Hi Linken, I read your post that classical players may not like the CP1 due to the action. Do you think it's easy to adjust to? I'm returning to piano playing and decided to get a digital piano for space concerns. I mainly play classical. I've tried out a Roland V and a Kawai MP8ii so far. I really liked the action of the Kawai better. What do you think the CP1 is closest to? After reading this thread i really want to get the CP1!
Thanks!

Adding a few memory chips is easy enough, but there are probably other obstacles such as maxed out address buses, etc. They're using custom chips, so I'd imagine they'd want to reuse a lot of their internal ASIC design blocks as well. I'm only speculating, but adding even a single address line might require a complete redesign, or migration to a different chip family, which implies hundreds of hours of work.

But yes, I agree, would love to see DP manufacturers catch up with technology. The V-Piano is a step in the right direction.


Good point, will return to the shop one of these days to check the above, as well as a few other things. Having the manual handy will make things easier.


That sounds like a great mix. There seems to be three distinct digital keyboard departments at Yamaha (synth/stage piano, home piano/Clavinova+Modus, hybrid piano/AvantGrand), and I wonder how much collaboration there really is between them, if any. Let's hope they're reading this forum.

-joachim

I can maybe see doing custom stuff in something like a digital camera where miniaturization, power restrictions, specialized processing, and high production volumes might justify it. But a fully custom in-house processor in something like a DP which can be easily implemented in a DSP or general purpose processor, particularly when there would be attendant custom operating system issues, makes no sense.

There may be unmarked or internally marked devices in there, but if they are using custom processors at this point they're crazy - and actually that would go a long way in explaining why they are so far behind the technology curve. Unless you have a very large staff composed entirely of Einsteins, and have a crackerjack competitor like AMD breathing down your neck spurring you on, there's just no way you can keep up with what the chip and processor core vendors are doing.

The explanation is simple and can be described in one word:

Reliability

Honest question: Why are custom made parts assumed to be more reliable than standard parts that proved their reliability? Something that is in use in millions of devices should be more error prone, robust and therefore more reliable. Todays Laptops are very reliable, except for moving parts like harddrive (which is not part of a DP) and they only consist of standard parts...

Most DPs are able to survive 20 years without any problems with memory. Is it the same with our computers?

A laptop has a lifespan of about 2 years in commercial environment, 3 if you’re lucky.

I would say yes (my Atari 600XL back from 1983 still works), but noone would like to fiddle with such an outdated computer. Same applies to DPs which will be completely outdated in 5-10 years at the latest. So why should I even want to play a DP that's 20 years old (let alone to pay for this reliability)?

No, that might be true in an office environment, but not in a lab. We still use ordinary laptops that run with Windows95 and have storage oscilloscope software installed.

These are very reliable, when you dont connect them to the internet ;-)

Peter

The problem is not how long they last. But that few people want a 20 year old digital piano even if it work as if it were new. The new pianos are just so much better.

Even if someone were to give my a free old DP. It would take valueable space in my house that could be put to better use (with a better DP) so they are hard to even give away.


Yes computers can last that long too. I have a collection of classic computers. The old 1980's first Mac and the first IBM PC some old Sun Workstation and at one time I even have a DEC VAX 730. They all work but run software no one needs to run today.

I got a message that a large box has arrived from Yamaha at the studio this morning... it could only be a CP5. We shall see how it goes tomorrow.

I disagree, DPs don't have to be more electrically durable than any other electronic consumer product. If they were they would probably say so in their literature as that can be an expensive proposition.

Companies primarily do custom ICs because they believe they will be selling a ton of whatever contains it. These days ASICs are so expensive compared to the alternatives (FPGAs, OTS components), and electronic products have such a short time on the market before being replaced with the next wave, that few ASICs are done anymore. The NRE is sky high.

Up to building quality and used ICs: here are few pics of my disassembled PX-330. Sorry for low quality but there was not enough light in the bedroom during the evening and with the flash it was even worse.

http://www.mediafire.com/?jnmkittiolf

Now I know why I feel what I feel from the keyboard and that it's impossible to easily reduce side movement of the keys

Maybe it's time to start new thread: Take a screw driver and have a look inside...

pesk: Great pics - thanks. Do you think that two-level grey thing under the centre of the keys is the key position sensor? (or is that just a bump-stop)

Greg.

It should be a sensor - it works like these rubber buttons on some kind of keyboards. And it's mounted on PCB.

It's probably this third sensor which Casio added to new line of Privia.

Thanks.

Just btw, and while I have triple-sensor actions on the brain, does anyone know whether the NW-Stage action is triple-sensor?
To test: play a note, and then see if you can partially release the key, and play a new note, without the original note terminating. Make sure you do the test while the note is still easily loud enough to be heard - when in doubt, just start again.
(if you don't lift off far enough the first time, start again - don't keep trying to find the partial release point without first starting a new note) Probably best to use an acoustic grand preset for the test, in case Yamaha decided that some presets should not have this behaviour.

Thanks,
Greg.
p.s sorry for this side-track from the current discussion about electronics.

In the photo P1010163.JPG, the IC at the lower left is a 512 Mb (64MB) Spansion flash:
http://www.spansion.com/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?ProdID=S29GL512P

The IC at the lower right is a 16 Meg x 16 DRAM:
http://www2.okisemi.com/site/productscatalog/Memory/DRAM/DRAMTables-15.html

The chip in the middle is obviously the brains. Could be custom, could be just internally marked. The number on it doesn't turn anything up in a quick Google search.

Casio is probably large enough, and makes enough of these things, that an ASIC makes sense financially. They likely use processor core and memory interface code developed and maintained by a third party.

If you do the math, there are 250 voices in there. Assuming the operating system doesn't take too much room, that's:

64MB / 250 voices = 0.25 MB per voice on average

I assume the piano actually takes 5-10 MB or so, squeezing the other samples into a somewhat smaller space.

Too bad they don't make a version that just has a high quality 64MB piano and no other voices. If they did, they could have:

64MB / 88 notes = 0.73MB per note
0.73MB / 44100kHz samples / second /2 (stereo) /2 (2 bytes per sample = ~4 seconds per note.

For a 3 layer velocity sample this would give an almost 1.5 second average sample, which could then be biased towards the bass, and if done right it could easily be on par with what the CP1 sounds like, particularly if the bass is stretched a bit (as the CP1 is).

How much does that Flash cost? In +100 quantity from avnet:

http://avnetexpress.avnet.com/store/em/E...;term=S29GL512P

$9.22 USD. Panasonic buys tons of them and has an internal supply chain that can really beat up suppliers - I'd be surprised if they pay more than $2.50 or so. It might even be as low as $1.

Note that the Flash is a commercial part, not industrial, and that the access time is 100ns.

Anyway, doesn't this make people sort of mad? Another $10 or so and this DP could kill anything currently out there.

dewster, I agree with the point that you are making, however I suspect you are over-simplifying things somewhat.

If an additional $10 part could turn the Privia into a world-beating stage piano, don't you think Casio would have taken the plunge by now?

Cheers,
James
x

New Clavia Nord Piano 88 will have 512 MB of flash RAM. All patches will be replaceble from internet library. When I check nordkeyboards.com web their actualy biggest XLR (XL samples + resonance) grand piano patch has 66 MB uncompressed. It looks nice on paper but more interesting will be when somebody with Nord Electro 3 or Stage (EX) run your DP BSD file to see (and hear of course ) how does it sound. I've read some articles about their compression algorithms and recreation of sustain from different small loops etc. but one look on spectral phase view says more than tonnes of marketing talkings...

Well, in the sound department anyway. There are other aspects to a DP obviously. And it would take a bit of R&D as well to get the sound up to snuff.


When I worked around other EEs they would often come to me and ask my advice on what PC they should buy. I would always recommend they build it from commodity parts, pointing out that it costs the same or less for higher quality components, and that they could build it more to suit their needs. Most would decline, saying they just want to buy something pre-assembled from Dell or HP and have it over with. I'd tell them I could give them a ready list of parts to buy, I would assemble the hardware (~1 hour tops these days) and install the OS and any other software they might want (2-3 hours) - all for free as this is one of my hobbies and I like to get others interested in it. They would still decline. And these are EEs!

So one of my coworkers, after consulting me and declining, bought a Dell. A couple of months later he wanted to install a floppy drive. He bought one off of Newegg for ~$7 and then opened the case only to discover that Dell had left out the case hardware for the 2.5" bay. He ended up paying Dell another $25 for the bracket to mount the floppy!

The moral of this long-winded story: Manufacturers can and will cut ANY and ALL corners that don't substantially impact their sales. Casio mass markets these things to consumers, who aren't generally too savvy, and may be OK with the sound of a 5-10MB piano sample for little Johnny to learn on. And it's not like they have much to choose from at this point.

Waiting to hear if the big box was what you thought Doc!?

Steve

The very first sampled piano, the Kurzweil 250, used a couple of MB for the main piano sound I think, which isn't really much less, is it. And it was released some 26 years ago, in 1984.

Greg.

If PCs were like DPs, we'd all be still be sitting in front of a 286.

I used to do the same, then found out what my time is worth, and now I'm happy to buy Apple's expensive computers. Yes Macs cost more then self-built PCs but I make the cost difference before lunch every day. I'm happy to pay Apple to assemble the hardware get all the drivers to work and install loads of software for me and offer tech support and on the spot minor repair at the store. People like to pay for service.

Now when I build stuff for my hobby, that stuff has vacuum tubes inside and is stuff you can't buy pre-made.

I am interested in the CP5, but usually play more from sheet music than from memory. Unless I misunderstand, the CP5 apparently comes without a music desk. I'm sure I need to do more homework, but does anyone know how to provide for a music desk for this stage piano? Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

From the one picture I've seen, it looks like there are two slight protrusions on the back in positions consistent with the sockets on the CP33 and CP300 that accept the CP-REST music stand, an optional extra:

http://www.dv247.com/keyboards-and-midi/yamaha-cp-rest-music-rest--43715

Of course you'd have to check the specifics.

With the greatest respect, I don't believe an anecdote about your colleague purchasing a separate 2.5" floppy drive bracket (3.5" surely?) really answers my question.

Cheers,
James
x

I hope it is a CP-5 and just a suggestion but maybe a new thread about it? This one seems to teeter off track every other post now. Anyway I hope it was the CP-5 and that you are enjoying it.

It wasn't the CP5 in that particular box after all it was a DM2000VCM console that was coming back after having some upgrades installed.

Thanks, RDW. Technologically challenged, I was beginning to wonder if music rests had been replaced by some kind of bluetooth, beaming sheet music directly into the cerebral cortex!

Sorry for the off-thread post, everyone, but thanks for such a helpful discussion.