Yamaha P120 in a case was not acceptable to him. Guitar seems like a great idea.

I am surprised nobody has come up with a modular keyboard yet, shouldn't be that hard to do something that breaks apart in 2-3 pieces (so it can be transported in regular luggage) and that you can reassemble quickly at your destination.

The Traveler Escape MK-II series is what I'd buy if I had to travel a lot and wanted a guitar with me:

http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/produ...itar?sku=513815
http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/produ...itar?sku=513813
http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend.com/...itar?sku=513816

That short scale bass looks really sweet. The spruce top is a bit off-putting though.