Hi,

We are in the process of buying a new Piano for the family. I have 3 very talented teenagers that all have potential, but can't agree on which piano. They have left the decission to me, which have have read PB and done some research, but do not play the piano myself. The problem is that each of them prefer a different piano, so it is a little like picking your favorite child. Two are not going to be happy. So any help I can get in the decission is useful (as good arguments will lessen the blow for the two that does not get their way).

The Piano's they like are:
- A completely (and professionally) rebuilt Steinway Model A from 1900.
- The Bosendorfer 185 (6' 1") (New)
- The Bluthner Model 6 (6'3") (New)

The prices are pretty close. My own judgement is that they are all high end Piano's that are well built and regarded. Each dealer talk down the others rather than up their own. The Steinway has a very warm and complex sound, the Bosendorfer clearly differentiates with clarity in complex pieces by Haydn etc, they all feel the Bluthner is very responsive when playing and have a supperior sound in the higher notes.

Thanks,

West Coast

No one can really help you with this. It is all about subjective taste.

Personally I would NOT go with a piano that is 110 years old, however well rebuilt, if it is going to be played hard by three talented and keen teenagers.

IMO, it really depends on the quality and extent of the rebuild. a 110 year old piano should have a total reuild. Pinblock, belly work, refinishing plate, key bed, wippens, strings, hammers (obviously) etc. I have a 1891 Steinway D that was completely rebuilt in 2008. It is the best piano I have ever played and it will last another 100 years. I have seen and played many other rebuilds that were terrible. Have a tech you trust inspect the rebuilt S&S, and if OK, get the piano you like the most. There's no reason a rebuilt piano is inferior to a new one assuming the job was done right.

The S&S may have an excellent tone. Those old S&S are absolutely beautiful to play. But of course, Id try the 3 of the pianos. Personally I would take the steinway, but it -is- old, so it will not be all perfect and 100% as say a new piano would be.

My second choice is the Bösendorfer!

My first choice would be the Bosendorfer, but the Bluthner sounds great too. I would have reservations about the Steinway, just because of its age. You would need to get the quality of the rebuilding professionally evaluated, at a minimum.

Bosendorfers are fabulous, and will never let you down, although I know there are plenty of Bluthner fans out there too.

How wonderful to have such talented children, and it is great that you are getting them a fabulous piano (whichever one you choose).

I love rebuilt Steinway "A"s when done with precision and the best materials avaliable. I have rebuilt many "A"s.

That being said I also love the Bluthner model 6.

The two pianos are very different in tone.

I am surprised they are in the same price range.

My advice? Keep looking until at least two can agree. It sounds like maybe they do with the Bluthner? Responsiveness is a big issue, perhaps the biggest. One or more will be dissatisfied if they can't get in and out of the keys as they'd like.

I can't help but think how lucky these children are to have these choices!

What a dilemma! It will be difficult to please everybody.

All three pianos are high performance instruments, you can’t go wrong. It’s likely that once you bring any of the three pianos home, your children will adjust to the new piano and all pianos played throughout the course of selection will be soon forgotten.

OTH Wouldn’t be a bad idea if you have them play several pianos by the same manufacturer ultimately every single piano has its own character and perhaps the three of them will converge into one piano.

Another suggestion. Take one piano out of the equation and then ask the question of the three. Do this three times removing one of instruments.

Did I forget to tell you how incredibly lucky your teenagers are!?

Thank you for all your great advice. Yes, I very greatful to have such music loving kids.

Expensive piano? Yes. But I would rather do that than trade in my old clunker car. New bike + piano = everyone happy (and healthier).

PS. Any view of how the resale values of the 3 pianos would develop? Does the Bosendorfer hold up better in value than the Bluthner?

The Bosendorfer, considering its new, would probably hold value higher than the other 2. Bluthner is a big strong name, but not as big as Bosendorfer. The S&S is older, so it already has lost a big chunk of its resale value, even though it is rebuilt.

I am not sure that many would agree with that statement.

PianoPanda

Please do yourself and Steingraeber the justice in finding your nearest Steingraeber dealer and visiting them.
The conundrum you face with your 3 children may be significantly reduced (unlikely 100% gone) in letting each of them at a Steingraeber & Sohne.

Mr. Udo Steingraeber just completed a North American tour and his presentation clearly includes the history of Steingraeber producing a piano which can accomodate or transcend various classical genres. After all, this is the key element of musicality - expression.

Yes, I am the Canadian Steingraeber dealer but the proof is in the pudding as they say. Your initial post describes the dilemna you are faced with and this is something to consider which may add to a final solution.

Hope you are able to give one a try.

Pianopanda,

As a dealer for both Bluthner and Bosendorfer, with an inventory that include at all times the Bluthner 6 and Bosie 185 fully prepared and ready to play in our showroom... and since I also have fully rebuilt vintage Steinway pianos on our showroom floor, including virtually at any time the model A, I have seen many times such a side by side comparison made by our customers.
The instruments receive their final preparation by me, and I would like to think it is done to the highest level...so the comparison is interesting.

However, before describing the impressions of customers making this exact side by side comparison virtually hundreds of times, I would like to comment on a couple of previous posts.
One stated that with none of these instruments you can go wrong.
I strongly disagree with this statement, since any rebuilt instrument, regardless of the manufacturer, can potentially be an instrument that you can certainly go wrong with.
The majority of rebuilt pianos that I have seen, and that received this title, were not worthy of it in my opinion.

At times, I have seen legendary price tags attached to such 'restored' pianos, while in reality, they only had a value of a few thousand dollars (if that), and it was clear that they would need considerable work whether the owner/salesperson/potential customer knew it or not, and regardless of what the rebuilder promised any of them.

When considering a rebuilt, one should invest the time in learning to distinguish the various levels of restorations to avoid 'going wrong', and I assume that you have done your research, and decided that this indeed is a rebuild of the highest quality, being a complete work and using the best possible parts, materials and workmanship.

Many dealers also tout their rebuilt pianos as 'the finest available, so probably much like the dealer you're considering the Steinway with, I also believe that the rebuilt instruments on our showroom represent the highest level of possible restoration, with a complete work and the best parts, materials and workmanship available...which should make the comparison more valid.


The other post I wanted to relate to presumed to attribute better ‘resale value’ to one piano over another (I believe it was the Bosendorfer with the better value).
I believe that if the margin you will buy the new instruments for is equal, there will be little difference, if any, regarding their resale value. The piano market has changed considerably over the past decade, and nowadays, with the advent of the Internet, there are relatively a lot of buyers who are looking for used high level European instruments with very few of them to go around.

I think this trend is likely to continue, and although the numbers of such instruments sold in the states is likely to increase overtime, the demand for used such instruments is probably going to increase at a faster pace.


In any case, both the Bluthner and the Bosendorfer have more intimate qualities to them.
The Bluthner is indeed extremely responsive.
It is easy to climb up the dynamic range ladder like a two seat sports car with exhilarating acceleration and impressive breaking power. The transition between ppp and FFF is effortless and can be done with the fingers rather than necessitating the force of e sledge hammer.

The tonal qualities are pure, focused, and extremely defined.
I think that the term ‘bell like tone’ was invented to describe the Bluthner with its blooming, developing sound.
It is an instrument that demand accuracy and control in playing, forcing a student to be a better player, but punishing the sloppy handed.

The treble sings like no other, and the fourth, elevated aliquot string, allows the tech to introduce a vibrato without sounding out of tune as it resonating sympathetically to the other three strings.
Throughout the scale, the purity and definition of the tone, allows the interaction between notes...each exciting another with an harmonic cycle that keeps on lingering, leaving an after taste not dissimilar to what can be experienced with a rich merlot.

Bluthner has an intimate tonal quality, and although have more than sufficient power when pressed, it has the ability to sound fantastic in even very small rooms...and mind you, a home environment with a space of 25’ x 30’ and a 10’ ceiling is a relatively 'small space' which is not designed for attendance by 400 people or more and large performances...

Bluthner pianos record magnificently and accompany voice and other instruments extremely well, as the focused and unobtrusive tone allows both the piano and other instruments to shine.


Bosendorfer also has na intimate tonal quality...yet it is so different from the Bluthner.
The Bosendorfer has an 'airy’ quality, meaning, if the Bluthner is a rich Merlo, the Bosendorfer is Champagne.
It is an amazingly clear and transparent tonal quality, allowing individual notes to be heard, yet doing so with amazing richness, color and sustain.
The Bosendorfer is the most sustaining instrument of the three, with a mid range that keeps on singing, and a softer, delicate tone.
Simply put, the tone perfected, and one is hard pressed to find any rings, zings or in-harmonic dirt within.
When pressed, it does not become 'raspy' like that of most pianos (or a rock singer), but rather continues to be clear like the tone of an opera singer at higher volumes.

Some feel that they cannot 'bottom out' the piano, and particularly the bass, and may refer to this tonal quality as 'lack of power', but this stems from misunderstanding the instrument and the intention of its designers.
Bosendorfer aims to capture both color and clarity at the same time, an often touted but usually misrepresented quality.
It aims to be refined at all volume levels.

Bosendorfers are also great chamber music pianos, as they can be heard clearly side by side with other instruments without 'drowning' their tone.




The Steinway, if rebuilt properly, should be the most powerful even if not as refined.
It is an instrument that values the ability to fill large halls and to compete with other instruments.

It is also more forgiving than the other two pianos, and especially the Bluthner, as the considerably less focused and/or clear tone will not highlight the player’s mistakes.

The sound is more aggressive, and calls for a heavier hammer than the other two,…and so the action, even if rebuilt to the highest levels and extremely satisfying, will not be as responsive as that of the Bluthner or Bosendorfer.
It may be easy to control though, yet the piano will require a considerably more aggressive style of playing than the other two in order to change its tonal characteristics and demonstrate its capabilities in terms of the upper dynamic range.
Did I already mention that the Steinway can be a real power machine?

In many cases with rebuild pianos, the tonal quality of the finished instrument reflect the aim of the rebuilder, or his interpretation of what the people who designed this piano more than 100 years ago really had in mind...rather than necessarily what the manufacturer originally intended it to sound like.


The choice of what needs to be done (or the decision of what not to do), as well as the selection of the action parts, hammers, bass strings, soundboard material and design can all affect the final result considerably.

But it is rather clear that almost always, power and 'bigness' are considered to be favorable qualities with such pianos, while evenness, refinement and clarity takes a second seat.



One other thing to consider is the advancements that took place in piano design and technology over the past 100 years.
Both the Bluthner and Bosendorfer are more modern designs, taking to consideration the knowledge that was gained over the past century in order to produce the tonal qualities that they consider desirable.


Personally, I find it interesting that people seem to be willing to accept the (false) notion that we in the piano industry have learned little over the past 100 years about our instruments, and how to make them better.

While most can accept that even the best cars of the 1920's don't drive as well as today's cars, the romantic notion that pianos cannot be improved upon over the past century seems to be pushed by guilty dealers, me included, who see relatively easy money in selling restored Steinway pianos to people who have been programmed during the past 60 years to see them almost exclusively on concert stages, TV studios, festivals, etc…and thus automatically assume they are ‘the best’.

Even a machine as simple as the bicycle have seen tremendous advances since the 19th century (does anyone here rides a 19th century bike?), but when we talk about pianos, many of the experts have grown to depend on perpetuating the notion that unlike any other industry, we found no way to improve our instruments...

The fact is that we learned quite a lot over the past 100 years, and while some manufacturers stayed behind, others continued implementing the knowledge they gained into their pianos and building process, resulting in a more refined musical instrument.

Overall, Pianopanda, I do not know what tonal qualities you and your family value.
For one person, a piano who forces the player to develop control and rewards accurate playing is a plus,…while another may prefer a forgiving instrument, even if less clear, which hides mistakes.

A person who lives alone, may view a loud, powerful piano as an advantage…yet for another, who may have family or neighbors around, it may be a detriment.

One person’s style of playing calls for aggressive use of power, and favors a piano that lends itself into ‘digging’… while another is never likely to inflict nearly as great a force on the piano, and would much prefer an instrument that allows for good dynamic range with the use of only moderate force.


Overall, I would not consider recommending which is the instrument that is right for you based on the limited amount of information you provided.
However, I hope that you find the descriptions above useful.

My goodness Ori....
Did my short and sweet post of Steingraeber & Sohne get you concerned?
I see you represent Steingraeber by your signature (authorized I trust?).
Do you not feel Steingraeber would be a worthy contender for PianoPanda? As a Steingraeber dealer you must be aware of the 'expressive buffet' that Steingraebers bring to 'the table'.

BTW, where do you get those bass strings for all your Steinway rebuilds?

I sure did, great post.
Thanks for taking your time to reply with helpful comments and descriptions of the three.

Newgeneration,

I will answer your relevant questions, but not necessarily in the order you asked them, so please read carefully.

You commented/asked:

I see you represent Steingraeber by your signature (authorized I trust?).

Indeed, I am a Steingraeber authorized dealer, and represent Steingraeber pianos in NY, New England, and much of the North Eastern US. I have been the largest Steingraber dealer in North America since I have taken the line in 2007.
We do very well with these pianos.

You wrote:

As a Steingraeber dealer you must be aware of the 'expressive buffet' that Steingraebers bring to 'the table'.

As a Steingraeber dealer, as a technician, and as a pianist, I'm well aware of the instrument's qualities.

I visited the factory and worked side by side with Steingraeber's head technician on preparing Steingraeber pianos at our showroom.

I have had many discussions with Udo Steingaeber, whether in Germany or during one of his visits here, about his pianos and Steingraber's philosophy of tone, touch and manufacturing.

I have personally prepared more than 20 of these new pianos (mind you that they make less than 100 grand pianos per year), a statement that very few in North America can make (if any), and I have played on many more...
So I strongly feel that I'm familiar with these pianos in an out, and that I'm aware of what Steingraeber can bring 'to the table'.


You asked:

Do you not feel Steingraeber would be a worthy contender for PianoPanda?

I feel that that there are many worthy contenders for Pianopanda, Steingraeber included.
However, Pianopanda did not ask about any other brands nor solicited suggestions and recommendations about other pianos.
He was rather specific about the instruments he asked about, and so I do not think it is my place to opine about another make even if i represent it.


You asked:

Did my short and sweet post of Steingraeber & Sohne get you concerned?

While my response to Pianopanda's questions had nothing to do with your comments, your post did get me concerned.
The reason is that if the original poster is asking about something rather specific, and one dealer chimes in offering a brand that he carries, the likelihood is that other dealers would also chime in.
they would offer the brands they carry, and that the OP never asked about, and more names would be thrown around until we somehow end up, once again, with a discussion about Chinese pianos the merits of Hailun versus Brodmann, which have nothing to do with the subject of the topic.

So yes, I did find your post concerning, and no, I did not find it to be sweet.


...and so I would like to make a short comment to you.

As I understand, your business recently became a representative for Steingraber pianos, which I consider to be amazing instruments.
I would like to congratulate you on getting the representation of the line, and as a fellow Steingraeber dealer I wish you a lot of successes with it.


The only other new piano brand you seem to represent is Hailun, which I doubt that you have been carrying for a long time as well (being a relatively new piano which extended its distribution network over the past couple of years)and I have no idea if you represented any other new piano brands.

As I believe you will agree, there is quite a spread between the two lines, and so if the time comes when you'll be looking for representation of another new instrument to somewhat close the gap between the two, you should consider the following.

Your comments and style of posting will not only from consumers opinions about you, but also industry people.

Some manufacturers may see it as an advantage to be touted and inserted by their dealers at almost any opportunity, and do not seem to mind if the comments made are of real value or amount to a superficial 'the piano I sell is the best!'.

Other makers, and especially when these are smaller production high level manufacturers, do not necessarily welcome such an approach.


I can assure you that many posters will ask in the future about Steingraeber pianos, and this will provide you with the opportunity to opine about their tone, quality and the reasons you chose to invest in that particular brand.

Other times, posters may ask an open question and solicit opinions about brands to try, and while I usually do not take this approach, it may not be too out of place, even for a dealer, to suggest such a brand if the parameters that the poster is asking about seem to fit the shoe (e.g, if the poster is considering high level pianos to suggest Steingraeber as an option).

As long as it is done judicially and in relation to the OP questions, it may be acceptable.

I hope you accept my perspective and comments in the friendly manner in which they were given, from one dealer to another, and that you'll represent Steingraeber in a way that befits a rich in history, 158 year old family owned company which is specializing in making instruments of the highest level.

Hi Ori
Thanks for the post.
Your reply mentions that the original post by PianoPanda did not include Steingraeber.
I took a look at this thread initially and what I considered was quite specific was the fact that PianoPanda has three conflicting opinions from which a decision needs to be made.



When you provided your first post, I simply thought it was strange that you would not bring up Steingraeber as something that PianoPanda's family may ALL fall in love with, independently of one another.
For you to make mention of Steingraeber would not alter the fact that your post was excellent for its content, but, coincidentally you would be able to offer any of the three pianos PianoPanda inquired of anyways. Adding Steingraeber in your post as a genuine alternative PianoPanda may be interested in looking at, would be nothing but considerate of you IMO.

And now regarding your comments directed towards me which I received in a somewhat condescending manner:

I am 34 years old. I too prep my pianos, and am a piano technician. Pianist, however no. I learned the piano trade from my father who learned the trade at the Heintzman factory after coming emigrating from Germany. As soon as I was able to work with a piece of steel wool, I was cleaning action parts, later regulating, then eventually tuning at a relatively young age.
I continue to build our North American bass string business which supplies a good number of the most respected technicians in the United States and Canada. I usually attend at least 3 PTG conventions per year as an exhibitor and have recently began as an instructor at a number of these conventions.
For the first 18 years of my life I grew up inside our family business - an authorized Yamaha dealership (almost literally as we lived immediately behind our storefront).

What bothers me within the North American piano world is the flavour of the latter portion of your post:



Due to age, my father resigned from being a Yamaha dealer in 2000. From 2003 to 2008 I patiently waited to get back into the retail. I was waiting for a line of pianos I could whole-heartedly stand behind - not because of a well marketed reputation or history alone, but because I truly felt, inits respective market, it would offer the most to the consumer.

So yes, the two piano lines are new to our 28 year old company, but a rookie I am not. Refreshing to the piano consumer world I hope, but not a rookie.


And so....
I wish nothing more for PianoPanda to be able to show impartial love toward all children:)

Thank you.

Newgeneration,

I think you missed the point of my comments, twice.

First, whether Pianopanda's family can ALL fall in love with a Steingraeber or not is not the issue.

Perhaps they will and perhaps they will not.

Perhaps they will ALL fall in love with a Fazioli, or ALL fall in love with a C. Bechstein...or perhaps they could ALL fall in love with an August Forster, a Grotrian, an Estonia, a Sauter....etc.

The OP asked for rather specific pianos and sizes.
He did not ask for suggestions of other brands.
So in my opinion, a dealer, no matter how passionate and sincere about the brands he carries, should not suggest the instruments he is selling just because...

While you are free to disagree, please let me remind you that I did not refer to your comments in my original post, but rather to the OP.
You presented me with questions and I decided to answer.
I apologize if you do not like the answers.


Second, I tried to be somewhat diplomatic yet still send a message.
Unfortunately, it was interpreted as an invitation to read your biography and/or accuse you of being a rookie.

It was not my intention.

The message I was trying to send was the following:

Please consider revising your style of posting.
Continuing the way you have been posting over the past few days may hurt the very brands you wish to promote.


There is no need for you to agree or disagree with me.
You solicited my opinion and now received it.

Now, I have made a first long post towards the OP, which you have buried in your questions.
Hopefully without your objection, I will copy and post it again so that we can move on.

Once again...

Pianopanda,

As a dealer for both Bluthner and Bosendorfer, with an inventory that include at all times the Bluthner 6 and Bosie 185 fully prepared and ready to play in our showroom... and since I also have fully rebuilt vintage Steinway pianos on our showroom floor, including virtually at any time the model A, I have seen many times such a side by side comparison made by our customers.
The instruments receive their final preparation by me, and I would like to think it is done to the highest level...so the comparison is interesting.

However, before describing the impressions of customers making this exact side by side comparison virtually hundreds of times, I would like to comment on a couple of previous posts.
One stated that with none of these instruments you can go wrong.
I strongly disagree with this statement, since any rebuilt instrument, regardless of the manufacturer, can potentially be an instrument that you can certainly go wrong with.
The majority of rebuilt pianos that I have seen, and that received this title, were not worthy of it in my opinion.

At times, I have seen legendary price tags attached to such 'restored' pianos, while in reality, they only had a value of a few thousand dollars (if that), and it was clear that they would need considerable work whether the owner/salesperson/potential customer knew it or not, and regardless of what the rebuilder promised any of them.

When considering a rebuilt, one should invest the time in learning to distinguish the various levels of restorations to avoid 'going wrong', and I assume that you have done your research, and decided that this indeed is a rebuild of the highest quality, being a complete work and using the best possible parts, materials and workmanship.

Many dealers also tout their rebuilt pianos as 'the finest available, so probably much like the dealer you're considering the Steinway with, I also believe that the rebuilt instruments on our showroom represent the highest level of possible restoration, with a complete work and the best parts, materials and workmanship available...which should make the comparison more valid.


The other post I wanted to relate to presumed to attribute better ‘resale value’ to one piano over another (I believe it was the Bosendorfer with the better value).
I believe that if the margin you will buy the new instruments for is equal, there will be little difference, if any, regarding their resale value. The piano market has changed considerably over the past decade, and nowadays, with the advent of the Internet, there are relatively a lot of buyers who are looking for used high level European instruments with very few of them to go around.

I think this trend is likely to continue, and although the numbers of such instruments sold in the states is likely to increase overtime, the demand for used such instruments is probably going to increase at a faster pace.


In any case, both the Bluthner and the Bosendorfer have more intimate qualities to them.
The Bluthner is indeed extremely responsive.
It is easy to climb up the dynamic range ladder like a two seat sports car with exhilarating acceleration and impressive breaking power. The transition between ppp and FFF is effortless and can be done with the fingers rather than necessitating the force of e sledge hammer.

The tonal qualities are pure, focused, and extremely defined.
I think that the term ‘bell like tone’ was invented to describe the Bluthner with its blooming, developing sound.
It is an instrument that demand accuracy and control in playing, forcing a student to be a better player, but punishing the sloppy handed.

The treble sings like no other, and the fourth, elevated aliquot string, allows the tech to introduce a vibrato without sounding out of tune as it resonating sympathetically to the other three strings.
Throughout the scale, the purity and definition of the tone, allows the interaction between notes...each exciting another with an harmonic cycle that keeps on lingering, leaving an after taste not dissimilar to what can be experienced with a rich merlot.

Bluthner has an intimate tonal quality, and although have more than sufficient power when pressed, it has the ability to sound fantastic in even very small rooms...and mind you, a home environment with a space of 25’ x 30’ and a 10’ ceiling is a relatively 'small space' which is not designed for attendance by 400 people or more and large performances...

Bluthner pianos record magnificently and accompany voice and other instruments extremely well, as the focused and unobtrusive tone allows both the piano and other instruments to shine.


Bosendorfer also has na intimate tonal quality...yet it is so different from the Bluthner.
The Bosendorfer has an 'airy’ quality, meaning, if the Bluthner is a rich Merlo, the Bosendorfer is Champagne.
It is an amazingly clear and transparent tonal quality, allowing individual notes to be heard, yet doing so with amazing richness, color and sustain.
The Bosendorfer is the most sustaining instrument of the three, with a mid range that keeps on singing, and a softer, delicate tone.
Simply put, the tone perfected, and one is hard pressed to find any rings, zings or in-harmonic dirt within.
When pressed, it does not become 'raspy' like that of most pianos (or a rock singer), but rather continues to be clear like the tone of an opera singer at higher volumes.

Some feel that they cannot 'bottom out' the piano, and particularly the bass, and may refer to this tonal quality as 'lack of power', but this stems from misunderstanding the instrument and the intention of its designers.
Bosendorfer aims to capture both color and clarity at the same time, an often touted but usually misrepresented quality.
It aims to be refined at all volume levels.

Bosendorfers are also great chamber music pianos, as they can be heard clearly side by side with other instruments without 'drowning' their tone.




The Steinway, if rebuilt properly, should be the most powerful even if not as refined.
It is an instrument that values the ability to fill large halls and to compete with other instruments.

It is also more forgiving than the other two pianos, and especially the Bluthner, as the considerably less focused and/or clear tone will not highlight the player’s mistakes.

The sound is more aggressive, and calls for a heavier hammer than the other two,…and so the action, even if rebuilt to the highest levels and extremely satisfying, will not be as responsive as that of the Bluthner or Bosendorfer.
It may be easy to control though, yet the piano will require a considerably more aggressive style of playing than the other two in order to change its tonal characteristics and demonstrate its capabilities in terms of the upper dynamic range.
Did I already mention that the Steinway can be a real power machine?

In many cases with rebuild pianos, the tonal quality of the finished instrument reflect the aim of the rebuilder, or his interpretation of what the people who designed this piano more than 100 years ago really had in mind...rather than necessarily what the manufacturer originally intended it to sound like.


The choice of what needs to be done (or the decision of what not to do), as well as the selection of the action parts, hammers, bass strings, soundboard material and design can all affect the final result considerably.

But it is rather clear that almost always, power and 'bigness' are considered to be favorable qualities with such pianos, while evenness, refinement and clarity takes a second seat.



One other thing to consider is the advancements that took place in piano design and technology over the past 100 years.
Both the Bluthner and Bosendorfer are more modern designs, taking to consideration the knowledge that was gained over the past century in order to produce the tonal qualities that they consider desirable.


Personally, I find it interesting that people seem to be willing to accept the (false) notion that we in the piano industry have learned little over the past 100 years about our instruments, and how to make them better.

While most can accept that even the best cars of the 1920's don't drive as well as today's cars, the romantic notion that pianos cannot be improved upon over the past century seems to be pushed by guilty dealers, me included, who see relatively easy money in selling restored Steinway pianos to people who have been programmed during the past 60 years to see them almost exclusively on concert stages, TV studios, festivals, etc…and thus automatically assume they are ‘the best’.

Even a machine as simple as the bicycle have seen tremendous advances since the 19th century (does anyone here rides a 19th century bike?), but when we talk about pianos, many of the experts have grown to depend on perpetuating the notion that unlike any other industry, we found no way to improve our instruments...

The fact is that we learned quite a lot over the past 100 years, and while some manufacturers stayed behind, others continued implementing the knowledge they gained into their pianos and building process, resulting in a more refined musical instrument.

Overall, Pianopanda, I do not know what tonal qualities you and your family value.
For one person, a piano who forces the player to develop control and rewards accurate playing is a plus,…while another may prefer a forgiving instrument, even if less clear, which hides mistakes.

A person who lives alone, may view a loud, powerful piano as an advantage…yet for another, who may have family or neighbors around, it may be a detriment.

One person’s style of playing calls for aggressive use of power, and favors a piano that lends itself into ‘digging’… while another is never likely to inflict nearly as great a force on the piano, and would much prefer an instrument that allows for good dynamic range with the use of only moderate force.


Overall, I would not consider recommending which is the instrument that is right for you based on the limited amount of information you provided.
However, I hope that you find the descriptions above useful.

PianoPanda:

My answer would be very briefly same as others:



Now one can certainly write another three pages about it if you like. But I doubt it would be very helpful.

Better: try the pianos out yourself on several more occasions, ideally under slightly 'different moods'...

Amazing how we sometimes judge things differently in life when doing so...

HAPPY CHOOSING!!

Norbert

Ori
You are really missing the point here...and what you are doing is a disservice.

Indulge this metaphor in the interest of truly helping PianoPanda:

You are a baker. PianoPanda enters your bakery and expresses he/she would like a very special cake in honour of his/her children. PianoPanda's problem is that one child prefers a cake made primarily with cream, one with almonds and one with strawberries. You proceed to show your 3, very different, individual cakes (cream, almond and strawberry) and you provided lengthy design features and histories of each one. Obviously, as already revealed, two out of three children will be unhappy with the eventually choice.
Why on earth would you not introduce PianoPanda to the Strawberry Shortcake. It is the perfect marriage of all three cakes. Each child will be able to draw from the shortcake the flavours they prefer. Sure, she did not enter your bakery looking for a strawberry shortcake, but IF that does the trick - you'd be a hero. No harm in making the introduction.

I am afraid by this point we have lost PianoPanda to some other forum and for that I apologize.

It seems to me that some bakers around here may be a few cookies short of a pound.

fingers

I have a feeling that PianoPanda went to get something to eat.

After reading that posting I sure did.

I like strawberry shortcake....mmmmmmm

There is something here that has not been addressed and it goes to John’s suggestion.

There are 3 teens in the same family. For the most part teenager’s emotions are somewhat unsophisticated, and they are keen on searching for, and discovering their own “individuality.”

So when you give them choices such as this, one would expect in order for them to have their own “individual choice” it would have to differ from the other two.

So the result then becomes a loyalty issue for yourself, because whatever choice you make on these 3 instruments you will be seen to favour one child over another.

Your best and wisest move is to make a choice on your own, ignoring these 3 instruments. If you continue to cater to this nonsense, with a significant purchase such as this, then it becomes a case of the tail wagging the dog.

I am sure you would like to make your teenagers happy. Do they not share the same reciprocal value for you?

What will they learn from this? They will learn very quickly that if they cannot come to a consensus regarding the decision making process, then the responsibility for that will be removed from them.

I doubt if Ori is missing anything. You need to go on a diet.

Of all the posts in this thread this one makes the most sense. I hope PianoPanda is still around. I'm sure if Dad threatens to buy a Pearl River (no disrespect meant to this bargain brand) that his children may suddenly realize that the rare opportunity they share may be lost if they don't come to a consensus. If not, then he gets to save a few dollars. No children would be harmed by having to practice on a new entry level grand piano. Of course the kids may feel a need to revisit the pianos in question in order to plead their cases to the others and reassess their preferences. A deadline may inject some urgency into their deliberations. Great idea!

Good luck.

Posted by Ori


Posted by Ori in regard to Newgeneration's suggestion about considering Steingraber.

Ori aren't you doing about the same thing?
The original poster had already considered a particular Steinway rebuilt; I don't see the need of mentioning your own rebuilt pianos.

I don’t blame you for beating your own drum.
But feel free to tell the OP.
I have all the brands you are looking for (I’m a pianist, technician and I know better than anybody else in this forum) I also have the best rebuilt instruments. Why don’t you visit my store?

Kurtman,

When you cut another poster's phrases in the middle of the sentence, and quote only a part thereof, the result may be out of context.

I would like to think that you took this route simply since you don't know any better rather than intentionally, but for your convenience and comparison, here is the full sentence as I wrote it.


Many dealers also tout their rebuilt pianos as 'the finest available, so probably much like the dealer you're considering the Steinway with, I also believe that the rebuilt instruments on our showroom represent the highest level of possible restoration, with a complete work and the best parts, materials and workmanship available...which should make the comparison more valid.