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#1387896 - 03/04/10 08:38 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: jbx]
surgtech Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/05
Posts: 98
Loc: USA
jbx, did you notice on your HP-307 that D above middle C is clicking? Someone said it on this forum. Please let us know.

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#1387900 - 03/04/10 08:50 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: surgtech]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: surgtech
jbx, did you notice on your HP-307 that D above middle C is clicking? Someone said it on this forum. Please let us know.


T'was I that said the key was clicking...and, actually, the action itself felt a bit looser than I expected, but considering the instrument I played was a demo model, it might have seen a tad more than normal use.

Still, not exactly confidence inspiring.

The "Ivory" keys are too rough for my liking (again, a personal view)...they feel nothing like an actual piano key...certainly nothing like the keys on my Steinway.

Perhaps my expectations were too high, but I wasn't overly impressed with the HP-307.

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1387936 - 03/04/10 09:31 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: snazzyplayer]
surgtech Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/05
Posts: 98
Loc: USA
The one I tried had actually visible roughness on black keys and I didn't like that. I think I'll have to go back and check on that D because I know it will make me crazy if I find later it's clicking.

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#1387939 - 03/04/10 09:36 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: surgtech]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Actually, in the past the Kawai's were the ones with a reputation for loosy-goosiness. The Rolands were the ones with the reputation for the ivory coating wearing off in the first year. The Yamahas seem to be the brand that consistently has the most reliable and solid build quality.

Has anyone paid attention to the relative amount of clickity clackity sound produced by the instrument when being played silently with headphones? There were discussions in the past of the Roland design becoming noisier with age.

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#1387963 - 03/04/10 10:15 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
The RM3 within CA63 has no clickity clackity at all, it's very silent. I cannot state anything about reliability, it's just out for roughly a month.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1387991 - 03/04/10 11:02 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: dewster]
toyboy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 345
Loc: Vermont
Originally Posted By: dewster

The problem is, once a market is dominated by a few large manufacturers all real innovation grinds to a halt. You get a few new features here and there, but never anything revolutionary.

Individuals or small groups drive all the real innovation happening these days.


i understand the "Wright Brothers in the garage" concept of innovation, but considering the expense to develop and relative small market for something like this, it is hard to imagine two guys in a garage saying "hey let's develop a new piano" let alone venture capital being invested. my point was simply that those "large manufacturers" (like them or not, want to work there or not) are the ones with a vested interest in the future of pianos. Japanese companies, for their size, are notoriously innovative and flexible. but what the manufacturers of digital pianos are NOT a part of (save Yamaha of course) is being part of the tradition of the making of an acoustic pianos.

and anyway, it's all a pipe dream. I doubt well see anything like this unless the acoustic manufacturers see some benefit to add some sort of digital aspect.

btw, if all inovation has ground to a halt, it is hard to understand where all the digital pianos have come from in the first place. smile
_________________________
"Everybody gets so much information all day long that they lose their common sense."
Gertrude Stein

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#1388054 - 03/04/10 12:43 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: toyboy]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
I saw some old video footage recently, I believe it was of Dave Smith of Sequential Circuits. He said that, with microprocessors readily available, there was no reason not to have a self-calibrating polyphonic analog synth on the market. He assumed the big guys had to be aware of that too, it was such an obvious and natural conclusion to come to if you worked in the field, and so it was just a matter of time before one would hit the market. He waited years before coming to the realization that no one was going to do it. So he did it, and the Prophet 5 was born, and it was quite a success.

Digital pianos have only very slowly and incrementally evolved from the first Kurzweil K250 in 1984, and I would argue that the lion's share of those changes are attributable to Moore's law than anything else. I think the V-Piano was in response to Pianoteq, otherwise that product would likely have never materialized. PC samplers and modelers have shown anyone who wants to look that it is entirely possible to improve the DP immensely. Yet no manufacturer is stepping up to the plate. If people are still willing and able to pay $5k for a $1 sample set, why should they? If I made DPs and my focus was primarily on profits, I wouldn't be looking that gift horse in the mouth either.
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The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1388250 - 03/04/10 05:32 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: surgtech]
jbx Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 11
Originally Posted By: surgtech
jbx, did you notice on your HP-307 that D above middle C is clicking? Someone said it on this forum. Please let us know.


That is not the case with my HP-307, at least: all keys make a slight clicking noise (for clarity: not in the digital sound, but the action itself is making some slight clicking noise). I noticed that this clicking noise differs somewhat from key-to-key, but not much and the D above middle C is not louder than others on my DP.
I think this click is either from the extra sensor or the let-off simulation mechanism in the action. I do not find it disturbing. It is certainly softer than the mechanical noise that you hear when the key hits its bottom and/or the hammer of the action mechanism reaches its end point (I don't know if these are the correct English words).
I find the noise of the keyboard a little disturbing when playing on low volume. If the volume is on a level comparable to that of an acoustic, I do not notice it anymore. With my closed headphones on a reasonable volume I do not notice it either. My wife does, but it does not disturb her, but I can imagine it would disturb others a little.
I don't remember if the noise of the HP-307 action is louder than that of Kawai or Yamaha, but I am sure the difference is not very big. I also remembered that I found it comparable to the noise of the action of an acoustic: I tried a Yamaha silent piano with the volume set to zero to compare.


Edited by jbx (03/04/10 05:33 PM)

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#1388275 - 03/04/10 06:15 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: jbx]
surgtech Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/05
Posts: 98
Loc: USA
Jbx, thanks for your reply.
_________________________
Andrew

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#1389414 - 03/06/10 03:36 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: dewster]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: dewster
... I think the V-Piano was in response to Pianoteq, otherwise that product would likely have never materialized.


By the same token, the CP line, especially the CP1 seems to be in response to the VPiano. The fact that there is such a huge gap between the announcement and the actual ability to audition or buy one for most people is indicative on a consumer products marketing strategy to try to freeze sales of a competitors product while you desperately play catchup.

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#1389762 - 03/06/10 01:59 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
Nachtschatten Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 27
Loc: Utrecht, The Netherlands
Just 2 cents, I've been able to compare some DP's yesterday and this afternoon. I specifically tested, with headphones, for looping, stretching, note decay, similarness of sound over the whole range, presence of string resonance, 'sustain test'. While the stretching is very audible in the files proposed in other threads, I found it hard to detect when playing myself. Looping however is obvious, now that I know what to search for.

1) CLP380 sounds outdated now. Very audible looping. Nice string resonance. Couldn't really hear the added value of another sample layer. Succeeds the 'sustain test'. Nice keyboard, but I'm not accomplished enough to feel the finesses of the differences between the keys. It felt lighter than the Rolands, and they have of course the escapement. Might be 'saved' by the sound system (from memory, as I played with headphones yesterday).

2) Kawais: can't comment as not available in the Netherlands.

3) HP307: really a step forward sound-wise. No audible looping, nice decay, string resonance very natural. Succeeds the sustain test (most Rolands didn't until now, most Yamahas did). However, the mid-range feels a bit flat and poor (others have described this better). From G6 onwards, there's a metallic 'twang' / quality to the sound, the transition from F6 is very audible. Sounds a bit strange, but could be something inherited from AP's.

4) Other DP's I briefly played (top-of-the-line):
- CP1: some disappointment after all the raves here, at least concerning the main AP sound (didn't play the other sounds / EPs). Overall very nice sound, very equal about the whole spectrum, nice and easy keyboard feel. But: no string resonance, fails the sustain test, even the lightest + softest touch invariably produces a sound (but it shouldn't).
- Avant Grand N3: only had a very brief impression (it's way out of my price range). Seemed to be the overall winner, extremely good key touch + sounds. But I also like the versatility of a DP - being able to play harpsichords, church organs, EP's etc. is one of my reasons to buy one!
- RD700GX with the SuperNatural extension: very similar to HP307, but more (great) piano sounds. No audible looping, nice string resonance etc. Same problems with the mid-range however, plus the change in sound from G6 onwards (applies to all the new sounds). Succeeds the sustain test. Overall a great step forward over the stock sounds. I’ll probably have this one built into an AP cabinet, with a nice speaker system. There’s a shop here in the Netherlands that specialized on that (see my digitalclassic.nl thread). The price tag is elevated (around 5000 Euro if the extension is included), but it’s really tempting as they build a really good speaker system in a really nice cabinet.

Just my opinions…
_________________________
Just ordered an RD-700GX (SN upgrade) within an upright cabinet + nice speakers, looking very much forward to receiving + playing it!

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#1389805 - 03/06/10 02:51 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Nachtschatten]
CruelStrings Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 138
Originally Posted By: Nachtschatten
Just 2 cents, I've been able to compare some DP's yesterday and this afternoon. I specifically tested, with headphones, for looping, stretching, note decay, similarness of sound over the whole range, presence of string resonance, 'sustain test'. While the stretching is very audible in the files proposed in other threads, I found it hard to detect when playing myself. Looping however is obvious, now that I know what to search for.

1) CLP380 sounds outdated now. Very audible looping. Nice string resonance. Couldn't really hear the added value of another sample layer. Succeeds the 'sustain test'. Nice keyboard, but I'm not accomplished enough to feel the finesses of the differences between the keys. It felt lighter than the Rolands, and they have of course the escapement. Might be 'saved' by the sound system (from memory, as I played with headphones yesterday).

2) Kawais: can't comment as not available in the Netherlands.

3) HP307: really a step forward sound-wise. No audible looping, nice decay, string resonance very natural. Succeeds the sustain test (most Rolands didn't until now, most Yamahas did). However, the mid-range feels a bit flat and poor (others have described this better). From G6 onwards, there's a metallic 'twang' / quality to the sound, the transition from F6 is very audible. Sounds a bit strange, but could be something inherited from AP's.

4) Other DP's I briefly played (top-of-the-line):
- CP1: some disappointment after all the raves here, at least concerning the main AP sound (didn't play the other sounds / EPs). Overall very nice sound, very equal about the whole spectrum, nice and easy keyboard feel. But: no string resonance, fails the sustain test, even the lightest + softest touch invariably produces a sound (but it shouldn't).
- Avant Grand N3: only had a very brief impression (it's way out of my price range). Seemed to be the overall winner, extremely good key touch + sounds. But I also like the versatility of a DP - being able to play harpsichords, church organs, EP's etc. is one of my reasons to buy one!
- RD700GX with the SuperNatural extension: very similar to HP307, but more (great) piano sounds. No audible looping, nice string resonance etc. Same problems with the mid-range however, plus the change in sound from G6 onwards (applies to all the new sounds). Succeeds the sustain test. Overall a great step forward over the stock sounds. I’ll probably have this one built into an AP cabinet, with a nice speaker system. There’s a shop here in the Netherlands that specialized on that (see my digitalclassic.nl thread). The price tag is elevated (around 5000 Euro if the extension is included), but it’s really tempting as they build a really good speaker system in a really nice cabinet.

Just my opinions…


Nachtschatten, I get a strong feeling of "hidden' adversitement" from reading your posts. You subtly drop that company's name quite often and your posts feel heavily biased.

Maybe I'm wrong and I apologize if I am

Just my opinion.


Edited by CruelStrings (03/06/10 03:06 PM)

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#1389822 - 03/06/10 03:31 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: CruelStrings]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
@CruelStrings, what kind of comment is that? Please bring up some own experiences rather than doubt others objectivity. Everyone is somehow biased by the way...
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1389841 - 03/06/10 04:19 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: CruelStrings]
Nachtschatten Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 27
Loc: Utrecht, The Netherlands
Hi cruelstrings,

no affiliation with any company / brand / shop whatsoever. Just my, probably very subjective, opinions. From which I make my, probably very subjective, conclusions. I'm far from being an accomplished piano player, others here can detect much more subtle things than I can. I just want to learn from these forums, like probably many others, and make a, hopefully well-informed, buying decision. If I can add some comments here or there...
Yes, at this moment I'm probably leaning towards Roland. As others do towards Yamaha or Kawai, or other brands. As I said, I'd rather have liked to go with a Yamaha, as they have excellent reputation, have a long line of Clavinova success, and are the only ones that don't seem to have quality problems. But I think I’ve made my (own, subjective, …) reasons quite clear.
No, I'm not affiliated with the 'DigitalClassic.nl' shop. Just a potential future, yet still undecided, customer. What else can I say? If you have the time, read all my posts (it’s not that much yet), and tell me where I could have been more objective / unbiased / …

But thanks for asking wink

It’s nice to see how self-regulating 99% of these threads are, thanks kawaian. And if there’s ranting or worse going on, there are always some who put things back on track – which is one of the reasons why I like these forums so much.
_________________________
Just ordered an RD-700GX (SN upgrade) within an upright cabinet + nice speakers, looking very much forward to receiving + playing it!

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#1389870 - 03/06/10 05:19 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Nachtschatten]
Nguyen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 430
Loc: Massachusetts
I am happy to report I have finally made my decision and will update the Prices Paid thread after this post.

I’m not an experienced pianist yet so my inputs here will just be what and how I feel. Sorry I can’t explain them in technical or musical terms like most of you do, I’ll just state how I feel in common language.

I visited 3 different dealers today. One has the CA93, one has the CLP380, and one has the HP-307.

I really like the keyboard of the CA93. As I go back and forward between a Kawai grand and this one, the CA93 feels almost as a grand. Sound wise, not so great. Like I said, I don’t know what it is but it doesn’t give me that wow feeling. So if you’re into gadgets and all that hooking your DP up to a computer and use software, in my opinion, this is the one to get.

The CLP-380 sounds the best to my ears, again, I can’t detect stretching or looping as my ears aren’t well-trained. I just play and listen to how it sounds, and I must say I really like Yamaha main Piano sound on the CLP-380. Its key action is a little bouncy to my taste, and as a student, key action is the most important to me. Compare to the CA93, I must say if I rate from 1-10, the CA93 gets an 8 compare to a grand but the CLP-380 only about 5 or at best 6 key action wise. Again, this is just my own personal touch and feel.

The HP-307 key action gets about 6 or 7 to me but its Grand Piano sounds better than the CA93 to my ears. I only play Grand Piano sound, not any other sound. I keep going back and forth between the HP-307 and a Schimmel grand and it doesn’t feel quite right but I like it better than the CLP380 action. I think PHA III keys are a bit shallower than the other two. By shallow I mean its distance from rest position to bottom is shorter. Maybe it’s just me I just wish it’s a little deep like the other 2 would be great. Though it’s a bit shallower to my fingers, it scores somewhere in between the CLP & the CA. Grand Piano sound is very good to my ears, though I still like the Grand Piano of the CLP380 better.

In the end, I decided the HP-307 is my DP for the foreseeable future and made the purchase.

This thread is great. Thanks all. Hopefully I’ll be happy with this one for a while. I’d really go for the CLP380 if they make its key action like the CA or even the HP despite its cost, $4,700 for a Polished Mahogany, ouch smile I’m sure these key actions will improve one day and I’ll have that itch to upgrade but for now, I really hope I’ll be happy with this HP-307 for several years.

Best,
Nguyen
_________________________
Nguyen - Student Pianist

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#1389882 - 03/06/10 05:46 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Nguyen]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Thanks for your heads up and your impressions! Sounds like a good compromise between the good sound of the clp-380 and the great keyboard action of the ca-63. All the best for your piano studies!
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1389885 - 03/06/10 05:49 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Nguyen]
Nachtschatten Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 27
Loc: Utrecht, The Netherlands
I found the link to the sustain test, thanks theJourney (and kudos to jscomposer):

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/703018/1.html
_________________________
Just ordered an RD-700GX (SN upgrade) within an upright cabinet + nice speakers, looking very much forward to receiving + playing it!

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#1389892 - 03/06/10 05:56 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Nachtschatten]
CruelStrings Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 138
Originally Posted By: Nachtschatten
Hi cruelstrings,

no affiliation with any company / brand / shop whatsoever. Just my, probably very subjective, opinions. From which I make my, probably very subjective, conclusions. I'm far from being an accomplished piano player, others here can detect much more subtle things than I can. I just want to learn from these forums, like probably many others, and make a, hopefully well-informed, buying decision. If I can add some comments here or there...
Yes, at this moment I'm probably leaning towards Roland. As others do towards Yamaha or Kawai, or other brands. As I said, I'd rather have liked to go with a Yamaha, as they have excellent reputation, have a long line of Clavinova success, and are the only ones that don't seem to have quality problems. But I think I’ve made my (own, subjective, …) reasons quite clear.
No, I'm not affiliated with the 'DigitalClassic.nl' shop. Just a potential future, yet still undecided, customer. What else can I say? If you have the time, read all my posts (it’s not that much yet), and tell me where I could have been more objective / unbiased / …

But thanks for asking wink

It’s nice to see how self-regulating 99% of these threads are, thanks kawaian. And if there’s ranting or worse going on, there are always some who put things back on track – which is one of the reasons why I like these forums so much.



Sorry! Did not mean to offend you. My internal brain SPAM algorithm is off center haha.
Thanks for sharing and rock on!

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#1389917 - 03/06/10 06:35 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
Nguyen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 430
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: kawaian
Thanks for your heads up and your impressions! Sounds like a good compromise between the good sound of the clp-380 and the great keyboard action of the ca-63. All the best for your piano studies!

Thanks kawaian. You know I really like the CA93 action. It has the same action as your CA63 but with an impressive soundboard. I think you hit a jackpot with your DP. I didn't get it because I am not into hooking or computerize it at all. If I'm like you, or ChrisA or Dewster or anyone good with computer and pianoteq, then I'd be a proud onwer of the CA93 now. It's a no brainer key action wise to me.
_________________________
Nguyen - Student Pianist

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#1390559 - 03/07/10 03:42 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Nachtschatten]
jbx Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 11
Originally Posted By: Nachtschatten
2) Kawais: can't comment as not available in the Netherlands.


I see this mentioned often. A few weeks ago I did some Googling for shops in The Netherlands that have the CA63 and I found some. To help others, I mention them here, it is not an attempt to spam, I have no affiliation with any of them!

Note: probably there are more shops that have them and maybe not all of them have them, always phone before traveling!!!

http://muziekhuisdera.nl/ has both the CA63 and CA93 on display in Heerlen (close to train station) and also recent Yamaha and Rolands I think.

http://www.pianos-vleugels.nl/ has the CA63 on display in Eindhoven.

http://www.vanurk.nl/ has the CA63 on display in Rotterdam (close to central train station), but has no recent Yamaha or Rolands.

A few others that said they would have them shortly or already had them but not displayed yet. They have them ready maybe now:
http://www.vanoldenielpiano.nl/ in Deventer will probably have the CA63 now, call them first!

http://www.vriese.nl/ maybe has the CA63 in Doetinchem, but not sure.

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#1390972 - 03/08/10 02:25 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: jbx]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Heerlen and Doetinchem are indeed both about 3 hour, $75 train trips from Amsterdam on the German border and these stores seem to be serving the German market as much as the Dutch one. They are the only stores with the ability to compare the Roland and Yamaha products. Those living in the Randstad will just have to spend a day shopping if they want to audition Kawai.

The others listed either have websites that do not work, or very poor reputations or do not have the Kawais actually on display or in stock: the kind of dealers that Kawai unfortunately has been known for here in the past...

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#1390978 - 03/08/10 02:43 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9354
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Still, there's quite a big difference between 'not available locally' and 'not available anywhere in the country'.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1391007 - 03/08/10 04:13 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Kawai James]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
Still, there's quite a big difference between 'not available locally' and 'not available anywhere in the country'.

Kind regards,
James
x
Don't know if anyone was claiming that they were not available anywhere at all somewhere in the country.

However, for the 7.7 million people living in the Randstad, taking a three hour, $75 train trip to audition a piano next to Roland and Yamaha that most have never heard of and that is not advertised or promoted, the difference between "not available anywhere in the country" and "not available anywhere relevant" is very small indeed...

Don't believe me, though, look at your internal sales numbers and warranty cards statistics. Read 'em and weep.

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#1391014 - 03/08/10 04:34 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
jbx Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 11
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Heerlen and Doetinchem are indeed both about 3 hour, $75 train trips from Amsterdam on the German border and these stores seem to be serving the German market as much as the Dutch one. They are the only stores with the ability to compare the Roland and Yamaha products. Those living in the Randstad will just have to spend a day shopping if they want to audition Kawai.

The others listed either have websites that do not work, or very poor reputations or do not have the Kawais actually on display or in stock: the kind of dealers that Kawai unfortunately has been known for here in the past...


I agree it is a shame that there is no store in Amsterdam or Utrecht that has a line-up of Yamaha, Roland and Kawai, but I do not entirely agree with your reply. Van Urk in Rotterdam is a very reputable store. From Amsterdam it is a 1 hour, euro 25 train trip. Indeed, they don't have the top models of Roland and Yamaha on display, but it is a reasonable way to try the CA63. Probably there is some other store in Rotterdam that has the Roland and Yamaha, I don't know about that... not an ideal situation, but better than nothing at all I think.

Both Rotterdam and Eindhoven have the CA63 actually on display, confirmed by phone.


Edited by jbx (03/08/10 04:34 AM)

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#1391022 - 03/08/10 04:47 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9354
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Don't know if anyone was claiming that they were not available anywhere at all somewhere in the country.

I believe Nachtschatten claimed that KAWAI DPs were not available in the Netherlands.

Originally Posted By: Nachtschatten
2) Kawais: can't comment as not available in the Netherlands.

Ah yes, there we go.

jbx, thank you for clarifying the situation.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1391023 - 03/08/10 04:58 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: jbx]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Fair enough, I appreciate this information.

However, based on reputation, I would not buy one from van Urk in Rotterdam, but that does look like the fastest way to audition one without the escapement feature even though you can't do any side by side comparison there -- which of course was the idea of this thread: the "official" playoff between Yamaha, Roland and Kawai's top cabinet style offerings (the CA93) including the Yamaha Avantgrand N2.

Very strange price information on the van Urk site, BTW.
Thomann.de shows the list price with Dutch VAT for the CA63 as euro 2290 and offers it for sale at euro 2168.
van Urk shows the list price with Dutch VAT for the CA63 as 2656 and offers it for sale at 2470.
Stores that don't stock these Kawai models are encouraging people to try them elsewhere and then will order them for you for about euro 2000.

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#1391026 - 03/08/10 05:08 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Well I would say it's worth to "just" play the CA63: The is only little difference between those two models that really matters (at least for me):

- I don't care for escapement, I even tend to like it better without it
- Additional sounds are nothing to rave about
- Well, the soundboard is of course interesting if you intend to play a lot with loudspeakers. But for testing the quality of the internal sounds with a quality headphone is a good alternative
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1391027 - 03/08/10 05:11 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Good points, I agree.
Something tells me I will find an excuse to go to Rotterdam this week. smile

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#1391031 - 03/08/10 05:26 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9354
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
theJourney, once again, I believe I can sympathise with your situation: I desperately want to try the CP1, yet despite being manufactured in this city, it's not available for me to play-test locally! (I've visited the main Yamaha store in town, and cycled to all of the large malls in this area).

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1391034 - 03/08/10 05:30 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Kawai James]
Nachtschatten Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 27
Loc: Utrecht, The Netherlands
I'm glad to see that they are available in some places. Looks like I haven't been looking enough. Also, in the local shops, the sales guys (at least in 2 shops) told me that Kawai had pulled out of the Dutch market. Still, it's not a very strong presence. And to see, e.g., a CA-111 quoted at > 5000Euro at one of the places, while it's available for ~4300 in Germany, doesn't help much either. This is of course before negotiation, but I don't have the impression that it's possible to get as large discounts here as, e.g., in the US.

Maybe Kawai should rethink their strategy for the Netherlands? DP's seem to sell very well here, many used DP's don't stay long on places like marktplaats.nl (except older ones). I'd definitely like to be able to compare all 3 big brands side by side.

The closest shop to me is van Urk in Rotterdam. I might give it a try (but have to find the time). Or if I drive to Wezep again, I might make it a round trip to the 2 other shops that are not too far from there. I don't know anything about the reputation of these shops. I've been to 4 in total here, the one in Nieuwegein and in Wezep seem good to me.

As I said, I've been able to (very briefly) play the CA-111 in Germany. However, at that time I had merely begun my search and could not compare as much as I can now. From memory, the action really felt good (as others have reported here). The concept with the soundboard is really convincing, and I like the hidden controls. I honestly don't remember how I found the sound at that time, and haven't tested for looping, sustain test, general playability etc. I like the Musik Schmidt video - it sounds great there. There's less choice of extra sounds than on other high end DP's and if I remember correctly, I didn't really like the harpsichord + organ sounds (a bit too artificial compared to the Yamahas and Rolands).

Please take my comments with the necessary grain of salt - I don't have a complete overview of the market situation, nor am I accomplished enough to detect all subtle differences between the DP's. And of course, I only report personal preferences.

@cruelstrings: no harm done, the 'spam' lights go on all too often on the web (much less on these forums, though), and rightly so - I sincerely hope no one on these forums buys (or doesn't!) a particular DP or brand based on a single opinion, rave review or heavy criticism.

Cheers
_________________________
Just ordered an RD-700GX (SN upgrade) within an upright cabinet + nice speakers, looking very much forward to receiving + playing it!

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