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I had my first piano lesson the other day (not my very first one) anyways...
The teacher said I was playing to surfacy..just using fingers, not utilizing the natural weight of my arm...he is right...my playing sounds...shallow...
Anyways, he was right...my playing is not full, rich...etc. Anyways, can you recommend good exercises to overcome this? Any good dvds or lessons on the internet to help re-inforce that playing not just about fingers doing all the work?
#1390274 - 03/07/1009:12 AMRe: looking for full rich sound..
[Re: keyboardklutz]
Pogorelich.
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3765
^ I find that a little problematic only because I think you are sitting way too close, thus cutting off the weight at your elbows. I don't think a beautiful singing tone can be achieved like this - I mean it would be fine, but not ideal.
OP, ultimately you have to play all the way from your back. That's where the big sound comes from. Or 'music comes from your stomach' - have you ever heard that? The two ideas are connected. Don't sit too close to the piano, but not too far either, and not too much into the bench. The weight has to be transferred from your back, through your arms into the keyboard. With a firm bridge (of the hand), not collapsing the fingers.
I'll elaborate more later, must run now.
_________________________ 'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'
#1390285 - 03/07/1009:41 AMRe: looking for full rich sound..
[Re: Pogorelich.]
keyboardklutz
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
^ I find that a little problematic only because I think you are sitting way too close, thus cutting off the weight at your elbows.
You can't access the weight of your upper arm - its mass/force is wanting to pull the hand away from the keyboard towards you. The weight from the upper arm is only accessed from raised shoulders which is for playing very powerfully indeed - then the shoulders drop their weight as well.
It's actually about scales, but there is a strong focus on arm weight. It contains a lot of photographs and basic exercises. The author also utilizes the idea of a "firm bridge".
Unfortunately, it is not that cheap and only to get from this website (as far as I know).
^ I find that a little problematic only because I think you are sitting way too close, thus cutting off the weight at your elbows.
You can't access the weight of your upper arm - its mass/force is wanting to pull the hand away from the keyboard towards you. The weight from the upper arm is only accessed from raised shoulders which is for playing very powerfully indeed - then the shoulders drop their weight as well.
Neither can you access any notable weight by dropping from the wrist. It channels the vast majority of the energy AWAY from the point of contact at the fingers. I'm afraid your ludicrous flapping movements are a lot of complete nonsense. The more aligned the wrist, the more energy can be transmitted via weight about the elbow. The wrist should not be rigidly locked to achieve this transimission, but the more you flap it about, the more inconsistent the transimission of energy - as clearly evidenced by your lack of control over the sound. Such an exercise is purely for those who have locked up wrists. It has virtually nothing to do with creating a full tone. If anything, it's likely to lead to an awful lot of vagueness, if taken literally. Trying to use a drop of the wrist as a power source is a ludicrously inefficient way to play. This can easily be demonstrated with recourse to physics.
As for this even sillier idea of literally dropping the shoulders, instead of using a slight push, I really hope you're joking now...
The author also utilizes the idea of a "firm bridge".
What is the point of holding a 'firm bridge' after the chord/note has sounded?
So it supports? And so you can play the next note without having to reform the shape of your hand from scratch with literally every tone you play? You rarely see anyone other than amateurs who flop their hands into full relaxation between chords- and usually very bad ones, who are incapable of playing at rapid tempos without coming under real strain.
So what you're asking is whether he maintains the comfortably supportive shape of his hand after striking a chord (like virtually every successful pianist ever filmed) or whether he lets his sag in the name of relaxation (like yours and that of hundreds of thousands of pianists of rather modest ability)? And the implication is that he ought to switch to the one that produces the kind of results that we see in your expert 'instructional' videso?
The only people who need to relax their hands notably after playing chords are those who haven't learned to strike them efficiently in the first place. Please stop preaching this destructive bilge to others and try learning to manage your own tensions more consistently at source (instead of tensing into an uncomfortable position that cannot be maintained). In the event that you find something that WORKS for you, why not tell us about it? It would be a lot more interesting than seeing you repeat that which so clearly does not...
Yes when the upper body is not not vertical (or at last in equilibrium) the posture is more used to have more pressure, and if the upper body goes away from the keyboard it lighten the arm)
Then when the elbow is close, like there , the weigh come directly from the shoulders, but aint a good posture for fast repetition, more for a temporary more pressured tone.
Sorry to give advice there. The methods you talk about are relatively widely used those days, when the pianist learn first to seat at the piano, then to have its arms "levitating" (meaning in fact that the shoulder is very free and that most of the arm/ shoulder's weight is taken by the muscles located in the back . Then one learn to provide a complete fall of that suspended position. That give a full relaxed tone with lot of body.
The necessity is to have a strong enough palm of the hand (the arch) that is supposed to be able to support and provide equilibrium on any finger for the weight coming from the shoulders , and upper body in some case.
The other source of power is the opening of the arm, from a static position, opening the elbow make the wrist to raise , but also send a strong impulse. Pianists play like that when they have to play a very strong chord without any possibility to raise the hand. That is when you see them literally 'jumping' on the stool; the force come from their feet, legs, and then is accelerated thru the opening of the ankle.
mastering fast moves of the ankle allow to play extremely fast staccato repeated chords. the tone is more abrupt with that force so its uses is to be adapted to the moment in the music : for instance in 4/4 the first note would preferably be played with the weight and the 4 th with the opening of the arm, that allow the hand/arm to raise for the next measure (oversimplification of the idea !)
In France Monique Dechaussee wrote a book on a good analysis of that technique, she had many student, it is in direct line with Cortot, if I am not wrong.
To feel the sensation of the relaxation of the shoulder, hold the muscles of your neck with one hand (left muscles /right hand) like if you hold a little cat, and try to make very tiny circles with the locked shoulder (kind of 0.5' circle in both directions)
Then release , and make circles with the 2 shoulders together, you will feel a freeness sensation in one.
We have lot of constrain in our shoulders and neck those are the first that refrain pianists to have a good tone, and is often due to a bad equilibrium at the seat.
I dont play so well those days , but I have worked and with good teachers. I recall most of their lessons : Good tone first, then music, technical can be embedded in. Sorry for my pour English.
Edited by Kamin (03/07/1003:09 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - Technician - rebuild - concert prep. 25-30 years experience. rebuilding workshop. http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg, perfect pitch
So what you're asking is whether he maintains the comfortably supportive shape of his hand after striking a chord (like virtually every successful pianist ever filmed) or whether he lets his sag in the name of relaxation (like yours and that of hundreds of thousands of pianists of rather modest ability)? And the implication is that he ought to switch to the one that produces the kind of results that we see in your expert 'instructional' video?
The only people who need to relax their hands notably after playing chords are those who haven't learned to strike them efficiently in the first place. Please stop preaching this destructive bilge to others and try learning to manage your own tensions more consistently at source (instead of tensing into an uncomfortable position that cannot be maintained). In the event that you find something that WORKS for you, why not tell us about it? It would be a lot more interesting than seeing you repeat that which so clearly does not...
Cruel but fair?
Agreed, the reinforcement of the fingers and of the arch is a necessity.
Strangely, the strongest "finger" is the little finger (because of the palm muscle, the one used when you shake hand)
a good wrist without stress allow to provide equilibrium, moving horizontally to face the arm
But relaxation moves are useful, also to keep sensations of the relaxed state.
Edited by Kamin (03/07/1003:03 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - Technician - rebuild - concert prep. 25-30 years experience. rebuilding workshop. http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg, perfect pitch
#1390533 - 03/07/1003:05 PMRe: looking for full rich sound..
[Re: Kamin]
keyboardklutz
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
So what you're asking is whether he maintains the comfortably supportive shape of his hand after striking a chord (like virtually every successful pianist ever filmed) or whether he lets his sag in the name of relaxation
Why address this to me? You know you're on my ignore list.
In fact here's a bit of fun from a while back:
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Just to illustrate the sheer importance of a supportive hand, here's Carola Grindea's hand. Do those pronounced knuckles reveal the shape of a 'relaxed' hand, or a shape that has been formed through efficient, well-controlled grip in the hand? I have rarely seen a more solidly formed arch. This is clearly the kind of hand that supports enough at the keyboard to reduce the requirement of extensive balancing forces further back in the arm- in a fashion that (unlike some methods) does not purport to break any laws of physics.
Why address this to me? You know you're on my ignore list.
In fact here's a bit of fun from a while back:
Well, clearly you're of the opinion that ignorance is bliss and have no interest in rethinking the things that might actually lead to improvement in your playing. I'm not critical of those who merely wish to try their best, but for a self-appointed expert in technique, I'm afraid that your ineptitude extends to the point where I am stunned that you would even dare to attempt give out advice in a friendly manner, never mind the tone that you typically take. How someone who doesn't even play to basic undergraduate music college level could see themself as an authority is quite beyond me. Seeing as you're more interested in trying to advise others upon areas in which you have such limited understanding, I'm afraid you can't expect me to reciprocate by ignoring it when you offer shockingly counterproductive advice to others- who, in many cases, are probably more advanced than you will ever be!
As for the "bit of fun" I retract nothing about what I said regarding the arch in that film. I'm just perplexed about the fact that you would form such a supportive arch in that externalised instance, but then willfully seek to release those knuckles into a functionless ball of flaccid jelly that collapses as soon as you actually start to play. Have you really never wondered why you experience such uncomfortable tensions that you have no choice but to flop your arm to prevent strain- whereas other pianists can maintain their structure perfectly well? Or why professionals play with supportive hands that do not collapse after every note- when you don't? If you are not interested in improving yourself then fine, but I'm just puzzled as to why you spend so much time trying to advise others in something that you have such limited first hand experience or ability at. Have you never thought to stop and look to learn to play to a moderately high standard for yourself, before seriously supposing that you are in a position to advise others?
Sorry, but the more I think about it, the more it puzzles me that somebody who plays simple pieces with such staggering effort seems to spend more time on telling others how to play rather than applying these pearls of wisdom to playing properly for themself. Why are you not reaping any benefits, if the advice that you keeping repeating is supposed to be so valuable? Why should anyobody trust you when your advice offers such limited results in your own playing? Not every teacher needs to be Horowitz, but is it really too much to expect the personal experience that comes with having attained mere competence at some point?
But relaxation moves are useful, also to keep sensations of the relaxed state.
Agreed. I think the point is that there is a HUGE difference between perceiving the relaxed state and perpetually seeking to go flaccid between chords- out of sheer incapability of finding a comfortable state of functional support without locking up. The only pianists who have no choice to collapse between chords do so out of pure incompetence. In performance, I should gladly use an occasional relaxation movement if it became necessary in the heat of the moment. However, in practise, merely relaxing from discomfort and continuing is the very last thing I'd do. If you have no choice but to relax to flaccidity, you should never have been so tense in the first place. Simple as that. Work that way and you never learn how to prevent from the most crippling tensions that plague everything. I'd stop to deal with what I was forced to relax from at the source. I certainly wouldn't delude myself that if I merely flopped my hand to recover from the discomfort, it might lead anywhere productive.
To think that going flaccid after tension is the answer is equivalent to saying that it's okay to soil your pants whenever you fancy it, as as long as you remember to clean up after. It's a flawed ethos. The only way to progress is to learn how to prevent such a mess occuring in the first place- not to keep clearing it up after it already happened. After all, at high speeds, you don't even have time to to change your pants...
#1390855 - 03/07/1011:42 PMRe: looking for full rich sound..
[Re: Benny]
Pogorelich.
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3765
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
^ I find that a little problematic only because I think you are sitting way too close, thus cutting off the weight at your elbows.
You can't access the weight of your upper arm - its mass/force is wanting to pull the hand away from the keyboard towards you. The weight from the upper arm is only accessed from raised shoulders which is for playing very powerfully indeed - then the shoulders drop their weight as well.
I don't like using the term 'raised shoulders' because raised shoulders immediately cause tension and a shallow sound, but I see what you're getting at. Sound production comes from the back, through the shoulders and the arms and into the keyboard. I never understood "playing from the back" until last year during a week of masterclasses. When it finally clicked, I was shocked at the sheer volume of my sound - and it wasn't harsh.
If you sit too close so that the elbows are behind your torso all the time, the weight transfer is cut off and at that point you're only playing from your shoulders. Which is okay for certain rep like Bach, but nothing heavy.
_________________________ 'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'
#1390858 - 03/07/1011:45 PMRe: looking for full rich sound..
[Re: Kamin]
Pogorelich.
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3765
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Yes when the upper body is not not vertical (or at last in equilibrium) the posture is more used to have more pressure, and if the upper body goes away from the keyboard it lighten the arm)
Then when the elbow is close, like there , the weigh come directly from the shoulders, but aint a good posture for fast repetition, more for a temporary more pressured tone.
Sorry to give advice there. The methods you talk about are relatively widely used those days, when the pianist learn first to seat at the piano, then to have its arms "levitating" (meaning in fact that the shoulder is very free and that most of the arm/ shoulder's weight is taken by the muscles located in the back . Then one learn to provide a complete fall of that suspended position. That give a full relaxed tone with lot of body.
The necessity is to have a strong enough palm of the hand (the arch) that is supposed to be able to support and provide equilibrium on any finger for the weight coming from the shoulders , and upper body in some case.
The other source of power is the opening of the arm, from a static position, opening the elbow make the wrist to raise , but also send a strong impulse. Pianists play like that when they have to play a very strong chord without any possibility to raise the hand. That is when you see them literally 'jumping' on the stool; the force come from their feet, legs, and then is accelerated thru the opening of the ankle.
mastering fast moves of the ankle allow to play extremely fast staccato repeated chords. the tone is more abrupt with that force so its uses is to be adapted to the moment in the music : for instance in 4/4 the first note would preferably be played with the weight and the 4 th with the opening of the arm, that allow the hand/arm to raise for the next measure (oversimplification of the idea !)
In France Monique Dechaussee wrote a book on a good analysis of that technique, she had many student, it is in direct line with Cortot, if I am not wrong.
To feel the sensation of the relaxation of the shoulder, hold the muscles of your neck with one hand (left muscles /right hand) like if you hold a little cat, and try to make very tiny circles with the locked shoulder (kind of 0.5' circle in both directions)
Then release , and make circles with the 2 shoulders together, you will feel a freeness sensation in one.
We have lot of constrain in our shoulders and neck those are the first that refrain pianists to have a good tone, and is often due to a bad equilibrium at the seat.
I dont play so well those days , but I have worked and with good teachers. I recall most of their lessons : Good tone first, then music, technical can be embedded in. Sorry for my pour English.
I agree with you there. I suck at explaining things!
_________________________ 'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'
#1390916 - 03/08/1001:09 AMRe: looking for full rich sound..
[Re: Pogorelich.]
keyboardklutz
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
I don't like using the term 'raised shoulders' because raised shoulders immediately cause tension and a shallow sound, but I see what you're getting at. Sound production comes from the back, through the shoulders and the arms and into the keyboard. I never understood "playing from the back" until last year during a week of masterclasses. When it finally clicked, I was shocked at the sheer volume of my sound - and it wasn't harsh.
If you sit too close so that the elbows are behind your torso all the time, the weight transfer is cut off and at that point you're only playing from your shoulders. Which is okay for certain rep like Bach, but nothing heavy.
I don't play anything 'big' so elbows rest (not held) at the side for me. For the 'big' sound, 'from the back' as you say, shoulders go up, elbows go up, wrist goes up and KAPOW! relaxing all immediately afterwards.
If you sit too close so that the elbows are behind your torso all the time, the weight transfer is cut off and at that point you're only playing from your shoulders. Which is okay for certain rep like Bach, but nothing heavy.
That's not strictly true, I don't think. If the elbow is back, a rotational force acts just the same as if the elbow is forward. In one case it's more backwards and the case you describe it's forwards. However, physics states that both positions would lead to a vertical component of force that acts in an attempt to return the upper portion of the arm to an equilibrium. Not a terribly big component certainly, but it's there in each case.
However, the question is why would you want to view the muscles of upper arm as nothing more than mere ballast? Did they evolve to be a dead weight? In either case, this force could hardly provide anything terribly substantial anyway. I think you're thinking so much about weight that you're forgetting the muscular action that is so simple and natural for the upper body, when done in the right way. That's where the shoulders and back come into play. They are designed to push and support! You just need to make sure they don't strain in doing so. KBKs problem is twofold. I don't think weight is a big issue. It's about the fact that he is not in an optimal position to get maximum efficency from the muscles and that he is simply not employing the right ones.
I have films of Nyiregyhazi, who many regard as having possessed the biggest, most effortless piano sound in history. In many cases, the shoulder do not visibly move AT ALL when he plays his loudest, most sonorous chords. I wouldn't say that means there's no muscular action from there but using the 'weight' of the upper arm by lifting the shoulders and then collapsing them as a power source? If any successful pianist has ever played this way I should like to see the evidence on film. It's absolutely no surprise that kbk cannot play music that demands big chords. He would strain himself in no time. I'm just stunned that he is so fixed upon a failing method as to keep suggesting it others.
I tried this flopping wrist business just now. It takes all the meat out of the sound, just as you would expect (seeing as it directs the force primarily down through the wrist instead of down through the fingers). Flopping a an unnecessarily raised shoulder into freefall offers little more. I can produce vastly more sound simply by squeezing from the fingers, while keeping the arm free. Please don't take this irrational claptrap seriously for even a second. It's such truly awful advice that it doesn't even deserve to be humoured...
I don't play anything 'big' so elbows rest (not held) at the side for me. For the 'big' sound, 'from the back' as you say, shoulders go up, elbows go up, wrist goes up and KAPOW! relaxing all immediately afterwards.
I'm not surprised to hear that you don't play anything big, in that case. So you are claiming that this is out of choice, rather than the incapability that comes with your ineptitude of approach? If you want this drivel to be taken seriously, go and make one your famous instructional films showing how the benefits of this manifest themselves in your playing. Except this time FOR A WHOLE PIECE. Let's say something relatively straightforward like Chopin's A major Polonaise. If you can play it at a reasonable tempo while demonstrating that this technique does not cause substantial straining and effort, perhaps people will have cause to rethink their impression of you as someone who is all mouth and no trousers...
#1391117 - 03/08/1009:16 AMRe: looking for full rich sound..
[Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Pogorelich.
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3765
Why would it not be true? It causes the weight transfer from your back to get screwed up. And at that point playing big chords could easily become hit. I used to play like that 2 years ago because I sat too close. It got very tiring and the sound was bangy.
_________________________ 'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'
I don't doubt it. I'm just saying that weight is really not the issue there. The only way to use the weight of your back is to literally collapse into the keyboard. I remember the first time I heard pianists talking about the weight of the whole upper body I was very confused. At first I though I just didn't understand, but physics will demonstrate that the concept really is as nonsensical as it initially sounds. I'm still a firm believer that part of the arm's weight is an active component in the force. However, the concept of literally using the back or shoulders' weight is simply not scientifically plausible (just try lifting your shoulder and literally falling onto the keys with it). It's muscular activity that goes on, not gravitational weight. I think the source of the confusion lies in the fact that if you let go of the shoulder and feel the weight of the upper arm, you are better equipped to play into the keyboard without being hindered by tensions in the wrong places. So feeling the weight of your shoulder is certainly good. However, the action of gravity itself simply does not act in a direction where it could offer anything that could be of particularly great direct benefit- unless you put your elbow right out and fall inwards from a great height (and who does that?). The energy it offers is minimal. It just allows other things to work better. Locking the shoulder would often restrict freedom at the elbow- which really can channel the forearms' gravity into the keys (assuming it isn't locked up).
Taubmann's idea of forearm weight is extremely sound. With an aligned elbow and wrist, the action of a relaxed forearm is almost perfectly downwards through the finger (via the rotational movement about the elbow). However, the idea of upper arm weight providing anything notable in a big sound is just not rationally plausible. The model of forces would make no sense at all. It would scarcely act through the fingers- even less so than flopping gravitational energy through the wrist. If you're getting a bigger sound, you're using your muscles better, not gravitational 'weight' from your back.
#1391143 - 03/08/1009:53 AMRe: looking for full rich sound..
[Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Stanza
1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1406
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
The OP wanted advice on making a big sound, and while the physiological discussion is interesting.....
Try this:
1) play a chord in both hands (six or eight notes), and after contacting the keys, keep in contact, and try to shake the piano. This will engage the musculature. Try it a few times to get the feel. Good for big sustained chords
2) For a bigger stacatto sound:
Ever see olympic divers who start backwards with their toes on the platform or board? Place your fingers on the keys of the chord and push off as if you are jumping up into the air like a diver. Again you will get a big sound that can be short or sustained with the pedal if you wish.
Give it a try...
_________________________
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