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Perhaps this has been discussed here before and forgive me if this is redundant. In my long career, one the most formidable, often embarrassing and ultimately time-consuming tasks I ever faced would have to be tuning obstinate Baldwin grands. The pinning on so many Baldwins that I encountered over the years was beyond anything I'd ever found in any other make of piano.
Surely this has something to do with the multi-laminate pinblocks that Baldwin used or the fact that the pin holes were not drilled properly or a combination of both? I was just wondering how other concert techs have managed to deal with this problem successfully. I should elaborate, as well, that I don't mean a long, drawn-out fix in a shop or a customers home, I'm talking about on-the-spot, concert and recording venues when your time is most valuable and limited.
I'm referring mainly to those awful pins that jump with a sudden, loud cracking sound when you try to tune them either flat or sharp. And, no matter how many times you think you're closing in on a good pin-setting, they suddenly jump a half step flat or sharp. I think you know the ones I mean.

I am not a concert tech. I deal with them by using a smooth pull from well below pitch, sometimes faster than I prefer to keep the pin from locking up. And sometimes with flagpoling to equalize the change in pitch when the torque in the pin is released. And, again sometimes, I am able to put some twist deep in the pin without moving the foot and still have stability.

I know exactly what you mean tuner2. They are a beast to tune and I do not have a solution either other than not to refusing to tune them.

I deal with it by limiting my time on it or, not doing it at all. I tune it as fast as possible, do the best job that I can out of it and get the heck out of there before I get to mad at the thing. Dad always taught me that no matter what the brand, the worse the piano tunes, the less time we should waste on it. While I do manage to get them to come out decent one way or another, or at least acceptable anyway, by the time I am finished tuning it, I am always angry with the manufacturer that allowed it to leave the factory that way in the first place.

I got my start in Baldwin's Chicago warehouse. Tuning pin tips would crack and I broke two tuning levers over the years. Most Baldwins were tight, but tunable, but a few were a bear. I'd extend my tuning hammer to the max and go for it. The factory would reject out of size tuning pins, and the good ones got a bath to remove any traces of oil before stringing. When stringing a piano, the RH should be adjusted for. Pianos strung in dry winter months should have looser pins than pianos strung in humid summer months. A very tight pin in winter can be un-tunable in summer.

Thanks very much for your sympathetic input, Jerry. It's nice to know that I'm not alone with this issue. And, I know exactly what you mean about leaving as fast as possible before losing your cool. That wasn't an option many times at recording sessions, and concerts, though.
I'd often feel a horrible combination of anger and
inadequacy whenever I encountered those crazy, unpredictable Baldwin pins. But surely, someone out there has a more acceptable method for dealing with them other than bending the tuning pin? For one thing, it doesn't seem as if that method would provide much of a stable and secure tuning. I always liked to know that the tuning pin was set before I moved on to the next one.
As to "putting some twist deep in the pin without moving the foot and still have stability"....I'm afraid you lost me there,Jeff. Maybe if you could explain that approach in more detail I'd get your drift.

regards,

I have found it easier to allow those really snappy pins that refuse to go where I want, to stay where they want as usually this will be very close to pitch - and stable. Then focus on unisons.
Sometimes it is just not worth the effort to fight a loosing battle.

I'll try.

What I feel and how I imagine what is going on is that when torque is put on a pin, it develops a twist until the bottom or foot of the pin starts to move. This is the only explanation I know of why the pitch often changes when releasing the torque on a pin even when the position of the hammer does not cause flagpoling. But once when the foot breaks friction and starts to move, some of the twist "untwists" and can result in the pitch going too far. Those Baldwin pins are an extreme example of this, and I mention this as a prelude to explaining putting a "deep twist" into the pin.

Not just on pins that really pop but also on pins that are just plain too tight, I have had good luck by getting the foot of the pin reasonably close, and then "leaning" the pin either by nudges or by smooth pull, to a point where light back and forth torque on the pin will cause the string to render equally sharp and flat. The top of the pin is in a neutral torque position, but there is a deep twist in the pin that the too tight pinblock is holding.

So if I get a very tight or jumpy pin reasonable close but the pitch is low when checking for a neutral torque position, I will work the pitch too high with nudges or a smooth pull, but not to the point where the pin will pop. If I now check for neutral torque the pitch will be too high, but this shows me that there is a twist in the pin, hopefully deep. Then I will nudge or pull the pin back down until at least the top of the pin has neutral torque. It has worked very well for me, but only on tight pins. I don’t think normal pins would be able to hold the twist.

I tuned for Baldwin C&A in NYC area for 10 years. [Broadway, Letterman Show, Tanglewood] Wiggle and jiggle the lever to release the upper torsion of the pin. Sometimes I would have to whack the pin with the ball end of the lever to release this upper pin twist. Pull sharp, whack down.

This is one area where I just think that size and strength are an advantage. I'm not a small individual. Still, I sometimes struggled, and over the years developed tendinitis in the elbow dealing with alot of Baldwins. I think that they would have been just basically impossible for some who are more slightly built. As Bob said, most of the time they were overly tight, but still managable. The occasional piano was just a real mother. I had an SF10 at the Aronoff Center here that was such a beast. I broke a tuning hammer on that one...it just snapped in the middle of a concert tuning. I had to drive home and get a replacement. But you know what, that was one great sounding piano once I got it in tune. I use a snap technique. You have to get the pin to move in the block, and then massage the twist out. It's one of those things that you get use to if you have to deal with it a lot.

Thank you all very much for your excellent input. This forum is really a great place. And Roy, if I was still active, I do believe that I would give your "massage" technique a try. That one appeals to me.
Hey there, zissr,.....when were you active with Baldwin C and A in NYC? I was called in to help after Andre's sudden and tragically unexpected death. I did a lot of concert work, "meatball" field work and some shop work for Baldwin from the late 1980s to 2000. I have a feeling that our paths crossed.
If you worked for them during the 1970s, did you happen to know a gentleman named Steve Borrell who was the chief concert tech for Baldwin at that time?

Tight but manageable was always my impression, and given a choice, I like "tight" better than "loose" by a long shot. Some pianos and some pins required a little more fussing, but I always felt that the thing was going to stay put when I walked away.

Dave...I couldn't agree more but, I don't think you may have had the horror of an encounter the really crazy Baldwin pins that we were discussing. And I truly hope that you never do meet one of those obstinate grands. Life's too short.

regards,

Yea, I may have lived a charmed life ... so far. I worked on a SD10 (9' Baldwin grand) that had really tight pins, but I never broke a tuning hammer on one of them.

Dave:

The feel of the pins that we are talking about are really unforgettable. You start turning and it feels normal to start with. The pin will "give" and start moving just like any tight pin, but then it locks up without any give at all until CRACK!!! like breaking glass. The pin doesn't flex a bit just before it pops. Very unnerving. Of course now you're way above pitch. So you bump it down and try again. Once more you're not quite up to pitch, the pin locks up, you apply more torque with nothing moving, and CCRRAACCKK!!! it happens again. Unforgettable.

I don't mind so much the tight pins on grands, but a spinet with tight pins was always a source of frustration! My pet peeve these days are the Asian makers with tight, sticky Ultraflex pins that take forever to set.

I tuned a Baldwin Spinet from the 70's that had the tightest pins I've ever encoutered. At first I thought I was on the wrong pin, since the pitch did not raise. I thought the pin or my lever would break before the pin turned in the block.

I settled on the following style: I held the tip fully on the pin, and slapped the end of the lever to lower the pitch. The pin would make a loud cracking sound as it broke loose.It was as if the pin was epoxied in place. It then took slightly less effort to raise it up. I'm normally a smooth puller style, but it didn't work on this piano. Slapping the end of the lever was the only way I could get the pin where I wanted it.

Has anyone ever broken a tuning pin? I bought an extracter when I started 25 years ago, but never used it.

Yes, once in the mid 70's. I had to return to the piano for other repairs and got an extractor. I think the pin was cracked or something already. I don't remember the pins being tight, even though it was a Baldwin studio. I do remember there was a missing tuning pin bushing and a broken bass string upper bearing pin. It might have been a Monday piano.

I broke a perfectly good #2 star tip once trying to tune one of those crazy Baldwin pins. I find Jeff's description of how they react when you're trying to tune them to be right on the money. And he's so right, it is unforgettable.

I broke 2 Schaff star tips in a short period of time, but the pins were not all that tight. I suspect they were not heat treated properly.

When the first one broke, it creased the head. The crease created a stress riser, and tips started breaking after that. It was an Apsco lever, and I could not get a replacement head.

In the end, I had to buy a new lever.

I wonder if I could find that pin extracter now. Probably not, so I better buy another one not to use.:)

I broke a tuning pin in the treble of a 7' Schimmel recently. That was fun. The owner had called because he had broken a string, and wanted it replaced. The funny thing was that the pin broke while I was letting down tension. It sheared off right at the string hole. I think that the pin must have been bent. As I went to loosen it, it just stuck. Then I tried to force it. There was enough of a stem sticking up. What I did was to use a Dremel tool to square up the sides, and got a star tip onto that. Used a breaker bar for leverage, and out it came. But I was sweating it!

I have a 1917 Baldwin L, 6' 3". I recently had it refurbished/rebuilt/redone, you know what I mean. The Pinblock was replaced and the Soundboard stayed, no problems there. Here's my silly question, will I have these tuning pin problems? I have all new strings and pins along with the new Pin Block. The Action is currently being rebuilt so I haven't had to have it tuned yet.

C

manofsong.....I wouldn't worry about those awful tuning pins showing up in your re-build. The blame for the pins we're discussing lies directly with the Baldwin factory.
I'm fairly certain that a newly installed pinblock in your old Baldwin will tune just fine. But, please do keep us posted about this topic once your piano receives its first tunings.

regards,

Yes, wasn't that problem caused by drilling too fast and burning the wood?
I had an unconcionably long lever from Jahn, the gooseneck type that comes as a set with a screw on handle that I pulled out of my arsenal on these occasions. It is still in the catalog and the whole thing is longer than the footlong I had for lunch. Use the short head with a fairly steep handle at as near to twelve o'clock as possible and lots of thumb pressure. It doesn't entirely erradicate the jumping but much of it goes away, making the job a good bit less frustrating. Perhaps the same effect could be had using an extension lever and the appropriate heads but this one had a bit of flex which seemed to help.

Thank you very much, rxd. That is a very interesting observation and analysis. It really makes a lot of sense, especially in a multi-laminate, Baldwin pinblock (as far as I recall, they have at least 40 separate layers). By drilling too fast, not only would the laminates get burned but the pinblock glue would also be affected by the heat.
This theory leads me to another good question: If a tuning pin hole has been forced and scorched, is it possible to remove that pin and clean up the damage inside of that hole?

Its possible to do this but your run the risk of the original pin coming out too loose in the end if you over do it. A metal gun bore brush has worked for me on slow speed in a drill. The hole has to be cleaned nicely after with pressurized air to remove the wood and epoxy dust.

Because of the inflexible "locked up" feeling of the pin, I can't help but wonder if the problem has to do with the bushing. If the problem was in the block I would expect to feel some give before the CRACK. There is one that I tune regularly that I might try a drop or two of mineral spirits on.

If the block was drilled with twist drill, and you have high speed glazing damage, this will be difficult to get rid of.

Twist drills are not considered accurate by the machinist industry; with wood drilled too fast the fibres of the sidewall in the hole will be torn, very much like cloth. Once this happens, it cannot be corrected.

You might have some luck getting rid of the glazed epoxy by reaming with a hand reamer. Multiple laminate blocks are subject to this glazing problem if not drilled correctly.

I have experienced the cracking problem Jeff describes on early YC instruments too. Actually I have experienced this with several brands of late model instruments from the 80’s forward.

I believe the “ locked up” feeling that you get from some of the tuning pins is the adhesive qualities of the epoxy reacting to the expansion and contraction of the wood block season to season....just my guess there.

The old cure for tight jumping pins was a dusting of french chalk.
I've never done this because of the time factor, it's quicker to just tune the thing for all its faults than to remove pins and all the stability issues connected to this.
Jeff, yes it's worth a try, however, did the larger artist grands have bushings?, I seem to remember they didn't. I might think twice about contaminants directly on the pinblock but it is contaminated already in a way so... if it works.......
Following the burning theory, most of the burn would be at the top of the hole where most of the friction would be for the longest time during drilling so just a mere drop would be enough to cure the condition without soaking in very far.
Thank you Tuner2. I think the burning theory was the Baldwin tech rep's explanation of what had most likely happened in th factory but no cure was forthcoming from them at the time...so.. Regretably, I can't take full credit.

Well, at at least the Baldwin rep acknowledged that the factory was at fault. When I complained (more than once) to the good folks down at the Baldwin Trumann, Ark. factory about this very problem, I received no help or explanation, whatsoever.
So, the jumpiness is caused by burned wood and epoxy as well as by tuning pins that have been forced into holes a little too small for their own good? That's a helluva good combination for disaster.
As far as applying a small amount of a chemical solution, that mineral spirits approach may have some merit. As I stated originally, this is a problem that should have a fix one could do in the field when time is of the essence and a good, solid tuning is essential.
UnrightTooner, if you do give that method a try, please let us know if the results were satisfactory. Also, include how many drops to use and how long to wait before you notice any positive results.
I'm sure that there are still quite a few of these pianos out there in professional venues and I'd like to think that with this forum we can help many techs in the future who encounter these problematic tuning pins.

Yep, I'll let you know. The piano I have in mind might not be tuned again until fall. That's pretty regular around here... But my thought is still the bushing, which this R does have.

I serviced Baldwin for the Little Rock AR Baldwin dealer for around a decade ca.1990-2000. Floor work, sales events at the Conway factory , concert prep SD10/SF10, etc. Never broke a tuning pin, but broke my Hale lever while doing floor tunings on new Acrosonics. Fortunately I had another. Baldwin had great pride in their tight blocks and I experienced much of the same difficulties as has been expressed here and elsewhere. While this may not work for everyone (also I am a lefty) I eventually found that these instruments typically tune the easiest when the least amount of time is afforded the pins to flex. For me this meant a quick thrust and set. With the extension at max for best leverage this provided the least amount of fatigue for me, the lever and the piano. Also the least amount string breakage. Hope this is of some help.

Are those recordings made on Baldwin's ?



http://www.fugue.us/Nyiregyhazi_discography-3_E.html

Thanks .

Nyiregyhazi. Now there's a pianist more people should be aware of. His life would make a helluva movie.

bkw58....Thanks for your reply. Rather than being highly proud of them, Baldwin should have been ashamed of their crappy pinblocks and sub-par pinning, in my humble opinion. Tight is one thing, but super tight, unpredictable jumping pins is altogether a horse of a different color. They simply don't belong in a piano brand of that repute and history.
Also, I recognized that, as their impending bankruptcy loomed ever closer, the pinblock issues worsened. Maybe these pins are the work of a loyal Baldwin employee who knew that his/her job was soon to be terminated?

To an earlier comment, I don't think that Baldwin ever used plate bushings on their artist grands. Not that I've seen.

Baldwin never wanted to have a loose pin, so they set the standard too high I think. There is always going to be variation. These are incredibly dense blocks, so any small amount of difference will be felt in the tightness of the pin. I knew some of the techs at the factory, and I know that they did some testing in the late 90's to try to resolve the problem. They knew it was a problem. The pinblocks were drilled out of the piano, on CNC machines. Sometimes the holes wouldn't exactly line up, so pins would press against the plate. This could have sometimes been an issue with the plate supplier. The holes in the plate were fairly small, so there wasn't much room for deviation. Baldwin did leave Kelly in the late 90's. Steinway bought Kelly soon thereafter. Baldwin started a plate foundry(in Brazil?). One of the things that changed in the new plates was that the tuning pin holes were bigger. That alone made an improvement. I heard that there were some issues with drill bit suppliers as well. I know that at one point they couldn't get bits from one source, and they changed suppliers. The bits would wear differently.

Yes, a couple of times. 1 of them was on an OLD Steinway upright. It broke quite suddenly. I didn't think the tuning pin was turning that tight! What a pain it was to get it out too as it broke flush with the block. Figures. Broke a couple easy outs trying to get the thing out. Finally did. Can't recall the name of the 2nd piano. It was to long ago. That was just as much fun as running around the block 50 times in circles.

I would assume they would break at the hole, so obviously that was a defective pin. But, having never broken a pin, i really have no idea.

I had a couple of them break not flush with the hole too. Miserable thing to have to deal with actually.

I got in here late on this one but I agree that an impact type technique works best because it causes the whole pin and all of the string to move.

As an anecdote, I would say that at the PTG convention in Anaheim, I was presented with such a Baldwin piano for my demonstration. It had been used in the previous period outside in the hot sun. When I felt of it, it seemed to have been in a warming oven! The pitch was over 20 cents sharp. I asked if they could bring a fan to cool it off. They brought a tiny office fan.

I started trying to lower the pitch but it was really impossible to do anything with in the short time I had. I was forced to ask for another piano.

Agreed. Especially toward the end it seemed as though everything worsened. One former Baldwin factory worker says that most problems were a direct result of shortcuts to save on production costs. Another particularly bad problem in their artist series grands was cracking in the treble bridge. Unbelievable.

Does anyone know if the new owners have addressed these issues?

So is it the tight pins, or something else, that often makes older Baldwin Hamilton studio uprights seemingly stay in tune for years on end? I often find Hamiltons that haven't been tuned in several years, yet are just about right on 440, and very close to in tune with themselves. I sometimes even dream of the day when I'll come across a Hamilton that hasn't been tuned since the 1950s, yet its tuning is still so well preserved that it would pass the PTG tuning exam at the CTE level. Of course that will never happen...

Excellent question. Changing focus to the Baldwin uprights: I also experienced this with Hamilton and, to some extent, the Acrosonic as well. The Hamilton featured a 19 ply block as opposed to the 41 ply block in the artist series M, R, L, SF10, SD10. Consequently, tight pins were not quite the problem in the Hamilton. Does an easier tuning translate into a longer lasting tuning? Perhaps. With respect to tuning stability, there are other factors to weigh in as well, not the least of which is change in relative humidity. Did the Northeast AR factory do a better job than the Conway plant at calculating seasoning of woods? If so, this might account for a more stable instrument. The Northeast AR factory enjoyed periods wherein they produced good studio uprights as well as good Acrosonics. And then there were times when the products were not so good. As Baldwin approached bankruptcy, especially did the Hamilton go downhill. It was very sad. (Would enjoy hearing a technical answer to this from someone in manufacturing .)

The problems you all have encountered while tuning Baldwin pianos are traceable directly to the pinblock. I’ve written about this before on Piano Forum but I’ll repeat it here.

The construction of the 41-ply pinblock Baldwin was so proud of is traceable to a resin-treated compressed wood material falling somewhere between Impreg and its close cousin, Compreg, both of which were developed during WWII and were used to make propellers, bearing plates, and fittings for aircraft as well as for aerial and radar antennae for high-speed aircraft. It was also used to replace the aluminum and brass engine stringers in minesweepers.


This material is very dense, heavily resin-saturated and has very little resiliency. It must be drilled exactly on size or the pins will be extremely tight or abnormally loose. There was a period of time when Morse (the drill bit supplier) discontinued the special drill bit used with these blocks. The replacement vendor assured Baldwin that they could supply exactly the same drill bit at a lower cost. Unfortunately they didn’t have a clue about how to grind the special tip geometry that Morse had supplied. The cutting edge of these drill bits was something over 90° so the drill bits had to kind of wear their way through the extremely hard pinblock. As I recall the workers were changing drill bits two or three times on just one block. The clue that it was time to change was the smoke coming from the bit as it was withdrawn from the hole. But even with the best of drill bits these pinblocks were problematic.

I tried to change the construction of the block during my time there but the company was pretty much in denial—there were no problems with their pinblocks. Everybody loved them. There were no complaints. The reality was some different but this was the official line.

I did come up with a new 41-ply (that was essential—it had been marketed for years) block using an adhesive that did not penetrate the wood as much, set with a thinner glue line and required far less heat and pressure. It was a pretty good block in most respects. Unfortunately it did not pass the “boil test.” This test subjected to pinblocks to several alternating cycles of boiling (for about an hour) and drying, then boiling and drying. The new material delaminated after several cycles of this treatment.

I took the rather unreasonable position that if a Baldwin piano were placed complete in a vat of boiling water there might possibly be one or two other problems that would crop up before the delaminating pinblock became an issue. But I was soundly outvoted. As far as I know the Compreg pinblock went on until production finally shut down.

ddf

That's an interesting history and it bears out what I encountered in the field. Some memorable Baldwins tuned beautifully, but most of the thin multi-ply blocks were problematic. The pins jumped, or moved erratically. It seemed to take about twice the effort and time to tune the things.

As has been mentioned, the Hamiltons (45" uprights) with the half-laminate blocks were much easier to work with.

Hamiltons have half-laminate blocks? What is that? And what about the Baldwin/Acrosonic/Hamilton/Howard spinets? What sort of pinblocks do they have? Some of these are very stable once you get a feel for them.

Yes, very enlightening! Thank you, Del. I also now recall the a-j hitch pins as being a source of problems in achieving a stable tuning in Baldwin artist series grands. This too is absent from their uprights (except for the 6000 series) and perhaps constitutes another reason for ease of tuning on Hamilton, Acrosonic, et al.

Ah, but here is a Baldwin "Aquasonic" that may have been designed for such a situation: http://cgi.ebay.com/Baldwin-Aquason...TION-/110572853089?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

The use of vertical hitches should not be a source of tuning instability if they are used correctly. (Not the emphasis on the last five words!)

When I use vertical hitches—whether as a retrofit or as part of a new design—the string height (off the frame, or plate, surface) is specified to be 5 mm or less. With the strings at this level the stress on the plate is about the same as with any other type of back string termination. It is only when the string starts riding up on the hitch that the stresses become problematic.

I view the vertical hitch as a superior string termination system when used properly, not as a means to adjust string bearing if (when?) the plate is installed incorrectly.

ddf

Thank you, Del. My view is based more upon how these instruments seemed to handle especially during (but not necessarily limited to) pitch raise than upon the science behind it. During such I sensed a horizontal movement of the wire on the a-j pins thus creating an added difficulty in achieving tuning stability, but I could have been mistaken. It is hard to argue against science tested and proved. Thanks again.

Well, your experiences are quite valid. If the strings are riding too high on the pins tuning stability will be affected.

I keep the strings very low on the pin; i.e., close to the plate surface. But I have seen Baldwin pianos coming from the factory with the strings riding more than 15 mm off the plate surface. You bet this will affect tuning stability during a pitch raise. I’m constantly amazed that more than a few of those plates didn’t simply shear off along the hitchpin line. Tough plates!

The point I was hoping to make was just that vertical hitches by themselves and used properly do not have to contribute to tuning instability. Used improperly they can, and do, lead to tuning instability.

ddf