Folks,

By way of reminder, I am a non-tuner and an intermediate pianist with a somewhat undeveloped ear who just took delivery on a new Estonia L190. It is, as expected, gradually dropping out of tune.

I have found a technician/tuner who by reputation is one of the best available in my area and who does historical temperments as well as ET. The soonest we could book him is April 10.

Of course, in addition to the questions I have once he has access to the instrument, I intend to ask him the same questions I pose here, but I would be interested in opinions from any of you professionals who care to weigh in.

The primary question I want to pose is to give him the order of preference for what my wife and I like to play and then ask him if he recommends ET or some other approach to tuning.

The order of our preference (and roughly, proportional to the time we will spend playing it) is as follows:

(1) Romantic period, especially the more manageable Chopin pieces--say 40 percent
(2) Mozart and Bach--30 percent
(3) Broadway--20 percent
(4) Ragtime--10 percent

So the questions would be:

What kind of tuning would you recommend? For each of these (as if that would be the ONLY thing played) and overall--given that distribution?

When a piano is new, is it better to have one kind of temperament as oppose to what one would want later on for one's repertoire?

Thanks for the help, not only in this but that you have given me in the past.

Russ

Russ--
I cross-posted this reply in the Pianist Corner, at your thread there, for their consideration and possible edification.

As to what your tuner/technician might recommend, go with what your ears tell you. The topic "ET vs. other historical temperaments" seems to be a rather contentious one in the tuners' forum! Take the long view-- Why not try it one way, then, at the next tuning, try it another? After all, it's only money, and think how much you'll learn!

Dive in to the thread titled "My Piano In EBVT III" by Grandpianoman in the Piano Tuners' forum. That could help you with your decision. Grandpianoman posted some piano roll recordings of the temperament called "EBVT III" (Equal Beating Victorian Temperament) on his 1925 Mason & Hamlin 7 ft RBB. (I don't know what "RBB" means, but his piano sounds great!)

You might also want to try the thread "What is Reverse Well?" by Bill Bremmer, currently on page 2 in the Piano Tuners' forum.

In January, Mr. Bremmer tuned my 1940 Lester spinnet to EBVT III, making it sound better than it ever had. It is crisp, clean, and calm. I play some Bach, Handel, Scarlatti, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Scriabin, Kabalevsky, and an occasional Rag and it all sounds great (the piano, not necessarily the playing! ). If you want to hear EBVT III on a little Lester, here's

Kabalevsky Op.14 No.5

I posted some others in the Members Recordings section of the Pianist Corner forum, also in EVBT III. Look for "by Cinnamonbear." If you listen to my recordings, remember, it's a little spinnet. It doesn't have the same resonance and color that a grand, or even a nice upright, does. Also, the bass is very tricky to tune precisely, having to do with a property of the strings called "aspect ratio." (This is a spinnet fact, not a cop out.) Grandpianoman's recordings really do the temperament justice! Listen to them ! For starters, listen to this!

Il Postino

OMG! What do YOUR ears tell YOU?

Please let us know how this "plays out"! What will you decide???!!! [Cue cliffhanger music here.]

This is new to me. Can you explain or direct me to a thread about this "aspect ratio"?

Russ,

In an attempt to keep this thread on track, for a new instrument that will have to be tuned numerous times in the following 6-12 months, why not ask the tuner for a different temperament each time? While the instrument is acclimatizing to your home and going out of tune anyways, why not experiment a little?

Rather than have members here tell you what to hear on your own piano you could make the decision amongst the players in your residence. Chart it on a graph and see the results.

Jeff, I'd presume CB is simply referring to string thickness as a fraction of its (speaking) length?

A small upright at 40” high, would not be an instrument that would tune well in any conditions, regardless of the aspect ratio, or whatever this might mean.

As far as these instruments being tricky to tune, I guess it would depend entirely upon how much experience a person has; how much talent a person has for making the poor tones disappear, and the good sounds coming forward, if there are any.

Generally speaking these instruments do not tune well at all.

Back to the original topic maybe?

Thanks, Dan. Excellent suggestion. I will discuss this with my technician when he arrives. One suggestion (excellent in my non-expert opinion, and one I had never thought of) on the other forum was to tune slightly flat so the instrument will stay in tune longer. I would assume this would be due to less string tension. However, my thinking is that since I want the piano to "settle down" as soon as possible, it would be more advantageous to keep the strings stretched tighter for two reasons: (1) to stretch them out sooner and (2) I would assume the piano was designed for a certain string tension and will (at least theoretically) sound better at that tension.

So from the answers I have received, I think my M.O. (pending advice from my tuner) will be to go with ET for the first couple of tunings, and then if and only if, it sounds as though there is some reason to do so--experiment a little. Good idea--since my wife has a much better ear and hearing than I do.

And CinnamonBear--I replied to your very helpful post on the Pianist thread which I will probably leave alone now so as not to have multiple threads going--and I suspect from the replies I have received--I have my answer--and direction.

Russ

Regarding the thought of tuning lower I was going to suggest tune higher because this will set the strings, sounding board and other moving components more rapidly.
This way you can get through the break-in period quicker.As the instrument acclimatizes to your home it will drop in pitch on its own.( winter heating)
Have fun with the new instrument.Estonia is a good one for choice.
Regarding tuning, yes I agree. Start with the standard ET and then abstract, to have some fun with it.

Thanks, Dan. Right now, I know just enough to be dangerous. If I get any smarter, I am going to join the conversations between Bill and Kamin. My position will be that I feel very strongly both ways!

Russ:

My advice is to find a tuner that you trust. That is more important than the temperament selection.

Perfect Russ,

If you feel strongly both ways that is perfect for this place. I wouldn’t join Bill and Isaac, you can start your own thread and argue and discuss it with yourself! It is important to have fun with it!

BUT that might give you a belly ache. In that case here is a remedy for you.

From the 1971 BBC special...... you can hum this all day long like I have to now....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbgv8PkO9eo&feature=related

Jeff: I agree, and my intent on this thread was mainly to educate myself a little better on the issues. The technician I have engaged has many years of experience, comes highly recommended from two sources, and is in charge of tuning for one of the largest universities in the United States. Also, he couldn't fit me in until mid-April--and to me that means he must be doing something right!

Dan: I have participated in quite a few forum situations related to topics I enjoy (hunting, fishing, canoe racing, and others) and what is so incredible is that you meet the very best in the world at what they do. And I have found in all of those electronic "venues" that people who are great at what they do--feel more passionately about it than others could possibly feel--and you have to respect them for that. Of course, I also find that their passion for their fields sometimes outweighs their perceived need to be civil with one another. Complicate that with the flat aspect of internet communication, and you can stir up really uncivil arguments.

I stay out of those completely in situations (such as this board) where I am not even slightly competent to contribute--but I have to admit I have been a real rascal in some others. I once did exactly what you suggest. I assumed two user names from different IP addresses and then set up a vicious argument with myself. Then, when people I knew weighed in, I would go into attack mode. Finally, I had both "characters" reverse positions 180 degrees, and argue that for a couple of rounds--then agree with each other and attack their former supporters.

Ah me.

Russ

Russ:

Thanks for letting us know that you do the sock puppet thing. I will keep your willingness to deceive in mind.

Mark and Jeff--That's it. And as I understand it, this was not done very carefully for spinets in 1940 (or practically at any other time). If I understand what people are telling me, along with my recent experience with a Charles Walter console piano at the store, it IS possible to get very rich tones from a small vertical by carefully paying attention to how the string is made to fit the piano. It has something to do with the choice of materials, and how it's wound and weighted in relation to the exact length of the string in its place on an individual piano. I can get no more technical than that, but am considering whether or not to soup up my Lester. Foolishness to some, worthwhile tinkering to me, perhaps. I first came across the notion reading William Braid White, Piano Tuning and Allied Arts, 5th edition (1946), pp. 146-149 and subsequently read or heard it referred to as "aspect ratio." My apologies if I threw a monkey wrench around. Like Russ, I know just enough to be dangerous, hopefully only to myself and my $300 piano.

Russ--Thanks for the note about the other thread. Best wishes!--Cinnamonbear

Maybe there's no harm in going back and forth between tuning types in a new piano that's still stabilizing. I'd be nervous about trying it on my own new piano; maybe I'm just reactionary. You would have months in between the different tunings, so it might be hard to remember which one you liked best.

One interesting feature of some digital keyboards is the ability to switch back and forth between temperament types, so you can hear the difference immediately. None that I've tried so far has an action or sound anything like a real piano, so that's a downside (I'm looking for one as a second instrument now; largely with disappointing results). And, I've never heard this feature with my own ears, so I can't say how truly helpful it might be to you. Anyway, it's a thought; maybe as an alternative.

Maybe not.

Jeff:

"You would have months in between the different tunings, so it might be hard to remember which one you liked best."

Good point, especially if your ear is not really well trained. Someone like Mozart or Gould (wouldn't Glenn have loved that comparison! ) could probably remember every slight nuance.

Russ

Hmmm...

Has any one ever seen Jeff Clef, Jake Jackson and Russ Roberts in the same room?

Jeff D.: I would never try to get away with that here--pianists as a group are much smarter than the good old boys with whom I hang out on the fishing, hunting, and canoe-racing forums. (And I will tell them that to their knuckle-dragging, slack-jawed faces.)

Russ

And I should believe you because of flattery?

Thank you, Dan for making that suggestion. It was fair and objective of you to do that and I appreciate that.

I am not out to promote the EBVT or EBVT III as much as I am to promote the idea of giving other tuning styles than that which is considered standard a chance. You will note that I am not selling software or Electronic Tuning Devices (ETD). The information on my website for tuning both ET and the Well Temperaments I have developed is free for anyone to download and use for their own benefit, whatever that may be.

To the Original Poster, I am glad that first of all, you have a fine new piano. The Estonia was an excellent choice. I take care of several of them regularly. It was an superb value for the dollar spent.

The whole idea of using a non-equal temperament is to restore the character of the key signature to all music that is lost in ET. Some proponents of ET will argue that point. As I have understood the issues, there are some people who have become so accustomed to the sound that ET provides that any other style of temperament produces an unsatisfactory sound.

Within that group of people, the only remaining issue is how much to stretch or not stretch the octaves. This may be an issue that you do not understand well. It all has to do with the inherent problem of inharmonicity which all pianos have. If you are unfamiliar with that term, look it up on Wikipedia. You will also find other useful information about tuning styles on Wikipedia.

Piano technicians often hold very strong opinions about what they do and I certainly represent a particular opinion about tuning. It doesn't mean, however that I am exclusively right and those who have opinions that clash with mine are wrong or vice-versa. One thing I recognized very long ago was that opposing opinions can have their own validity depending upon the context.

For example, I want to hear the distinction from one key signature to the other. Others do not want to hear such contrasts. I find historical and musical precedent to validate my opinions. Others find current musical taste and contemporary common practice to validate theirs.

It is your piano and you have the right to have it sound the way it is most musically appealing to you. From what you have said are your musical choices, if I were your piano technician, I would tune the piano in the original EBVT or the 1/7 Comma Meantone that Peter Serkin uses (see the "My Piano in the EBVT III" thread for discussion and information on that temperament, including comments from Mr. Serkin, himself).

On the other hand, it is possible that you prefer strictly ET. There are some people who firmly insist upon it. Piano technicians often fit into that group because they view ET as the ultimate perfection and the ultimate solution to the problem of how to temper the scale. Piano technicians are often perfectionists in what they do. They believe in what they do and strive to maintain a high level of consistency in what they do. Therefore, to the majority of piano technicians, ET is the one and only best way to tune the piano.

You can, or maybe already have read the back and forth comments about this. Please make your own decision, however. It is good that you have found a technician that is versatile. Can you find out any more about what he does? Is he an aural only tuner or does he use an ETD? Does he provide a list of choices of temperament? If so, can you list them here?

Go ahead and listen to sound files that have been posted on various threads of both ET and non-ET. You may, in fact, not recognize much distinction. Or, you may find any unequal temperament to be distasteful. Most any contemporary and commercially available recording of piano music will be in ET but there are rare exceptions. You can hear pianos tuned the way Peter Serkin prefers here: http://www.farleyspianos.com/pages/gallery.html

When I gave that link to a piano technician from France, he found all of the examples to be completely distasteful and very unsatisfactory. He also did mostly with recent sound files of my EBVT III although he did find some appeal in certain examples. Ask yourself what your gut reaction is.

Compare the examples of ET and non-ET for what they do for you emotionally. Does the dark and disturbing sound of the theme from Schindler's list evoke the horror of the Holocaust for example? Does Rhapsody in Blue have the "blue notes" that you expect to hear from Jazz and Blues from NYC nightclubs of the 1920's or do those contrasts simply upset you?

All music does have an emotional quality. There are happy sounds, there are frantic sounds, there are melancholic sounds and there are frightening, dark and disturbing sounds. If you want to clearly experience these emotions, you will want a non-ET that will give them to you. If you prefer a smoother road, a more consistent sound from the piano, you will want ET.

Bill,

I want to thank you for your long and thoughtful answer. I have indeed read the back and forth, and as a non-professional, understand just enough to be dangerous. From what I can tell our technician is very familiar with various historical temperaments and probably sooner or later, I will want to try a couple out. I will print out your and other responses to discuss with him in April.

But here is what I suspect--I think I will find that the only real thing I am going to be able to discern with my ear and my hearing is when the unisons are out of sync with each other. I can definitely hear that (although probably not as soon as a professional or a musician with a better ear.) Over and above that--the temperaments and stretches--I'm very uncertain whether I will be competent to make a judgment. But it would be fun to see!

Russ