Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 24 of 52 < 1 2 ... 22 23 24 25 26 ... 51 52 >
Topic Options
#1443221 - 05/25/10 07:59 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Olek]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3225
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Kamin

In that sense=' the second tunings tone way better. it does not mean it is due to EBCT, unless the way the treble and bass are expended is considered part of the EBVT temperament.


I consider the way the octaves are tuned to be just as important as the temperament. An ETD program can't tune the octaves correctly for any well temperament, not just the EBVT, in my opinion. The ETD program will work for a Meantone but not correctly for Well Temperament.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
(ad PTG 568) Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
#1443325 - 05/25/10 11:35 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT


I consider the way the octaves are tuned to be just as important as the temperament. An ETD program can't tune the octaves correctly for any well temperament, not just the EBVT, in my opinion. The ETD program will work for a Meantone but not correctly for Well Temperament.


Can you expand on that Bill? I do not understand why that would be so. 4:1, 2;1, 4:2 and 6:3 octaves should not care about the temperament. I do see that you can't blindly throw 3:1 in the mix because of the unequal fifths.

Kees

Top
#1443634 - 05/25/10 07:53 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: DoelKees]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3225
Loc: Madison, WI USA
It is because I tune double octaves and octave-fifths equal beating. Since the fifths are all of different sizes, a smooth stretch curve will not accomplish that.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1443689 - 05/25/10 09:34 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
It is because I tune double octaves and octave-fifths equal beating. Since the fifths are all of different sizes, a smooth stretch curve will not accomplish that.


I'm glad this came up again. I've been meaning to ask. smile

I understand that your octave method is appropriate for EBVT, EBVT III, ET, and other modern tunings.

Would the tuners of old routinely use the same method that you do to set octaves with any well temperament?

Thanks,
-Joe


Edited by daniokeeper (05/25/10 09:45 PM)
Edit Reason: clarification
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

Top
#1443709 - 05/25/10 10:28 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
It is because I tune double octaves and octave-fifths equal beating. Since the fifths are all of different sizes, a smooth stretch curve will not accomplish that.

I understand EBVT is designed for this, but if you'd apply this to Vallotti or WM3 for example the fifths would change size and you'd end up with a different temperament in the upper/lower octaves. Is that your intention? It may be a good thing, I'd like to think more about it.
Originally Posted By: dianokeeper
Would the tuners of old routinely use the same method that you do to set octaves with any well temperament?

Instruments of old had negligible inharmonicity and octaves were tuned beatless (2:1 = 4:2 = 6:3).

Kees


Edited by DoelKees (05/25/10 10:29 PM)

Top
#1443719 - 05/25/10 10:58 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: DoelKees]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Thanks Kees! smile


Edited by daniokeeper (05/26/10 12:25 AM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

Top
#1443898 - 05/26/10 09:30 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: DoelKees]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Originally Posted By: dianokeeper
Would the tuners of old routinely use the same method that you do to set octaves with any well temperament?

Instruments of old had negligible inharmonicity and octaves were tuned beatless (2:1 = 4:2 = 6:3).

Kees


Sorry, I laughed at this. How would older instruments have negligible inharmonicity? Were they made with perfect strings of near-zero diameter? Maybe I'm missing something here but this seems totally incorrect to me. Yes maybe some modern instruments are designed to have more inharmonicity... although I'm not sure why, but all pianos and harpsichords ever have bad inharmonicity, and so their tuners would have had to deal with it.
My guess is good tuners of old would have tried to tune octaves in such a way to produce a good sounding piano as a whole. Whether they would have quantified this octave in a particular way is difficult to tell.
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

Top
#1443929 - 05/26/10 10:24 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: DoelKees]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4190
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Instruments of old had negligible inharmonicity and octaves were tuned beatless (2:1 = 4:2 = 6:3).
Kees


I have instruments in my client base from the 1800’s that have plenty of poor mathematics in the scale.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

Top
#1444008 - 05/26/10 12:35 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Phil D]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I am glad I you find this amusing.

I was talking baroque harpsichord. Very thin strings, low tension makes low inharmonicity. iH is caused by bending stiffness. A hpschd string is like a hair compared to a piano string. The only reason piano strings have relatively high iH is because they are thick. They are thick because people want the piano to be loud. High iH is an unfortunate side-effect.

I tried to measure for you but the iH is too small to be measurable by tunelab.

Kees

Top
#1444222 - 05/26/10 06:04 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: DoelKees]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4190
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
They are thick because people want the piano to be loud.
Kees


The only reason that piano strings are a larger diameter than harpsichord strings is because people want the piano to have more volume?

If this was actually true then why didn’t they just install larger diameter strings in the harpsichord to begin with?

I will have to let the good folks who actually manufacture pianos know that they have been wasting their time all along……

_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

Top
#1444279 - 05/26/10 07:46 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
They are thick because people want the piano to be loud.
Kees


The only reason that piano strings are a larger diameter than harpsichord strings is because people want the piano to have more volume?

If this was actually true then why didn’t they just install larger diameter strings in the harpsichord to begin with?

I will have to let the good folks who actually manufacture pianos know that they have been wasting their time all along……




I'm not sure why you try to quibble about obvious facts or what your point is. Hpschd has thinner strings because there is less string tension, hence no need. Why on earth would anyone want to install large diameter strings in a harpsichord? Early fortepiano's also had less string tension and thinner strings, hence less inharmonicity.

Similar things happened with the violin. Baroque violins have gut strings, less tension, and are softer.

Kees

Top
#1444309 - 05/26/10 08:36 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: DoelKees]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3225
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Should we buy Dan a harpsichord kit and let him put piano wire on it so he can find out the hard way what would happen?

Kees, the first historical temperament I learned to tune was the Vallotti. I equalized the double octaves and octave-fifths when I tuned it too. That created octaves of dramatically different widths. You either have double octaves equal with zero cent 5ths or you have double octaves stretched to where they beat equally with octave-5ths that originated from 5ths that were 4 cents narrow. The results would be quite different from simply putting in the cents deviation for the Vallotti temperament into the ETD and doing what it says. That would make the pure 12th wide and the tempered ones too tempered. Think about it. It is a good illustration of why I don't use a calculated stretch.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1444326 - 05/26/10 09:05 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Should we buy Dan a harpsichord kit and let him put piano wire on it so he can find out the hard way what would happen?

Kees, the first historical temperament I learned to tune was the Vallotti. I equalized the double octaves and octave-fifths when I tuned it too. That created octaves of dramatically different widths. You either have double octaves equal with zero cent 5ths or you have double octaves stretched to where they beat equally with octave-5ths that originated from 5ths that were 4 cents narrow. The results would be quite different from simply putting in the cents deviation for the Vallotti temperament into the ETD and doing what it says. That would make the pure 12th wide and the tempered ones too tempered. Think about it. It is a good illustration of why I don't use a calculated stretch.


I understand. I could probably compute the custom irregular stretch, but I probably should instead check this out aurally. I have machine tuned Vallotti (actually Lehman-Bach, almost the same) and didn't notice anything wrong. I used 4:1 octaves though. Also, the size of fifths doesn't matter so much I think, they are just the size they are to get the M3's as desired. The pure ones are pure just for tuning convenience for me. That's of course just my own feeling.

Kees
Kees

Top
#1448418 - 06/01/10 10:28 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: DoelKees]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1299
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
I haven't posted on this subject in a while, but thought the following link might be interesting to some of you. I have a particular interest in how we perceive things, specifically light and sound. I personally believe the universe can be expressed by mathmatical formulas and a good example is temperaments and tuning. I think we perceive symetrical objects as being more attractive than nonsymetrical objects. In fact a study was done that found the one factor that dictates if a person is viewed as attractive or not is the symmetry in their face. In other words, the left side matches closely with the right. I find EBVT III to be very symmetrical as it progresses through the scale. That's the big difference I find as compared to ET, although I do like ET also, but probably because the beats progress in an anticipated manner.

I also have an interset in Fourier transform, or Fourier analysis which describes things as a synthesis of repeatable events, or periods, like a series frequencies. I'm very intrigued why we as biological living organisms experience emotions, both bad and good, when we hear certain combinations of frequencies. I found a lecture online by Brad Osgood of Stanford University on the subject of Fourier transform and thought some of you may be interested. You can skip the first 16 minutes because that's just a intro to the course. The main points are made at approximately minutes 30:00 and 34:00, but the whole thing is worth while. It helps put EBVT in perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZNm7L96pfY

Hope you like it.
_________________________
Do or do not. There is no try.

Top
#1448512 - 06/02/10 12:43 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Ralph]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Can someone point me to the complete EBVT tuning recipe? Bill's website has the setting of the temperament octave, but how to proceed from there, i.e., precisely how are the octaves to be tuned?

Kees

Top
#1448518 - 06/02/10 12:57 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: DoelKees]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Kees,

Bill posted this in another thread:

"I don't have on my website yet a detailed description of how to aurally tune the octaves but I do have in my files some material that would be helpful. I have yet to edit that material for the general public. I can send what I have now to anyone who would be interested by e-mail. The address is: billbrpt@charter.net"

Hope this helps...

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

Top
#1449078 - 06/02/10 09:27 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Cinnamonbear]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1299
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
The secrets of the universe are concealed in a simple (or not so simple) temperament. We perceive the universe in time not frequencies, but the universe is built on frequencies not on time. Music gives us a link between the two. We can experience things through music that are otherwise kept hinden from us. It's the perfect link between art and science.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO3kgwYzp...&playnext=1

I think it's the main reason temperaments are so personal to us. It challenges all of our experiences. The math is way above my ability to understand.
_________________________
Do or do not. There is no try.

Top
#1449209 - 06/03/10 02:10 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Ralph]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Ralph--
I just watched the video. I need a fox trot! eek

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

Top
#1449258 - 06/03/10 04:57 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Ralph]
Mark R. Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2007
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Ralph
I find EBVT III to be very symmetrical as it progresses through the scale. That's the big difference I find as compared to ET


I disagree respectfully. In fact, I would view ET as more symmetrical than EBVT. All the ratios (intervals) of the C major or minor scale are repeated in the C# maj/min scale, the D maj/min scale, etc. - whereas in any WT or UT, they are not.

Originally Posted By: Ralph
I found a lecture online by Brad Osgood of Stanford University on the subject of Fourier transform
[...]
It helps put EBVT in perspective.


How? Would the time or frequency analysis of a C maj chord in EBVT look (significantly) different than that of an ET C maj chord?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

Top
#1449316 - 06/03/10 08:50 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Mark R.]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1299
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
I think it would. I think the rapidity of the beats would look different and that's what gives the feeling of "color". The frequencies would be very close, but the number of beats per second would not be so similar and the beasts are a periodic function which oscillates or repeats over time. It's those beats that create the essence of a temperament.
_________________________
Do or do not. There is no try.

Top
#1449370 - 06/03/10 10:07 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: DoelKees]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Can someone point me to the complete EBVT tuning recipe? Bill's website has the setting of the temperament octave, but how to proceed from there, i.e., precisely how are the octaves to be tuned?

Kees


Kees,

I found this while I was poking around this morning. It is a link to a thread Patrick Wingren started when he first tuned in EBVT III. There is a post by Bill on page 1 that goes into detail about octaves. Scroll down about half way to find it.

"Learning EBVT: 1st attempt" thread started by Patrick Wingren

Hope this helps! smile

--Andy


Edited by Cinnamonbear (06/03/10 10:21 AM)
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

Top
#1449723 - 06/03/10 07:05 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Cinnamonbear]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Hi all,

been busy with a lot of grades, a vespa, and a green house. I will spare you the details smile

Anyways, I'd like to cross-step a bit and draw attention to "The Pianist Corner" of PW. Andy (AKA Cinnamonbear) started a thread in that forum, and it's been quite a ride!

I personally learn a lot just by writing over there. Bill posted there too, and in three paragraphs he kind of nailed it. This is what he wrote:

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
It is a Well Tempered idea. That means that the key of C Major sounds the most quiet and harmonious. With the addition of each sharp or flat in the key signature, the key tonality gains energy. This is principally found in how fast the Major Third beats.

Most people today would find the pure or beatless Major Third of the ancient (1/4 Comma) Meantone Temperament to sound "dead" or "flat", lacking resonance. Even if that were to be found appealing, the consequence of "spending it all in one place" is to have completely dissonant intervals elsewhere.

The idea behind true ET is to mitigate all dissonance which it does but the consequence of that is to also deprive all consonance. So, knowing that there was at least some margin of deviation from ET that almost anyone would find acceptable, I strove to create a well temperament that would retain some consonance but also limit the amount of dissonance to what would be found to be acceptable to contemporary perception.


One great difference between tuners and pianists are which intervals that really matters. Tuners will dwell on fifths beating so many beats in so many seconds. Musicians really don't. It's more about the fifths sounding good. What really matters to musicians, though, is the brightness of the M3rds.

I know the relationship between thirds and fifths is clearly connected in tuning theory - one gives the other. Still, this difference in what we listen for amazes me. I can't help but thinking that it has something to do with properness, what "should" be. And I can't help it… coming into the tuning scene from a musical background, I still listen less to "the perfect intervals" than the sweeter, "leewayed" M3rds wink
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1450499 - 06/04/10 10:07 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Here's the "pipe organ effect" on my Heintzmann upright after I tuned it with my tunelab EVBT plugin:

Pipe organ effect

Does it sound about right?

Kees

Top
#1450522 - 06/04/10 10:52 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: DoelKees]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Kees, are you sure that is NOT a real pipe organ??? wink

That sounds like a real pipe organ. smile

Interesting....my piano did not have as pronounced a pipe organ effect as yours. Bill explained that low inharmonicity pianos seem to have less of this effect.

Top
#1450690 - 06/05/10 09:11 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3225
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Kees, Thank you very much for that! It really does sound like a pipe organ to me. It is interesting how each piano seems to manifest it slightly differently. For some reason (and I do think it has to do with low inharmonicity), I have been somewhat disappointed with the effect on Mason & Hamlins. Nevertheless, when I review GP's tuning on July 1st, I will see if I can pull a little more of that out of it. It is amazing sometimes on little pianos such as Andy's, how well it comes off. Yesterday, I tuned a little Indonesian made Kawai grand and wow!, if only I could have had a recording of that!

It seems to me that when I line up the highest partials of the midrange with the 7th octave, that is where I get the greatest effect. It produces this "whistling" effect that sounds like organ pipes. GP's piano has very soft hammers. The 7th octave doesn't have much brilliance to it but I don't want to mess around with the voicing. My time will be limited and I don't want to risk creating a change that I will regret and cannot reverse. A little grand like the small Kawai probably has some fairly high inharmonicity and the high treble hammers are very hard, producing a clear and bright tone. When those notes are played, they excite all of the upper partials of the strings below them and create the effect of organ pipes.

Now, GP, you may want to ask Ari Isaacs what kind of voicing technique he would recommend to bring out a little more brilliance in the high treble. If he is at the convention, I will ask him too. If that is something Randy can work on before I get there, I would be more comfortable with him doing it than I would be.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1450902 - 06/05/10 03:52 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1299
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
I think Ari uses plexigass/acetone to voice hammers and it works very well. The plexiglass is softer than lacquer and easily reversed. It also doesn't have nearly as much impact noise as lacquer. You also can see the results in about 30 minutes, unlike lacquer which takes days before it's finally hardened. The technique however is different. Plexiglass deosn't really build up the hammer the way lacquer does. It's much thinner and less dense.
_________________________
Do or do not. There is no try.

Top
#1450960 - 06/05/10 05:47 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Ralph]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Ralph, that is correct. I don't want to go too far with hardening the hammers, as both player mechanisms play the piano with a lot of energy, hence the hammers will naturally harden with time, as they have done so far.

Bill, I have talked with Ari and he is going to send me the plexiglass beads which I will mix with acetone and go from there. He has told me how to do it, and said it's not difficult to do and is easily reversible, so we should be in good shape for your visit.

Top
#1450978 - 06/05/10 06:47 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1299
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
I've done this many times myself and the key to success is go slowly. Use a dilute solution. You can test it by putting a drop on the back of your hand. It should dry into a faint white crust. I use the softest plexigalss I could find from Home Depot. Works great. Even if you get it on the strike point you can bring it back, but try to keep it on the shoulders just short of the strike point. It works itself under the felt. You can best see it by looking at the side of the hammer as you apply the solution.

A word of caution. If you use a small brush to apply it, make sure its an unpainted brush handle. The paint on the brush handle will dissolve in the acetone, run down the brush and stain your hammer. It doesn't affect the sound but it looks very amateurish. I use a small eye dropper.
_________________________
Do or do not. There is no try.

Top
#1451042 - 06/05/10 09:34 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Ralph]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3225
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Well, thanks guys. I am actually quite familiar and experienced with all of that. Some 25 years ago, I bought a sandwich sized baggie of ground up keytop material from Pianotech when it was a new company. I still have more than half of it left. That is how little it takes.

I have used the Plexiglas beads before but only in a solution given to me by a rebuilder when the client wanted more brilliance. That rebuilder has used Isaac hammers and other makes of hammers that start out soft but gain brilliance with use. I asked the rebuilder to give me the solution, that way I could not be blamed for over doing it.

In GP's case, it is only the top 8-12 hammers that do not speak quite well enough. Many manufacturers saturate those top hammers with hardener. This is often the advice I hear from expert voicers. The very top hammers are not the same as the whole rest of the piano. They must be really hard to get much tone. They are not played as much as the rest of the piano, so waiting for them to gain some tone of their own accord would take longer than the rest of the piano.

So, as in my previous experience with Plexiglas beads, I will defer to what Ari says is the proper amount of beads to mix with the proper amount of acetone for a LIGHT mixture. I use the "hypo-oiler" applicator from Schaff Piano Supply. I believe in building up the tone with several light applications rather than one or two heavy. So, GP, if you could have some solution already pre-mixed when I arrive the evening of June 30, I can give it the first application that evening and we will hear what the results are the following morning.

What I would expect to hear is just a shade of improvement. Two or three more applications can then be applied as we are working with the piano that day and once a level of improvement that is just barely satisfactory, that is the time to stop. It's like cooking scrambled eggs, stop when they aren't quite done yet and by the time they are served, they will be just right. The acetone dries quickly yes but there is still a prolonged cure like 10% further brilliance that occurs with more time. A hair dryer can be used to accelerate the drying of any particular application.

My only reservations were to not do something that Mr. Isaacs would disapprove of and the fact that I could not transport acetone with me on my trip. I can, however bring an empty hypo-oiler bottle and seeing how everyone seems to agree on this, I would have no problem bringing up the tone just slightly of the highest end hammers. That and a re-examination of the stretch in the 7th octave should bring out the pipe organ effect as best as it can be.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1451088 - 06/05/10 10:36 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1299
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
Actually Bill I have no doubt you know how to voice. I thought GP was getting brave as was willing to give it a go by himself. No guts no glory. Nothing a new set of hammers can't fix. grin
_________________________
Do or do not. There is no try.

Top
Page 24 of 52 < 1 2 ... 22 23 24 25 26 ... 51 52 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Marche Funbre d'une Marionette
by Minnesota Marty
09/21/14 10:09 AM
Tired and groggy
by PhilipInChina
09/21/14 08:26 AM
Digital piano key noise
by bigsmile
09/21/14 03:15 AM
Hans von Bulow's piano
by phantomFive
09/21/14 01:57 AM
Rubinstein teaching style
by phantomFive
09/21/14 01:52 AM
Who's Online
115 registered (255, 36251, aesop, 34 invisible), 1169 Guests and 17 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76260 Members
42 Forums
157664 Topics
2315825 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission