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#1387649 - 03/03/10 09:59 PM Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
The idea came up in another thread that it might be fun to start a study group devoted to Chopin's op. 66, Fantaisie Impromptu. It is one of those pieces that everybody says is overplayed yet everyone wants to learn. A number of posters who are at various stages in learning the piece have declared an interest in forming such a study group so now we are making it official with this thread. Everyone is welcome to join!

The goal of the study group is to support each other as we progress through the piece, with people posting ideas, fingering suggestions, questions, answers, practice methods, progress reports, recordings, difficulties, rants of frustration, successes, and shouts of great joy. Experts are invited to chime in!

At the start it might be useful to declare which version of the FI we are learning. I would assume it is the Fontana version since it is the most played.

Some may be starting from ground zero, first measure, while others already have the piece memorized and are in the process of bringing it up to performance tempo. I am among the latter, struggling to achieve a credible tempo. I started an SOS thread a couple of months back and received some very helpful suggestions which are contained here:
S.O.S: How to Speed up Fantaisie Impromptu

I like to listen to many different recordings of the piece I'm learning and so far my favorite is Ashkenazy's...so crisp and clear, the allegro agitato truly agitated. Do you have some favorite performances?

OK, anyone who wants to join or proffer advice, you're on!
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"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1387756 - 03/04/10 12:57 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6075
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Ashkenazy's performance is truly amazing, it is my favourite too.

I have been studying this piece for a couple of weeks now. I didn't have a problem with the rhythm from the very beginning, but super speed is not my forte frown , so now I am trying to reach a reasonable tempo, even if it is not 100% performance level... I am going to read that thread you mention to find some hints....

Now a very simple question... In the middle section (the slower one, Largo) there are some grace notes in the RH. Chopin's grace notes are supposed to be played ON the beat, but these are 4 grace notes... Are they ALL supposed to be played on the beat?

Another thing... I think it would be nice to have a section for study groups. There are links in a post by Frank in the ABF, but no special section, so most study groups get buried under many other posts/threads... But this would be up to the moderators, I don't know if it makes sense to have a sub-forum for study groups, like mini-workshops... confused
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#1387815 - 03/04/10 04:19 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: ChopinAddict]
zxcjason Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 166
Loc: Vancouver, BC
Do you mean on measure 64? From my recollection, most (if not all) renditions I heard played that before the beat. I also play them before the beat, but I have them played relatively slowly and take up most of the beat before (so the E flat wasn't very long). Just my own interpretation though.




Edited by zxcjason (03/04/10 04:20 AM)

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#1388176 - 03/04/10 03:48 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: zxcjason]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6075
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
I prefer it before the beat too... Actually I always prefer grace notes before the beat, I don't know if it is because this is what I first learned. I do it almost automatically and heard only recently that Chopin's grace notes should be played on the beat....
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#1388272 - 03/04/10 06:07 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: zxcjason]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
zxcjason, ChopinAddict: You must have a different version from mine. I don't see any grace notes in measure 64 of my score shown below.
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1388279 - 03/04/10 06:25 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
Brandon_W_T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1940
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
Interesting. I play the Fantaisie Impromptu out of the big book entitled "piano classics" (I have 2 of the "piano classics books"

it looks like this one, but it is a yellow color instead of white.

http://www.boosey.com/imagesw/shop/product/$wm1_0x700_$_AM91728_cov_cov.jpg

They are by far my favorite piano books ever! So many of the most famous works by huge composers ranging from Bach, to Joplin, and everywhere in between, even some fairly unknown artists!


Edited by Brandon_W_T (03/04/10 07:00 PM)
Edit Reason: typo.
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#1388285 - 03/04/10 06:37 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
ChopinAddict Offline
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Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6075
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: jazzyprof
zxcjason, ChopinAddict: You must have a different version from mine. I don't see any grace notes in measure 64 of my score shown below.


I actually hadn't checked.... Now I have, it is the 9th measure of the Largo movement (the first time it appears, but there are other 2 similar measures in the Largo movement)...
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#1388287 - 03/04/10 06:41 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: Brandon_W_T]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6075
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: Brandon_W_T
Interesting. I play the Fantaisie Impromptu out of the big book entitled "piano classics" (I have 3 of the "piano classics books"

it looks like this one, but it is a yellow color instead of white.

http://www.boosey.com/imagesw/shop/product/$wm1_0x700_$_AM91728_cov_cov.jpg

They are by far my favorite piano books ever! So many of the most famous works by huge composers ranging from Bach, to Joplin, and everywhere in between, even some fairly unknown artists!


There is a 3rd book? I asked in my music shop, where I bought the first two, and they said there are only 2 volumes.... cry Now I feel so sad... Yet another book I have to find in Sydney tomorrow I guess... But I cannot find it on the net either... Where is it?

The yellow one is the first volume , right? I love those collections too by the way. Unfortunately I have found a typo here and there, but I have found typos even in more prestigious books...
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#1388295 - 03/04/10 07:00 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: ChopinAddict]
Brandon_W_T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1940
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
Opps! Typo. I have -2-.

Well I know there are at least 3.

When I got my second book (the yellow one) I had to choose between having a lot of Scott Joplin, or a lot of chopin! I of course wanted the more chopin, so I got the yellow one.

And the 2 that I have only have 1 of scott joplin each.
_________________________
______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ

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#1388418 - 03/04/10 09:56 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: Brandon_W_T]
Brandon_W_T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1940
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
This is what gives me hope. Kid I know at school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8G6ebojfEM

laugh
_________________________
______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ

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#1388453 - 03/04/10 11:05 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: Brandon_W_T]
Less Rubato Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 266
Loc: Washington state via OH-IO
Your friend Drew has some big ol' piano playing hands.

Lucky him!!

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#1388506 - 03/05/10 12:06 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
cast12 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 219
I've noticed that some versions of Fantasie Impromptu have a mini cadenza in the slow section. Other versions just repeat the 7:6 part. Has anyone else noticed this difference? (You can see it on page 4 of this score http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/1/....66_1200dpi.pdf and on page 3 of this score http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/2/....66_1200dpi.pdf )

I prefer the version with the mini cadenza, but virtually all pianists seem to avoid it.

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#1388521 - 03/05/10 12:45 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: cast12]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Interesting. I take it you mean this run:

I've never heard anyone play that either. I wouldn't call it a mini-cadenza though, but an improvisational flourish on the same figure that appears earlier. It was probably inserted by the over-zealous Klindworth.
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"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1388544 - 03/05/10 01:21 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
cast12 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 219
Originally Posted By: jazzyprof
Interesting. I take it you mean this run:

I've never heard anyone play that either. I wouldn't call it a mini-cadenza though, but an improvisational flourish on the same figure that appears earlier. It was probably inserted by the over-zealous Klindworth.


What's odd is that many -- if not most -- of the great pianists in the past played the variation. Here are a few performances:

Hofmann: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hg1D_kS9N0

Godowsky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhDC77NhQSs

Bolet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocbbNrUBXog&feature=related

Emil von Sauer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMqzr88QVic&feature=related

I personally think it helps liven the very repetitive slow section.

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#1388547 - 03/05/10 01:27 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: cast12]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6075
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Yeah, it is odd... I don't even have it in my Dover collection of Chopin's masterpieces for solo piano...
And I have it as an "Ossia" in the Piano Collection mentioned in a former post...
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Music is my best friend.


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#1388586 - 03/05/10 03:01 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
zxcjason Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 166
Loc: Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzyprof
zxcjason, ChopinAddict: You must have a different version from mine. I don't see any grace notes in measure 64 of my score shown below.


Oops, I meant measure 65.

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#1388588 - 03/05/10 03:06 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
zxcjason Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 166
Loc: Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzyprof
Interesting. I take it you mean this run:

I've never heard anyone play that either. I wouldn't call it a mini-cadenza though, but an improvisational flourish on the same figure that appears earlier. It was probably inserted by the over-zealous Klindworth.


This is very cool! I always feel like improvising a bit at the last third of the largo section (unfortunately I can't improvise), I really would like more variation towards the end.


Edited by zxcjason (03/05/10 03:09 AM)

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#1388589 - 03/05/10 03:08 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: zxcjason]
zxcjason Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 166
Loc: Vancouver, BC
There is another version that Rubenstein played:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Elox0npFTGI

Measure 36 has an extra chord, I actually like this better. Anyone have the score, or know what that chord is?

The left hand in the slow section is also a little bit different, but I don't like it as much.

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#1388826 - 03/05/10 10:58 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: zxcjason]
Hedgeman26 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 72
Loc: Houston, TX
Yes, if you youtube Richard Dowling ( I frequent his music shop and he is a fantastic person and concert pianist) you can see a few performances of his FI where he plays this "mini-cadenza" in the slow section. The reason for this, according to my teacher, is that these type of embellishments were very typical of Chopin and some fairly prominant scholars felt that it was an appropriate addition. Now whether there are any original copies showing this I do not know, but some feel it adds a bit of "Chopinesque" flare to the rather repetitive slow section. I personally do not play it, but it is fairly simple and would be an easy addition for anyone that wants to spice it up a bit.

Cheers,

David
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Currently learning/playing select pieces from Chopin, Liszt, Beethoven, and Kapustin

What use is knowledge if there is no understanding? (Stobaeus)

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#1388941 - 03/05/10 01:19 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: zxcjason]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: zxcjason
There is another version that Rubenstein played:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Elox0npFTGI

Measure 36 has an extra chord, I actually like this better. Anyone have the score, or know what that chord is?

The left hand in the slow section is also a little bit different, but I don't like it as much.


The version that Rubinstein plays is from a manuscript that was in his own possession. That score is included in the Henle edition of the Impromptus before the more commonly played Fontana version.

On the fourth beat of measure 36 the left hand chord is F-double-sharp, C-sharp, E, A; the same as the chord in measure 35, but played one octave lower.

Regards,
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#1390082 - 03/06/10 11:02 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
What do you find most difficult with Fantaisie Impromptu and how have you overcome that difficulty?

For me the greatest challenge has been that run in measures 7-8. It is beginning to respond to treatment through a variety of techniques: breaking it down into small segments, practicing in rhythms, shifting accents, speeding up with metronome.

What are your challenges?
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"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1390093 - 03/06/10 11:23 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
Brandon_W_T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1940
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
I was just playing the piece today, and Oh my I am improving well!

I am actually getting the hands together. I have the start, 1st 2 runs, then the big arpeggio run up then down, and a measure or two after that. Its the change that I am stuck on right now.

I am also getting my right hand part down where it plays the octaves & notes in between (dont have the score in front of me at the moment!)

Its really starting to come together. I am finding that playing it slow is being a challenge. Almost as if the song can only be learned at full speed! smile
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Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ

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#1390574 - 03/07/10 03:56 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: Brandon_W_T]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6075
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
My greatest challenge was the speed, but I am improving... smile
One thing I really have to eliminate in my playing... There is a tiny delay, the fraction of a second, at the end of some measures, and it should just not be there...
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1390660 - 03/07/10 06:08 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: ChopinAddict]
pianogal37 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 214
Oooh, a F-I study group! How did I not notice this!
For me, the hardest part is the coda, with the speed, rapid dynamic changes, and keeping it crisp.
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Bach French Suites No. 6, Allemande and Gigue, Beethoven's Pathetique, Chopin Nocturne 72/1, Fantaisie-Impromptu, Debussy's First Arabesque, Takacs Toccata Op 54, Rachmaninoff Etude-Tableau 33/8.

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#1390981 - 03/08/10 02:46 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
cast12 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 219


Does anyone know why the suggested fingering for the right hand on these measures is so counterintuitive?

Shouldn't the fingering be 3,2,3,2,1,2,3,5 3,2,3,2,1,2,3,5 etc.

What fingering do you guys use for this passage?

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#1391138 - 03/08/10 09:50 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: cast12]
Brandon_W_T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1940
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
That is the part that is killing me! My fingers just dont seem to want to move fast enough when they are so close to each other.
_________________________
______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ

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#1391190 - 03/08/10 10:48 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: Brandon_W_T]
Hedgeman26 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 72
Loc: Houston, TX
Yes, the fingering in your score is not optimal imo...the 3,2,3,2,1 fingering is exactly what I used and it makes for very fast and even playing of those few measures. To get extremely even and not smudge/rush notes as you ascend the keyboard will take a little bit of time especially at performance speed, but as you continually practice you will be surprised how quickly the notes fall under your fingers. With proper dynamics, it gradually builds towards such a powerful climax where you can really lash out the descending chromatic scale and nail the descending broken octaves. Probably the most fun part of the piece to play...at least for me, and people really get a kick out of it. And then, you can take a deep breath and glide through teh beautiful middle section. And the best part is...virtually the whole piece then repeats itself up until the last page!! So, once you make it through to the middle section...you have really traversed through most of the tough stuff. With that being said, the 2:1 rhythym in the last page makes for easier progression, BUT it is quite acrobatic and actually did take a bit of time to get real fluid and not sound jumbled. Getting the repeating right hand very quiet and even at the end as your left hand cleanly plays the beuatiful melody takes lots and lots and lots of repetition but, just like everything else...all of a sudden one day you will sit down and it will just fall perfectly in place.
_________________________
Currently learning/playing select pieces from Chopin, Liszt, Beethoven, and Kapustin

What use is knowledge if there is no understanding? (Stobaeus)

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#1391455 - 03/08/10 03:49 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: Hedgeman26]
zxcjason Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 166
Loc: Vancouver, BC
I use 3,2,3,2,1... too, just seems to make sense that way

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#1391480 - 03/08/10 04:10 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: cast12]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6075
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: cast12


Does anyone know why the suggested fingering for the right hand on these measures is so counterintuitive?

Shouldn't the fingering be 3,2,3,2,1,2,3,5 3,2,3,2,1,2,3,5 etc.

What fingering do you guys use for this passage?


That is indeed the suggested fingering in my Dover edition...
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Music is my best friend.


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#1391481 - 03/08/10 04:11 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: ChopinAddict]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6075
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
I mean the fingering YOU suggest...
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Music is my best friend.


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