NEVER in my wildest dreams would I think the PERFECT piano would be a Steinway. Until I get my money, I cannot afford this $86,000 piano, but I would buy it in a heartbeat! I always thought the sounds I had in my heart and mind were non-existent, until today....I played a Steinway B and it was perfect. Nothing more to say except, I'll let the universe take care of how I'll be able to get this piano, but I know I want it! PERFECT!

uh oh - bitten by the bug. Welcome to the club, my friend. Hopefully, the next one that is available when you are ready to purchase will be as sweet. Once you find a piano that speaks to you - you are toast!

Regardless of brand, I have yet to hear any two pianos that sound and feel alike. Prep is key, Jordy.

Glen

You're rigth Inlanding, cause I've played other Steinways and never have I heard what I heard today. I have been bitten by a huge bug, but I did go and buy $20 worth of lottery tickets today...lol

Hope your dreams are realized - sooner with the lottery winnings - or later through universal fate!

Some of those Killers Bs are hard to beat, especially when it is prepped nicely...
I hope you will have your dream piano sooner than later.

Why not me??? Someone's gotta win?

so where is it ???
(probably better not to tell the rest of us!)

Do tell, where is this beast?

C

I'll tell after the next few lottery drawings...gotta give the mojo a chance to work...

Good luck!

Welcome to the club! I was fortunate to be able to realize my dream...may yours come true sooner than you think!! There really isn't much better than a really good B. Even most D's.

Horowitzian, you are very, very fortunate.

Thanks for all the good wishes!!! I believe in miracles, so let's give this a whirl.!

Well, didn't happen on last night's drawing...we'll play again Saturday...lol! Common ship...prepare to dock!!!

You know, there is probobly a lot in that. But I think that you should think about it as a goal, rather than a dream... that way it is not outside your thinking of what is possible, so to say

Good luck!

I think that's great advice Wellspear and even though it might sound a little humorous, I do think of it as a reality and not a dream. I've had so many things in my life develop for me financially and otherwise, that the only thing I kept in my heart and mind was that "goal" of knowing I deserve this. I also, at the same time, kept goodness, integrity, sprituality, etc., in the forefront only to watch my "dreams/goals" manifest into form right before my eyes...

Thanks for the wise words.

J

Glad to hear that

P.S. There is a documentary movie that was released not so long ago, called "The secret", have you seen it? It deals with the mind - matter subject very interestingly! Recommended...

Been living it for 25 years! Thanks...

It's only money - they print it every day. My Hamburg Steinway B was worth the wait.

I just posted my experiences with a Bosendorfer 225 -- you should check out that brand (or Bluthner or Steingraber) -- unless your getting a concert Steinway grand, I don't think they can compete on sound or build quality -- not to mention value retention. Make sure you understand what a new Steinway will be worth in 5 years compared to one of the brands I mentioned -- you pay a huge premium for the Steinway which you will loose in trade-in.

There's so much wrong with this post..........personal preferences aside.

Although I own an "A" (and love it), I had never played a "B" until last Sunday. Then I had the good fortune to play 3 of them. All sounded very different, partly due to locations. One was in a smallish living room, carpeted, heavy drapes, other window coverings. The other two were in a warehouse - concrete floors, etc. But those two were just a few feet apart yet had very different sounds and feel (to no one's amazement).

But I saw and heard enough that I am anxiously waiting for the completion of a rebuild by one of the frequent posters here - another week or so. I doubt that I will be able to afford the difference, but if it sounds as good as the others promised, I will have to do some serious soul-searching.

Haleydog, please elaborate!

If I ever spend a ton of money on a piano, I DO CARE about the investment part. I thought Steinways ALWAYS appreciate??/

Meh. The thing reads like a dealer plug. I wouldn't give it much weight. Besides, the investment angle is IMHO the least important consideration when you are buying a fine piano. Get the one you like and that makes you happy.

In terms of the actual dollars you spend on the piano today, say 80K, you may be able to get the same or better (90K) in 50 years, but there is no adjustment for inflation considered in the equation. I highly doubt that buying a new piano today and 'flipping it' two years later will yield in anything but a finacial loss. Steinway is no exception to this rule despite what dealers would want you to believe.

A Steinway B is a fine artist instrument. There are not many pianos that would have more expressive potential. The Boesendorfer 225 is somewhat of an unfair comparison as it is a bit longer and extends towards the concert-size pianos. It would be fairer to compare the Hamburg Steinway C with the Boesendorfer but that's difficult as the C is not often seen in the U.S.

+1

Jordy,
Since you've found a piano that spoke to you and you enjoyed it immensely, none of the others will really stack up.

Everyone has their personal preference and prep is key anyway. There is no way a Bosie can sound like a Steinway, nor can a Steinway sound like a Bosie. No two Steinways sound or feel the same, just like no two Bosies sound or feel the same - there are too many variables in terms of components and prep.

I do hope you are continuing to play the lotto - I am...;)

Get that B!!!

Glen

Well said.

I am still waiting for the day when I can afford a B. I shall travel to Hamburg to select it. (Dream on)

I am still playing the lotto!!!! Yes that B is in my heart forever!!!! If I had the money today, I wouldn't sample anything else...that's how sure I am, but today is not the day.

If I had cash today...what do you think the dealer will take (out the door price)?

Just curious.

Latest list I saw was around 82k...I guess it would depend upon the dealer. At a Steinway Gallery, you may not get much dealing at all.

And I'm still waiting for the day when I can afford to travel to Hamburg to select a B....

Seriously though, at the Steinway store where I have my lessons we alternate between a D and a B. It may just be room acoustics but I actually think the B sounds better. I forget what the size on a B is ? 6'7" maybe ? Can someone confirm this ?

last I looked, a "B" was 6' 11".

Jordy - When I was considering trading in my Bos 200 for a 225 I was amazed to find that I got about 78% of what I paid after 5 years, which, by the way, was the only reason I could afford to by the 225. As you know the actual selling price for many brands is much less than the "list price (in the range of 30% less), I believe -- EXCEPT for Steinway, which I don't believe discounts off of their list price. (I think scepticalforumguy explains it very well in his post -- the dealers want you to believe it appreciates, but you need to wait 50 years and include inflation.)

Seilerfan pointed out that it might be unfair to compare a Steinway B to a Bos 25, which "extends toward the concert-size". Then why not spend just a little more money (actual Bos price vs Steinway list) to get the Bos 225?

Unless, of course the Steinway B speaks to you which is what really matters. As Inlanding posted, Steinways don't sound like Bosendorfers.

Since being knowledgeable usually helps, I would make sure you spend time playing both brands (and others) in the same store so you can feel, hear and see the differences. Then pick which sound and feel you love, because they are quite different. If you end up with Steinway, I wouldn't worry about the fact that you paid a premium for the name, which does impact its value retention -- because you love the instrument. (You could find out what you would get on trading in a 5 year old B)

Sorry for so many words. Hope this helps!

You don't think you pay a premium for the Bosendorfer name?

Acording to Fine, the dealer's % profit on a Steinway is much more than on any make including Bosendorfer.

I know someone who bought a Bosie 225 (3 years ago) for $90k. I get tired of hearing how Steinway is the only piano where you pay a significant premium.

Let's do some math:
Bosie - assuming $90k, $/cm = $90k/225 = $400/cm
Steinway - assuming $76k (3 years ago), $/cm = $76k/211 = $360/cm

hmmmmm

Lets say 2 pianos of different manufacturers are comparable in size and performance. One retails for 80K and is sold at retail. The other retails for 120K but is discounted by 33.333% which is.... hey! 80K.

wg73,

Taking the price paid and dividing it by the size of the piano does not equal better value (neither musical nor monetary).
It only indicates price per foo but doesn't say anything about paying a 'premium' for the name.

According to such logic one may deduct that the least expensive piano in the industry is the only one which is not paying a premium for the name while all other instruments are more expensive only due to the premium they receive on the name rather than how costly it is to execute their intended design, the level of parts materials that go into building these pianos, or the quality of workmanship...along with many other variables.


To me, the only meaningful data that you provided indicates that if the average selling price of a Steinway model B 3 years ago was around 65K (assuming a 5%
-10% discount which is rather modest with industry average discounts, and taking as a basis for the calculation the retail price as found in the 2007/2008 Larry fine price supplement of $70,700)...then your friend paid for his Bosie 225 about 38% higher than he would have paid for a Steinway model B.

nm

Only if you make the mistake of buying from a Steinway Gallery. Independent dealers have no reason to do so...in fact I've seen it myself, and it leads one to the conclusion that there is a significant profit "built in" to the S&S MSRP. Again, I know no specific figures. Just some basic logic.



Maybe I don't care for the Bösendorfer sound? If I was going to spend a "little more money", I'd rather find a nicely cared for used D. If I was going to really break the bank, maybe even a Hamburg D!



I've said this above, but investment considerations should be the least of your worries. I am happy for you in that you were able to upgrade considerably trading the old piano in, but do you think you could have gotten 78% of what you paid selling it on your own?

The question was about premium "for the name" which IMO doesn't mean just the price. It means how much of the price paid is for the name which IMO translates into dealer markup from wholesale. This is where Steinway has the biggest markup of all makers as far as I know.

So you're saying Steinway's wholesale prices are lower than Bosendorfer's wholesale prices? I'd like to see the numbers.

I think people just get angry that Steinway doesn't discount 20-30% like most other manufacturers. People want to get "a deal" when buying something this significant.

So my friend got "a deal" because his Bosie 225 was originally listed for $119,000 (!), but they came down to $90,000, a discount of 25%! yea!

But, hey, he still paid $90,000 for a piano of similar quality and size (although slightly longer) to a Steinway B.

But the perception of the Steinway B is that Steinway demands some sort of premium because they don't discount much from MSRP.

I have no numbers, but I have it on good authority that quite the opposite is true.

I must be misunderstanding this statement, so if I am attribute it to a looong day.

To be clear and simple though, a Bosendorfer 225 costs a dealer significantly more than a new Steinway B costs a dealer - significantly more.

I hope that helps,

Rich, that's exactly what I was trying to say.

Because they don't discount much from SMP. Thus the dealer percent markup from wholesale is greater than other pianos.

but isn't that also highly influenced by the exchange rate ? (euros to dollars)

Dealer % markup =(price paid by customer-price paid by dealer)/price paid by dealer

I would assume if the exchange rate affects the price the dealer pays in some consistent and significant way this is passed along to the customer. Fine's SMP is based on dealer wholesale prices at a given point in time, so I don't see where exchange rate comes in.

from Rich:"To be clear and simple though, a Bosendorfer 225 costs a dealer significantly more than a new Steinway B costs a dealer - significantly more."


This is what I was referring to. Isn't that cost to the dealer in part a function of the exchange rate ?

Yes, exchange rate DOES factor into the cost to the dealer. So, when the dollar is weak, that translates into lower margins for German piano dealers (unless they can up the purchase price by the customer).

Both Steinway and Bosie have positioned their products in the low volume, high margin category. How MUCH margin depends on the wholesale cost to the dealers. So, this discussion is meaningless unless some dealers can provide hard numbers for their wholesale cost (which will never happen).

Until then, nobody in this discussion can definitively say Steinway produces higher margins for their dealers.

Exchange rates will always have an effect on prices, particularly on Euro pianos sold over on this side of the pond. I agree that the customer will ultimately end up paying for it. I believe Hamburg S&S B's retail over here for better than 100k, and have for some time. That could be a fairer comparison pricewise with the Bosie 225.

BTW, you have to multiply the result of your formula by 100 to get a percent.

Ori,
the only data we have to go on is the actual price paid since we do not know the dealer's wholesale cost. So you must normalize the price in order to compare apples with apples. This is similar to comparing $/square foot to live in San Francisco versus $/square foot in Dallas. Obviously, the price per square foot to live in SF is higher than Dallas, so in effect you are paying a "premium" to live in SF.

As far as I am concerned your references to "how costly it is to execute their intended design" can be completely negated due to exchange rates between the dollar and the euro.

So the ONLY true way to evaluate the "premium" for a Steinway vs. a Bosie is to know the wholesale cost and calculate the margin relative to the selling price.

Please provide the wholesale cost for a Steinway and a Bosie and we can determine with no question.

data and references please?

Unfortunately, I think wholesale cost is something that most dealers would rather keep under wraps...don't hold your breath.

What does it matter what the dealer margin is? As a buyer, I care only about the price and what I'm getting for it. Bosendorfers cost more to buy than comparable Steinways. That's a fact.

Steinways are better pianos than Bosendorfers and represent better value. That's an opinion.

It helps to think of this issue at 3 levels -- (i) the cost of materials, labor, overhead, etc to produce the piano at the factory (which we can further complicate by layering in promotion/mktg (higher per piano for Steinway than Bos?), (ii) the price the manufacturer is willing to sell to the dealer, which includes profit to the manufacturer, i.e., the wholesale price and, (iii) the retail price (not MSRP) that the dealer actually sells the piano for, including his mark-up or profit.

I think most of us are willing to pay for quality (materials, design and craftsmanship) and would agree that the manufacturer should make a fair profit (which probably increases per piano as quality increases). Hence the great interest in knowing what "ii" is, i.e, the wholesale price, which is somewhat analogous to "dealer invoice" when we buy cars. Purely guessing, I could imagine the Bosendorfer factory having a wholesale price at least $20,000 dollars higher on a 225 than Steinway's B. If true, I'm sure we can debate whether that is a "premium", or based on more expensive materials/quality, or higher costs since Bos has less manufacturing volume/scale than Steinway.

Which leads to the issue of dealer mark-up. So I'll make up some numbers purely for illustrative purposes and please recognize I am merely guessing. What profit would we agree is fair to the dealer on a Bos 225 and on a Steinway B? Let's say it was $20,000 on the Bos 225 and $40,000 on the Steinway. This may be way off but I would guess directionally correct. Of course this is all irrelevant if one loves the Steinway, but to some extent we like to understand what we are paying, where profit is being made and have a rough sense of costs relative to price.

I have also heard that Steinway's success in having "all Steinway" colleges and universities is in part a function of much lower pricing universities get when buying multiple pianos -- way lower than typical volume discounts in my opinion. Which supports my belief that the wholesale cost is much lower for Steinway than Bosendorfer, therefore allowing for a much higher dealer markup. I think to some extent retail buyers are subsidizing "institutional" buyers, like univerisities, music schools, etc.

I welcome any thoughts that can help me understand this better.

Why do you think it is fair for a Steinway Dealer to get double the profit on a Steinway B that costs them less, is smaller, sells in greater quantity more quickly, and which you believe to be inferior to the Bose 225? I am not agreeing with your numbers, just trying to understand the logic behind them.



Even assuming that your info is good on Steinway's pricing to colleges and universities ( a big assumption ) there are no typical volume discounts in the piano industry to compare with Steinway schools. They are regularly selling schools up to 150 pianos, combinations of Steinways, Bostons and Essex, and I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone else doing anything even in the same universe as that.

By the way, the Bose 225 is my favorite Bose! Congrats on that!

Based on all the above, this must be a heck of a deal:

http://www.pianomart.com/ViewAds.aspx?type=1&manufacturer=9&piano=9614

It is a Conservatory Series Bosie, which means the looks aren't quite as nice, and IIRC they are loop strung rather than single strung. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that, but it might be construed as "lesser" than the top-of-the-line models.

This is totally OT but that Pianomart site sure looks very strange today.

I'm viewing from Safari on my iMac, the right half page now seems to be a border. I hadn't been on the site in ages till I clicked on the link just now.
I seem to remember , from when I had my S6 and D for sale, the ad taking up the whole page, it seems to have shrunk now.

It's just less than half, on my Mac using Firefox 3.6.

wg73,

There is more data to provide a reference point.
The dealer wholesale cost of the Bosendorfer 225 is significantly higher than that of a Steinway model B.
It has been repeatedly been said here before in this thread.

Larry Fine's SMP (suggested maximum price) is aiming for a formula which is equally derived from the wholesale cost of the instrument to the dealer.

While he does no always succeed in getting the true wholesale number, 90% of the time and to within 10% of the price his numbers are accurate.

In both Steinway and Bosendorfer's case I believe the numbers to be accurate and calculated quite evenly from wholesale as appeared in the last supplement.

The SMP price of the Steinway B: $77,700
The SMP price for the Bosie 225: $120,925

This means that the wholesale price of a Bosendorfer 225 is about 55% higher than that of the Steinway B.


In my last post I used the example you gave regarding the prices, to demonstrate that your friend bought his Bosendorfer for about 38% higher than the average Steinway B was sold for at the time.

So this means that he bought a piano that wholesales for 55% higher for only 38% higher in price.

This means that a few years ago, at 90K, the Bosendorfer was sold for a significantly lower profit margin to the dealer than the average Steinway B was sold for with a price of 65K.


By the way, I too completely agree that the larger and more expensive Bosendorfer model 225 is not a fair comparison to a Steinway B.

I think that the 6'7 or 7' CS would be the best comparison with the 6'10.5 steinway B.
Indeed, the SMP on these models is only 5% - 15% higher than that of the Steinway B rather than 55%.

I also agree that the Hamburg Steinway model C is a better comparison to the Bosie 225 when considering size, performance, or price.

Regarding exchange rates and the way they affect piano prices, over short periods of time it has a much lesser affect than it appears some try to suggest here.

A couple of years ago the dollar was between 1.50 and almost 1.60 per euro (as I recall it was 1.59 at some point).
The dollar is 15% stronger now (1.35 as I'm writing this), yet we have not seen a decline in the price of most European pianos.
While of course the stronger dollar helped slowing price increases, the general price trend is still going upwards.

Similarly, when the dollar was getting weaker, the rate of price increases in the US for many piano brands was much lower than the drop in the dollar’s value and not much higher than the rate of the price increase in Europe needed to compensate for rising manufacturing costs (i.e excluding euro based price increases).

Would price increases on European pianos are likely to accelerate if/when the dollar drops down again to levels of 1.50 – 1.60 per euro?

Of course…the prices on Euro pianos in such a case are likely to increase, but again, a drop of 15% in the value of the dollar is not going to translate right away to an increase of 15% in piano prices (in addition to Euro based priced increases to cover for inflation).


The reason is that most piano companies either hedge or absorb short term fluctuations in currencies.

Not all depend solely on the US market and they are still selling their pianos in countries with stronger currencies (or in Europe) currencies which allows them to absorb costs in one market.

A good number of the European manufacturers are small family owned companies.
Some have enough resources, allowing them the choice of when and if to convert their piano sales dollar revenue to Euro or invest/keep it in dollars until the right time.
At least one of these family owned companies kept revenue from piano sales that were generated during a weaker dollar period in US investments, and converted to Euros only when the dollar was stronger again.

Granted, not all manufacturers are in a position to do so, however, this might be just another another advantage for small, nimble family owned companies.

Of course, some manufacturers price their pianos in euro, ex factory, and may not do too much to fight currency fluctuations… but these are in the minority.


In addition, even for pianos made in the US, some parts and materials are imported…which act’s, at least to a certain degree, as an equalizer.
Whether it is soundboards, plates, hardware, casters, strings, or actions parts…a weaker dollar translates into higher costs for these companies…while these parts remain the same or even become less expensive for companies with stronger currencies.

What each piano retailers margins are I cannot say.
Would a high-end European piano hold its value better than say an American, I think that is a given.
Everyone set aside this circular debate on wholesale, retail, markups and discounts and lets just look at the actual quality of components:

Within the piano trade here in North America, it is generally accepted that most felt products that come from the higher European suppliers are far superior to what is made and used in North America. This refers to things like key punchings, key frame felts, hammerheads to some degree and action leathers too.
Music wire is also the same situation. The high quality wire from European makers is considered better than that supplied by the North American DRAWN wire maker. Even more interesting is the fact that I once asked my German wire supplier if the wire that is sent to America's supply company is the same grade that is used in Europe and they said no. So even when techs might think they are getting 'the good stuff' by ordering the European brand through the American supply store, it is not the same as is going into the German made pianos in Europe.

Why do I bother saying all this????
The pieces going into a European piano cost more right from the start (we've already acknowledged these are better quality) and so naturally the wholesale should be greater. Therefore the retail will be greater and if they are selling at greater discount percentages than their American competitor, obviously they are providing a greater concession for which all should be grateful, even if the price is still a little more.
This would make sense that the margins are in fact greater for an American made Steinway over a high end European competitor - forgetting about MSRP's and considering what matters = the going market price.

Not to mention...
In any other industry, if a manufacturing company made their product in such a way that three side by side, would yield wildly differing results, that company would never survive.

I am all for someone buying and loving what touches them most, absolutely. But let's not kid ourselves as to which are really the best! How many European born and bred concert pianists demand an American Steinway in Europe over any other brand of instrument as they play and tour the concert halls over there?

John,

I know Anton Kuerti does...

Born in Austria but prefers a NY Steinway over both Hamburg Steinway AND Bosendorfer. And Bechstein/Bluthner,etc...

Jordy,

I think the 5 year old Bosie CS214 being sold on pianomart in the link you posted would be a very interesting alternative to the Steinway B. It's the about the same size (7', or 1.5 inches longer) and the only noteworthy difference between a "regular" 214 and the CS series is the lower cost satin finish (same as Steinway?) and that the treble strings (3 per note) are "loop-strung" (like Steinway) instead of having 3 separate strings for each note, each with there own pins (obviously a more costly/labor intensive method). These differences result in a Larry Fine List Price of $94K -- $29K lower than the regular 214. I speak from very limited experience (seeing them being built in the Austrian factory tour and playing in showrooms) but have heard that this design was intended to have a different sound character (less clean or pure in my opinion) than regular Bosendorfers, perhaps meant to appeal to people accustomed to a US (vs European) sound (Steinway perhaps?).

So if I were you, I would check out the used CS214 (I wouldn't think there would be many used ones around) because you may love it and save yourself a lot of money, certainly compared to a new Steinway B. (I forget whether the one you saw was new or used.) The $47,500 feels like a fair price - not a steal but the seller may be willing to negotiate. [My guess would be $94K list - 30% = $66K estimated selling - 25% depreciation for 5 years = $49.5K.]

Hope your close enough to check it out. And add to your dreams by getting both, in the same room in your house and then you can go crazy never being able to figure out which one you love more.....

Keith,

Sorry that my comment was not clear - I was trying to suggest that difference is NOT fair, i.e, if my "mark-ups" of $20K (Bosie) and $40K (Steinway) are even directionally accurate, although I am happy to pay a higher wholesale price for perceived quality/value I DO NOT think the profit to the dealer should be very different. So I believe that the higher wholesale price for Bosie's is offset to a material degree by the "extra" profit a Steinway dealer captures. So that that actual price paid for a Bosie is not as much higher as the wholesale price difference would suggest, i.e., better value, assuming you prefer the Bosie.

These types of posts, when ignored, are the reasons PW is so misleading to the innocent, piano reading perusers...
Anton Kuerti was not born and bred in Europe. Born in Austria, yes, but studied and bred in the United States.

So I pose my question again:


Just so it is clear, I hold Mr. Anton Kuerti among the finest pianists, and for him to have chosen to settle eventually in Canada is a gift that we Canadians should hopefully never take for granted.

I don't know about piano choices for concerts in europe, but
the international contestents at the last cliburn had both ny and hamburg to pick from and ny had a slight edge.Here is the link to horowatzian's post on the numbers-- http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1301077/Horowitzian.html#Post1301077

Janiveer,
According to the thread you refer to, the Cliburn competition is held at a Steinway and Sons ONLY venue. Hopefully the contestants would find it in themselves to at least settle on one of the S&S that were available.
At that competition, what would have been interesting is if other high end European piano brands were made available, how many pianists that used the NY Steinway would have chosen something European instead?
The Cliburn competition says nothing to support anything of Steinway since no other pianos were represented.
If a Honda Accord entered a competition against a Honda Civic, who would win? Honda.
What does that say? Nothing.

"janiveer,
According to the thread you refer to, the Cliburn competition is held at a Steinway and Sons ONLY venue. Hopefully the contestants would find it in themselves to at least settle on one of the S&S that were available.
At that competition, what would have been interesting is if other high end European piano brands were made available, how many pianists that used the NY Steinway would have chosen something European instead?
The Cliburn competition says nothing to support anything of Steinway since no other pianos were represented.
If a Honda Accord entered a competition against a Honda Civic, who would win? Honda.
What does that say? Nothing."


What does it say? It confounds you're claim that no european born & bred pianists choose American Steinway over another euopean brand,Which you relate to the superiority of materials in european made pianos.

Interestingly, the Cliburn wasn't always only Steinway. At the 1985 Cliburn (Feghali was the winner that year), the competitors had Steinway, Baldwin, Bösendorfer, and Bechstein to choose from IIRC.

Back in those days, it was held on the TCU campus.

John,
I know very well where Mr Kuerti studied, as can any 'innocent piano-reading peruser' with half a brain and a search engine. The reason I mentioned Kuerti is as much to do with him being recognized as a leading interpreter in music which is commonly associated more with European pianos than big, bold NY Steinways, as it does with his place of birth or training.

This "European pianos are the best and European pianists KNOW best" line of thought holds little water with many folks here, especially when pianists like Kuerti, Horowitz, Hough, and Rachmaninov express(ed) such a strong preference for the American product.

I for one will take a Hamburg Steinway over anything except perhaps your very own Steingraeber, or potentially a Faz or a Bechstein depending on the repertoire.

However, every pianist worth his salt knows that a particularly fine NY D is a very special piano indeed. It is rare to find a pianist who demands such a piano in the great halls of Europe due to reasons of practicality, not to mention the obvious fact that the German D is such a marvelous instrument.

Let's not get too elitist with this European stuff...
NY Steinway, with a bit of work, is RIGHT up there with the best of 'em. REGARDLESS of what Ori may think.

Very well said...totally agreed.

Janiveer, please don't misquote me. Take another look at what I wrote (third time now):



If the answer to this question is none(or even one or two)...., sorry, I don't understand what the fuss is about with the NY Steinways then. They simply aren't among the best.

What passes you ain't for you.

If you think this line of argument is proof of german piano superiority, then What about this; How many European{or north and south american} born and bred concert pianists demand a German Steinway in America over any other brand of instrument as they play and tour the concert halls over here?

If the answer to this question is only one or two,does that mean the fuss over "German made piano" is unjustified?

OMG, I was listening to the piano bar in the Adult Beginner Forum and I asked "Larry" what kind of piano he had, because it sounded so beautiful and he just wrote me back, and guess what he said.....HE OWNS A STEINWAY B!! I'll never get that sound out of my head...what have I done?

Taken another step closer to your own B, I'm sure!

For concerts in NYC's Carnegie Hall, my experience over the last 40 years is that the majoirity of the pianists choose Hamburg Steinway.

So we all have our biases (and perhaps agendas). Here are my views (biases?) and a thought about the future.

- I happen to favor the Bosendorfer sound over the Steinway sound
- It seems there is some consensus that the quality of materials and craftsmanship, consistency and preparation for the highest quality European pianos is higher than the NY Steinways, which I happen to value, especially given my preference for their sound
- It seems that to get the best sound from a Steinway, selecting the right one (back to the consistency comment) and having it really well prepped is key. (If I worked for Steinway I would address this issue)
- As per earlier posts, I don't like the fact that the dealer mark-up seems much higher on Steinways. Again if I wanted that sound, I would "suck it up", but it's a turn-off, and also impacts value retention
- I resist the fact that Steinway has very effectively leveraged the brand to garner an extraordinarily high concert hall market share, "all-Steinway music schools and universities, etc. (I'm sure they have many internal discussions about how to hold on to that legacy market position and retail dealer pricing power.)

But maybe there's a trend developing. Someone must have this information: the actual unit volume for the last 10 years for each of Larry Fine's Group 1 Highest quality pianos and now that I look at it, group 2 as well. I don't know the numbers, but given Steinway's relatively high volume and legacy market position they must have had a unit market share of 50% or more 10 years ago (how many Steinways are sitting in the living rooms merely as pieces of decorative furniture but the owners don't know how to play?). I would bet as more and more people in the US are discovering the quality and value of some of the much lower volume but very special European brands, NY Steinway's share of market has been eroding. Of course, their historically high market share was probably unsustainable anyways. So the customers/musicians preferences should be evident in which brands have been gaining share in the market and how this evolves in the future as people discover that although Steinway is certainly among the best known brands (of any product), there are some pretty impressive alternatives in the Piano World.

Yes, if only one or two does, then that means the fuss over German made pianos is unjustified! Period.
OH Janiveer, did you catch what followed your post:



I rest my case.

BTW, Haleydog, very well put thoughts on the matter.

While I respect your own tastes in pianos, I don't think that these statements are entirely accurate. It certainly isn't a secret that the New York and Hamburg people have been working together a lot more in the last several years or so (IIRC they even moved some of the Hamburg brass over here), and New York has been working to correct some of the small issues that they've had in years past.

It certainly shows in the newer B's (like mine, the 'B 5', as marked on the tail of the plate) which are more consistent right out of the box than the previous model B. I've played several besides mine (which is marvelous), and they are all good pianos. They still exhibit their own personalities, but none are dogs that I have seen.



Steinway's presence on the concert stage is largely a post WW II phenomenon. A large portion of the European piano industry is in Germany, and it was in complete shambles following the war. As I understand it, NY Steinway was virtually the only quality piano that was in a position to fill up the vacancies of those firms on stages. I believe the Hamburg factory was bombed, so they were down for the count.

In the postwar years, the German piano industry slowly recovered, and today it is largely intact (and flourishing with a diversity of brands that the US hasn't seen for a hundred years), with Steinway's Hamburg instruments becoming a large force on the concert stage, arguably larger than their New York counterparts.

To give a hint of the prewar piano diversity, I submit this quote from David Dubal's book Remembering Horowitz:



Today, an artist arriving from Russia very likely wouldn't consider anything else but the Steinway.

I simply disagree with that conclusion newgeneration, My point is that if there were a lack of pianists Demanding to play on a german instrument as they tour N.America, that would not mean that the fuss over german pianos is unjustified, no more than the lack of pianists demanding to play on masons or chickerings over the decades while touring europe means that those non-german instruments are inferior.

"For concerts in NYC's Carnegie Hall, my experience over the last 40 years is that the majoirity of the pianists choose Hamburg Steinway."

This is completely an incorrect statement. I can only guess that since the NY Concert & Artist pianos have been made in a High Polish finish for the last five years that you may mistake them for the Hamburg pianos on the concert stage.

Any of you seen the movie "Note by Note"?

There is a scene where Pierre-Laurent Aimard selects a piano for his Carnegie Recital. When he arrives, he greets and kisses a blond woman in the NY concert basement. That woman is my wife and the former Manager of the NY Concert and Artist Department. (1998 to 2004) She handled all of the C&A selections, rentals and on site tuning service and scheduling for Carnegie and Lincoln Center. (to name just a few of the Hall's we service in NYC)

So I can tell you for personal and professional experience that the statement made above is false.

I love this forum, but when people make incorrect statements and others use them as the basis of their argument, it is sad.

Small point: they haven't been doing the NY pianos up in poly for 40 years (yet).

I went to the Great Pianists(both series I and II) series for 20 years and I think the majority of Steinways had the rounded arms and nob on the side that I thought meant they are Hamburg Steinways. Is this not the case?

I don't doubt you are correct when if one is considering all the piano recitals and concerto performances at CH. My experience is from the Great Pianists series only.

Horowitzian,

Yes, that is why I placed in my previous post "the last five years". I get many people over the last five years making the mistake when they see the HP ebony finish.

I understand that ( ), but plover specifically mentioned over a period of 40 years, in which case your response would not be accurate save for the last 5 years.

However, I have done double takes from a distance myself! But closer examination reveals the piano to be of New York manufacture (Sheraton arms, brass plate on the lyre, small nonlocking casters). An OT question: Are the NY D's now shipping with large German locking casters? I've seen a couple equipped with them.

I've gone back a few years to try and dig up the specific order, (and i haven't located it yet) but here's something interesting for all the true NY Steinway lovers...
(sshhhh, I'm whispering now: My bass strings are on a Steinway in the Lincoln Center). And we produce our strings with what you'd find over in the higher end European pianos. I'm happy to hear you are all so impressed with the sound of 'your NY Steinway' at least in the Lincoln Center.

Also, a small number of very high end American rebuilders are completely redesigning the soundboard - bridge relationship for Steinway M's, A's, B's and D's and using our strings, not... Steinways. So when you folks are coming across Steinways and 'they blow you away' - hmmm, wonder if any of those have been after the handy work of post Steinway factory workers.

I have been wondering for quite a while now if this information should be let out. I couldn't resist any longer.

Subtle plug?

You are unbelievable... from everything I said, you come up with



That's what you take away from this, huh? What a waste of my time.
geez

Well, mate, I couldn't help but read that into your post due to your choice of words. After reading your somewhat unclear prose, all I got out of it is that you are plugging your business. Perhaps this is not your intent, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me otherwise. Care to set me straight as to your intended meaning?

Horowitzian,

Correct. Since 2009, all NY model D's have had the Hamburg style "large" casters. (it also has a shorter leg to compensate for the taller caster)

To confuse you more, a few of our NYC C&A pianos have had the Hamburg large caster conversion several years ago. Certain halls, like Carnegie, asked for the larger caster because it is easier for them to roll the piano on and off stage.

So as you mentioned, if you're in the audience the best way to tell if the Steinway is NY or Hamburg is the arm. (Hamburg being rounded, NY the square "sheraton" style)

Thanks for the info, Gavin.

It's a smart move, because those casters look better on stage, too. When I think of someone rolling the piano around, I always think of that Victor Borge skit with Sergio Franchi. Those casters would have made that a lot easier!

Chock. In Denmark the salesprice for a B is 650.000 kr., which is about 117.683 US-dollars - a huge price difference. I find it rather chocking... I would like to ask the PianoForum about the price of a B´ round the world. 1. In your own valuta 2. And the price converted to US-dollars.