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#1451172 - 06/06/10 01:17 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1651
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Bill, GPM, from your comments it seems I nailed it.

I don't want to get my main point lost though, that this is a 100% a machine tuning, and EBVT can be machine tuned with high quality results. When tuning I just stopped the display for every note (wearing earplugs) and did not listen to anything.

After I was done I went over Bill's 21 page tuning instructions and found a few faults. Double checking with tunelab it turned out those faulty notes had drifted. When retuning them with tunelab again they were in complete accord with the EVBT instructions.

Kees

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#1451345 - 06/06/10 11:42 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: DoelKees]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1589
Loc: Mexico City
Hi guys! It's been a long time since the last time I posted in PW.

It took me 3 whole days to read all posts in this thread. It's really amazing.

Kamin disapeared for the A/B tests! All along with his perfect pitch. I was waiting for him to come in and enlighten us mortals about the uggly dissonances and unbalanced intervals he only can hear in those EBVT III recordings. But to my surprise he didn't answer.

Much to the credit of Bill statement that they (the ET only tuners) won't accept the challenge.

Also UnrightTooner was quiet! The only one able to tune 15/16 beat rate ratios! The one able to tune a smooth progression of fiths (fourths) in the temperament octave. He was unable to distiguish the presence of pure and tempered 5ths/4ths in the uneven EBVT III temperament.

Not to speak about all the other ET partisans: BDB, Emery, Mark, Stopper, Capurso, and forgive me if I inadvently forget someone else...

But I shouldn't blame anyone because I my self neither could tell which was which. At least by simply hearing these recordings on my computer.

When I play music on my piano, I can immediately tell if it is tuned in ET or in WT. Also if I play a run of chromatic M3s I hear ipso facto the eveness of ET or the uneveness of EBVT III.

But when hearing those recordings... I was not 100% sure.

What is outrageous is that those same recordings were blamed previously when it was clearly said they were EBVT III tunings, and were qualified as harmony destroyers, unbalanced, wrong, mistuned, etc.

How is it possible for those same recordings to become undistinguishable from ET? What kind of magic has operated here?

The answer is simple: prejudices! Only prejudices that cloud their ears and prevent them to hear music!

Bravo GPM and Bill! You've made your point! Those who are against UT could not say nothing anymore! They had to keep quiet!


The first WT I tuned was, if I remember right, Broadwood Best. Then I tuned Moore and Moore and I liked it very much. But I was and still am unable to tune it by ear. Only with my Verituner I can tune those WT. But ETDs have limitations. I wanted to tune aurally.

Then I discovered EBVT III and I began soon to tune it by ear. Someone here has posted that it will take 4 months to learn it. I disagree, for me it was question of some 3 or 4 tunings and voila: I was tuning by ear. It is not that difficlult, the main differences from ET are: 6 bps F3-A3, pure 5ths/4ths, equal beating fast beating intervals (M3s, M6), equal beating slow beating intervals (P5ths, P4ths): easy done! The rest is done exactly as in ET, I mean 6:3 and 4:2 octaves. Of course you must have tuning hammer technique and all other tuning skills. But if you can tune ET then you can easyly tune EBVT III: there is nothing new in it that you don't already know.

The advantage of aural tuning vs ETD is that it makes possible to tune stretched octaves of different sizes: for example A3-A4 = 6:3, F3-F4 = 4:2, D4-D5 larger than C4-C5, etc. And it makes also easier the tuning of mindless octaves i.e. equal beating double octave/octave + fifths, though this can be done electronically via direct interval tuning, it is cumbersome and time consuming, at least for me with the Verituner.

So here we are, listening to all these people, musicians and tuners, charmed with the expressive musicality of EBVT III and those frustrated "ET only" tuners who have nothing more to argue against EBVT III.


Edited by Gadzar (06/06/10 12:07 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1451360 - 06/06/10 12:25 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Gadzar]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Gadzar,

Shhhhhhhhhhhh! It was just getting quiet in here and easier to sift through all of the garbage reading... Don't stir the pot dude! :-)))
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1451363 - 06/06/10 12:31 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1589
Loc: Mexico City
Sorry. I arrived late into this thread and I'm afraid it was all said before I came in. I won't say nothing more.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1451381 - 06/06/10 01:08 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Gadzar]
ranger Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 42
Loc: USA
Maybe off topic, but I heard once that Horowitz took his piano and piano tuner with him everywhere he performed. He preferred a tuning temperament that had a 'rolling' sound to it. I wonder what temperament his tuner used? Does anyone know? Just wondering...

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#1451384 - 06/06/10 01:33 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: ranger]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1589
Loc: Mexico City
As far as I know, Franz Möhr, Horowitz's tuner-technician, tuned ET using an up a 5th-down a 4th sequence between A3-A4.

A4<-440 hz. fork
A3<-A4 down an octave
E4<-A3 up a fifth
B3<-E4 down a fourth
F#4<-B3 up a fifth
C#4<-F#4 down a fourth
G#4<-C#4 up a fifth
D#4<-G#4 down a fourth
A#3<-D#4 down a fourth
F4<-A#3 up a fifth
C4<-F4 down a fourth
G4<-C4 up a fifth
D4<-G4 down a fourth

D4 must close the circle with A4.

The tuning of all notes is arranged in a way that you first tune a pure fifth/fourth and then flatten it to correctly temper the corresponding fifth/fourth. It is meant to setting of the tuning pins, rendering of the strings and to contribute to a greater stability of the tuning.

The most difficult issue with this sequence is to correctly temper each interval to achieve a real Equal Temperament.


Edited by Gadzar (06/06/10 01:37 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1451484 - 06/06/10 05:31 PM My Piano in EBVT III, ET--EBVT III blind test [Re: Gadzar]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2302
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Greetings everyone smile

To further the understanding of EBVT III, and to give another chance for folks to guess which is which, here is the Jazz version/selection "Oh Danny Boy" played on my piano through the LX playback system. www.live-performance.com

One is in ET, using the Reyburn Cyber Tuner, OCT 5 stretch, and the other is in EBVT III using Bill's live EBVT III tuning figures for my piano, inserted into the Iphone Tunelab. Both selections are the same LX file and have been normalized for volume etc. The corresponding WAV file is also included, which will give you a better quality sound.

Please feel free to comment, and also post what you feel is the ET and EBVT III temperament. Will post the correct answers later in the thread. Headphones are suggested. smile


1. "Oh Danny Boy" No.1 MP3 http://www.box.net/shared/7bkbzg3j4r

2. "Oh Danny Boy" No.2 MP3 http://www.box.net/shared/ldshlkkarp


1. "Oh Danny Boy" No 11 WAV http://www.box.net/shared/xn3s13b37h

2. "Oh Danny Boy" No.22 WAV http://www.box.net/shared/1mvrhcclb1




Edited by Grandpianoman (06/06/10 06:39 PM)

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#1451511 - 06/06/10 06:30 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III, ET--EBVT III blind test [Re: Grandpianoman]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
OK. I'll be the first guinea pig now that I saw this one posted. I missed the last one because I wasn't reading everything posted. To much garbage to sift through.

1. ET.
2. EBVT III

You know, they both sound very good, all in all. Some out of tune unison's here and there make it more difficult to decipher BUT, I'll be happy to make a fool out of myself if I'm wrong because I am liking the EBVT III more and more all the time anyway. For a while I was not liking it at all.... I am finding it more and more interesting all the time. Basically, I find it a very interesting sounding tuning.

As I said before, there is more than one way to accomplish the same goal. Last week Friday for fun, I tuned using the EBVT III and then checked the tenor section with my RCT set in its normal mode and everything in that section was less than 1¢ off. Most of it was right around 1/2¢ off or less or dead on with my RCT. So, either I tuned EBVT incorrectly, or I tuned it correctly, I'm not sure which being an amateur at this new tuning...

Any Thoughts?

Who else is unafraid of guessing?
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1451513 - 06/06/10 06:34 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III, ET--EBVT III blind test [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2302
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Jerry, good for you for being the first one to jump in here! Let's hope more will join you. smile

I will change my post above to reflect that the ET I tuned for "Oh Danny Boy" was from my RCT, OCT 5 stretch.

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#1451522 - 06/06/10 06:59 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III, ET--EBVT III blind test [Re: Grandpianoman]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1589
Loc: Mexico City
Ok. Here I go: frown

I really dont hear a temperament difference.

But I like more the sonority of the number 2 as a whole, so I'll put it as the EBVT III.

1. ET
2. EBVT III

(Note please that if I were an ET oriented tuner I would attribute the better sonority to ET and I'd conclude exactly the opposite.)


Edited by Gadzar (06/06/10 09:07 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1451647 - 06/06/10 11:00 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III, ET--EBVT III blind test [Re: Gadzar]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2302
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Welcome Rafael,

Thanks for your insights and for your guess. Will post the key later in the post.

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#1451651 - 06/06/10 11:15 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III, ET--EBVT III blind test [Re: Grandpianoman]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1651
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Ok. Here I go:

I really dont hear a temperament difference.

But I like more the sonority of the number 2 as a whole, so I'll put it as the EBVT III.

1. ET
2. EBVT III

(Note please that if I were an ET oriented tuner I would attribute the better sonority to ET and I'd conclude exactly the opposite.)

smile

Kees

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#1451659 - 06/06/10 11:35 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III, ET--EBVT III blind test [Re: DoelKees]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2302
Loc: Portland, Oregon
We'll I'll be, I never thought I would see plagiarism here in PW~! wink

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#1451727 - 06/07/10 04:00 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III, ET--EBVT III blind test [Re: Grandpianoman]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
Greetings everyone smile

To further the understanding of EBVT III, and to give another chance for folks to guess which is which, here is the Jazz version/selection "Oh Danny Boy" played on my piano through the LX playback system. www.live-performance.com

One is in ET, using the Reyburn Cyber Tuner, OCT 5 stretch, and the other is in EBVT III using Bill's live EBVT III tuning figures for my piano, inserted into the Iphone Tunelab. Both selections are the same LX file and have been normalized for volume etc. The corresponding WAV file is also included, which will give you a better quality sound.

Please feel free to comment, and also post what you feel is the ET and EBVT III temperament. Will post the correct answers later in the thread. Headphones are suggested. smile


1. "Oh Danny Boy" No.1 MP3 http://www.box.net/shared/7bkbzg3j4r

2. "Oh Danny Boy" No.2 MP3 http://www.box.net/shared/ldshlkkarp


1. "Oh Danny Boy" No 11 WAV http://www.box.net/shared/xn3s13b37h

2. "Oh Danny Boy" No.22 WAV http://www.box.net/shared/1mvrhcclb1




Hey GP, lol, I could tell which was my tuning the very first notes that were played! There is a "lilt" in the octaves that gives it away immediately but I won't say which is which because I don't want to give it away.

Now, the RCT tuning does have some stretch in the octaves but not as much as I put. When you go on to listen to the whole recording, there is this bland quality to the RCT tuning versus the singing quality in the EBVT III. You hear it in the very highest note of the melody. The EBVT III puts that pitch right wear you want to really hear it but the RCT tuning falls short of that and flat.

Don't get me wrong, both recordings sound just fine. The RCT version is perfectly acceptable. Danny Boy is a singer's song. Think about being the judge at an audition. Both candidates sing very well but one just has that extra quality which makes you choose him over the other.

Now, some people could focus immediately on the octaves that I heard first off had that extra lilt to them and compare them to the other recording where they sounded closer to pure and decide on that factor alone. Some may perceive the lack of texture in what remains as being more to their liking. I'm afraid, however that most people would enjoy and delight in the rich texture provided by the EBVT III.

The extra bit of tension and release in the chromatic modulation that occurs at the end and in other places gives it away too. The RCT version just neutralizes it all. I picked it all up with only the MP3 file on my crummy computer speakers with fan noise in the background.

Rafael, it is SO good to see you back again! It has been far too long! Your perspective on everything is so right on. I would say, however that the reason you don't see much of any comment from Tooner is that he does not have the equipment to listen to all of these various samples. He and some others don't even want to try to make comparisons.



I have read that there was a big seminar with Petrof pianos at Pianos y Organos in Mexico City recently. Did you attend? What do you have to say about it? I vividly recall being to a series of three conferences in Mexico City in 1989-1991. It seemed to me even then that there could be a PTG chapter formed in Mexico City. One person told me, "No, that could never happen".

The boss of the Pianos y Organos store behaved like a plantation owner as far as I was concerned. In a private meeting, he said to the late Danny Boone as I was there listening, "Let me tell you about my people...". He, dressed in his business suit, knew of the superior knowledge and ways of Americans but considered that his "people" could never hold a candle to it. He seemed to want to keep it that way too. The pianos in his store sounded mediocre to downright bad and the concert he took us to featuring a Petrof piano was not impressive.

He did not want technicians to be able to buy tools and supplies at affordable prices. He held out for 100% profits after exchange rates and tariffs on every item and forbade a one time opportunity for a supplier to sell at its normal rates (wholesale prices) in Mexico.

If you attended that conference, I would be most interested to read you comments, perhaps in a new thread.


Edited by Piano World (06/08/10 07:10 PM)
Edit Reason: Removed offensive remarks
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1451792 - 06/07/10 09:10 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III, ET--EBVT III blind test [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Quote:
Either way, those on the ET only list have already made up their minds. We already know what their opinion is whether we read it or not and whether they ever listen to anything or not.


I have to disagree with you a little bit on that point Bill. But, just a little bit. Although, for the most part, you are correct. Just not with me. I had made up my mind totally at one point that I hated EBVT III. But, I tried keeping an open mind to various possibilities with tuning methods, kept listening, kept trying and kept learning. I still don't have all quite yet but, will keep trying...
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1451824 - 06/07/10 10:26 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III, ET--EBVT III blind test [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Mark R. Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1933
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Why is it necessary to classify people so? I see a lot of "box thinking" in this thread. Words like "partisan" and the likes.

Frankly, I resent this. Can one not use a forum to learn from one another?

Last December, I actually tuned my parents' harpsichord to (a first attempt at) EBVT III. I actually e-mailed Bill with my feedback, which was NOT all negative. To wit, my parents normally use it for chorales in the closer keys, so they really liked the more harmonious major thirds. However, the more remote keys were (obviously) more colorful, which to my ear, was problematic. A flat major was one of them, but it may have been a mistake in my interpretation of Bill's tuning instructions. So to my mind, there were some positive aspects, some not-so-positive. Certainly I never condemned EBVT III outright.

But somewhere in this thread, I expressed the sentiments that I actually prefer the same type of third in all twelve keys.

And this now makes me an "ET partisan" who won't accept a challenge? And puts me in a box with all those bad ET-only-people? I was actually one of the first to take the test, and I even added a bit of self-irony, because when the results were published, it turned out I got all those answers wrong that I thought were easy!

Why is it necessary to continue with these stereotypes of "us" and "them", "friend" and "enemy" etc. etc.

As a musician interested in piano technology, I find tuning and temperaments really interesting, but I'm afraid this "camp thinking" takes out all the fun in reading these threads. It's a shame that these threads keep returning to offensive-defensive behavior, instead of focussing on the actual matter on hand, namely temperaments!
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1451829 - 06/07/10 10:43 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III, ET--EBVT III blind test [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark R. Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1933
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Now, the RCT tuning does have some stretch in the octaves but not as much as I put. When you go on to listen to the whole recording, there is this bland quality to the RCT tuning versus the singing quality in the EBVT III. You hear it in the very highest note of the melody. The EBVT III puts that pitch right wear you want to really hear it but the RCT tuning falls short of that and flat.


Bill, I thought the EBVT III only has to do with the temperament octave?

Are temperament and stretch not two independent things?

From what you wrote above, I deduce that that the pipe organ effect is actually ascribable to the right amount of stretch in the high treble, rather than to the type of temperament used - is this correct?

Surely, you could tune the temperament octave to ET, but still use your characteristic amount of stretch? Would this not also give a pipe organ effect?

Or is the pipe organ effect actually a result of both the EBVT III temperament AND the right amount of stretch?

I'm just trying to clarify terminology here. You say that the EBVT puts that top note in the right place. But is it not the stretch that puts the note into place?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1451992 - 06/07/10 02:41 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III, ET--EBVT III blind test [Re: Mark R.]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2302
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Continuing on the road ahead, here is another A/B example.

As in "Oh Danny Boy", this is an LX encoded file played through the LX system. www.live-performance.com I used the RCT OCT 5 for the ET temperament, and the Iphone Tunelab for the EBVT III temperament. Headphones are recommended. Please feel free to comment. smile


1."Il Postino" No.1 MP3 http://www.box.net/shared/yyd0qx6gxe

2."Il Postino" No.2 MP3 http://www.box.net/shared/upaaya7tbd



1."Il Postino" No.11 WAV http://www.box.net/shared/b4xdakteap

2. "Il Postino" No.22 WAV http://www.box.net/shared/xc809oly0p

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#1452146 - 06/07/10 05:33 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1651
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
For comparison here's the pipe organ effect in just intonation, without doing anything special to the octaves (just beatless sounding).

Pipe organ effect just intonation

It seems much less rich than with EBVT

Kees

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#1452166 - 06/07/10 05:55 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: DoelKees]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2302
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Very interesting Kees....in the your EBVT, I hear more sonority, than the just intonation example....that is the same thing I hear live with my piano....the after-sound has a bloom to it, along with the give and take of the harmonies.



Edited by Grandpianoman (06/07/10 05:55 PM)

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#1452208 - 06/07/10 06:54 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Alan T. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 99
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Danny Boy #2 is EBVT.
_________________________
Piano Tuner
Schimmel 174T

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#1452235 - 06/07/10 07:37 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: DoelKees]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
For comparison here's the pipe organ effect in just intonation, without doing anything special to the octaves (just beatless sounding).

Pipe organ effect just intonation

It seems much less rich than with EBVT

Kees


Surely you mean it sounds less rich than with stretched octaves? I'm with Mark on this one - it seems to be the octave type that give the pipe organ effect a lot more than the temperament. It's the effect of the equal-beating 12ths and 15ths that create this sonority between the bass and the treble.

I also think Danny Boy #2 is in EBVT... and I can mainly tell because of the octaves, as Bill points out it's immediately obvious from the movement of the octaves at the beginning. A better, and more difficult, comparison would be between an ET tuned with the same octave types as the EBVT!
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#1452267 - 06/07/10 08:49 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Phil D]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1651
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Not a Mongoose
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
pipe organ effect in just intonation,...
It seems much less rich than with EBVT
Kees


Surely you mean it sounds less rich than with stretched octaves?


Argument against that is that it's just C major that gives the effect. If it was just the octaves all keys should have the effect. So I think the good M3 is also part of the mix. However I prefer not to think and try it out. Maybe tomorrow.

Kees

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#1452305 - 06/07/10 10:04 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: DoelKees]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Not a Mongoose
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
pipe organ effect in just intonation,...
It seems much less rich than with EBVT
Kees


Surely you mean it sounds less rich than with stretched octaves?


Argument against that is that it's just C major that gives the effect. If it was just the octaves all keys should have the effect. So I think the good M3 is also part of the mix. However I prefer not to think and try it out. Maybe tomorrow.

Kees


To me, the EBVT III and Just intonation sound remarkably alike and I think I know why. The Just intonation (I think, I have never tuned it) has a pure third and a pure 5th in C major. You have all the harmonics lined up in that key, so you get that effect.

The EBVT III has thirds and sixths that beat rapidly but equally, so the cancel each other out. The octaves and fifths also beat equally with each other, so they cancel each other too. It gives you the illusion of Just intonation in the key of C Major but leaves all of the other keys usable for any kind of music whereas Just intonation surely does not
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
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#1452313 - 06/07/10 10:13 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III, ET--EBVT III blind test [Re: Mark R.]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Why is it necessary to classify people so? I see a lot of "box thinking" in this thread. Words like "partisan" and the likes.

Frankly, I resent this. Can one not use a forum to learn from one another?

Last December, I actually tuned my parents' harpsichord to (a first attempt at) EBVT III. I actually e-mailed Bill with my feedback, which was NOT all negative. To wit, my parents normally use it for chorales in the closer keys, so they really liked the more harmonious major thirds. However, the more remote keys were (obviously) more colorful, which to my ear, was problematic. A flat major was one of them, but it may have been a mistake in my interpretation of Bill's tuning instructions. So to my mind, there were some positive aspects, some not-so-positive. Certainly I never condemned EBVT III outright.

But somewhere in this thread, I expressed the sentiments that I actually prefer the same type of third in all twelve keys.

And this now makes me an "ET partisan" who won't accept a challenge? And puts me in a box with all those bad ET-only-people? I was actually one of the first to take the test, and I even added a bit of self-irony, because when the results were published, it turned out I got all those answers wrong that I thought were easy!

Why is it necessary to continue with these stereotypes of "us" and "them", "friend" and "enemy" etc. etc.

As a musician interested in piano technology, I find tuning and temperaments really interesting, but I'm afraid this "camp thinking" takes out all the fun in reading these threads. It's a shame that these threads keep returning to offensive-defensive behavior, instead of focussing on the actual matter on hand, namely temperaments!


Mark,

You were never one of those I had in mind when I made that comment. I know you have an open mind. Even if in the end, you prefer ET, I am OK with that, believe me. But there are those who have made up their minds in advance and nothing would change their minds.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1452315 - 06/07/10 10:15 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III, ET--EBVT III blind test [Re: Mark R.]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.

Or is the pipe organ effect actually a result of both the EBVT III temperament AND the right amount of stretch?


Yes!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1452317 - 06/07/10 10:17 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III, ET--EBVT III blind test [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Quote:
Either way, those on the ET only list have already made up their minds. We already know what their opinion is whether we read it or not and whether they ever listen to anything or not.


I have to disagree with you a little bit on that point Bill. But, just a little bit. Although, for the most part, you are correct. Just not with me. I had made up my mind totally at one point that I hated EBVT III. But, I tried keeping an open mind to various possibilities with tuning methods, kept listening, kept trying and kept learning. I still don't have all quite yet but, will keep trying...


Jer,

You were not one of the people I had in mind when I said that either.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1452324 - 06/07/10 10:30 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: DoelKees]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Bill, GPM, from your comments it seems I nailed it.

I don't want to get my main point lost though, that this is a 100% a machine tuning, and EBVT can be machine tuned with high quality results. When tuning I just stopped the display for every note (wearing earplugs) and did not listen to anything.

After I was done I went over Bill's 21 page tuning instructions and found a few faults. Double checking with tunelab it turned out those faulty notes had drifted. When retuning them with tunelab again they were in complete accord with the EVBT instructions.

Kees


Kees,

I would like to hear some actual music played with a tunelab generated EBVT III. The pipe organ effect is only for C Major, so the stretch that Tunelab provided must have been right for that key to produce the effect.

The fact is that the EBVT III is an irregular well temperament. That means all of the 5ths are of different sizes. I specify F3-A4 as being 4:2 and A3-A4 as 6:3. C3-C4 and C4-C5 will also be 4:2 while D4-D5 will be 6:3 + when the aural directions are followed. No ETD can handle that.

That is not to say that a Tunelab generated EBVT III couldn't sound good, it just could not be the same as an aural or ETD direct interval version the way I do it.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1452328 - 06/07/10 10:40 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III, ET--EBVT III blind test [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
OK.
As I said before, there is more than one way to accomplish the same goal. Last week Friday for fun, I tuned using the EBVT III and then checked the tenor section with my RCT set in its normal mode and everything in that section was less than 1¢ off. Most of it was right around 1/2¢ off or less or dead on with my RCT. So, either I tuned EBVT incorrectly, or I tuned it correctly, I'm not sure which being an amateur at this new tuning...

Any Thoughts?



Jer,

If you tune a piano in the EBVT right at A-440 and there is an electronic keyboard near and its pitch is right at A-440, play both instruments from C3-C5 together as unisons. You will hear that many notes are dead on and the most difference there will be is just a slight wave between the two.

When people talk about the compatibility of the piano tuned in the EBVT III with other instruments, particularly fixed pitched instruments, what I tell them is that the difference is internal to the piano itself. The piano is more in tune with itself and therefore it is compatible with all other instruments or voices.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1452337 - 06/07/10 10:56 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1651
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Bill:

It's not generated by tunelab, it's generated by me with my own software. Tunelab doesn't do anything except measure how close a pitch is to where I tell it that it should be. And I tell it to be where you say it should be. For example in the bass you stated that 5ths octaves, octaves and 5hs, and double octave all should sound good. So I just compute the four locations dictated by those four criteria and place the note in the center. Mindless octaves are easy, the can be computed precisely.

If you want to hear it you should send me some tunelab inharmonicity data taken from a particular piano, and I can generate a tunelab file which, when loaded, executes my instructions. Then tune electronically and evaluate the results. Or tune aurally and see if my pitches agree with yours. Several people have done so already, but no results are in yet.

If GPM sends me his IH data I can at least compare the output of my program against your aural tuning.

I don't know how well the results will be, but I'm curious to find out.

Kees

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