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#1395502 - 03/14/10 12:41 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Nick Mauel]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Nick Mauel
Thanks Bill, and Patrick, for explaining in terms I understand how to go about this tuning. I glanced the instructions and it seems the simple adjustments I asked for are adequately explained, except that I don't know what a 6:3 octave is, but it does not seem that the understanding of it is crucial since it is at the beginning of the sequence, or is it? I'm guessing it's just a pretty normal octave.

I can't wait to try this, maybe even tomorrow.

Thanks, Bill for all your explanations.


Nick, don't worry about the 6:3 octave, you will tune it naturally as you work on the octaves above the temperament. Just use A3 as it is from where you tuned it in ET. I will send you the same detailed instructions I sent to Patrick a while back. These need to be posted on my website but I have not yet taken the time to carefully edited them for any typos, etc.

It would be great if you are able to understand and follow the instructions, like the results and can post a recording!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1395506 - 03/14/10 01:02 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
GP, that is the cleanest, most beautiful sounding Claire de Lune I have ever heard! I have been quite busy lately and fallen behind on private e-mail to you but I will try to get to those. Could you please post the sound file that another interested party made and that I forwarded to you?
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1395518 - 03/14/10 01:21 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
[/quote]

These need to be posted on my website but I have not yet taken the time to carefully edited them for any typos, etc.

[/quote]

Why not? All of your postings here have always been perfectly edited. It seems like it would be a good idea to have them posted on your website.

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#1395519 - 03/14/10 01:25 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

Hello Patrick,

I loved the sound file you posted and appreciated the comments from other people. I would be extremely interested to hear that Schubert Impromptu #4 as you have learned to play it first in ET, then in the EBVT III on the same piano. Record it first in ET, save the file, then tune that same piano in the EBVT III and practice the piece again, playing it however differently you may interpret it in the EBVT III and record that. Your comments about both experiences will be well appreciated.

One day, I would like to hear it again in the 1/7 Comma Meantone as I first did in 1995. I wonder how Peter Serkin would interpret that piece as opposed to all the lifeless recordings of it I have heard on You Tube?


Hi Bill,

it's quite possible that I'll take you up on this challenge. I know the piece, but it's nowhere close to 'under my fingers' as it's one of the ones I've never studied deliberately.

Needless to say, it would need some practicing. It's not overly difficult, but it needs to be under control if there is going to be any benefit from it. (Makes me think of the famous quote by Rachmaninoff: "without technique, there can be no interpretation" :-D )

Anyways, I'll take it up for practicing, and I will also check with my classical collegues at the conservatory, maybe some of them has it in their repertoire.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1395520 - 03/14/10 01:28 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: JBE]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thanks, Byron, I did in fact use that material for an article on octave tuning which is now on my website and will be published in the April issue of the PTG Journal. The document is quite long and it contains comments that were specific for Patrick that I need to change for public consumption. I just need to find the time to go through it, format it properly and send it to my webmaster. I am enjoying listening to GP's recordings right now!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1395567 - 03/14/10 02:30 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: pppat]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thanks Patrick, as you study it, I hope you find in it what I did. Since it is a composition from the Romantic era, there is a lot of freedom to interpret tempo and dynamics. I wish there were some way that I could recover the recording I have somewhere on a cassette tape and make it available here. I still remember the way it sounded 15 years ago, however. No interpretation of it that I have ever heard since has come even close.

Here is a link to Arthur Rubinstein playing it. It is better than another I had seen that I thought was really lifeless. Now, he is a great master of the piano and the piano is tuned as we would expected it to be. However, Rubinstein's interpretation can't hold a candle to the way that an 18 year old student interpreted it 15 years ago on a Baldwin 9 foot tuned in the 1/7 comma meantone.

He took the passages in the Major key of A-flat, started with a pleasant sounding mood but soon, that mood became frenzied, nervous and breathless, swirling with emotion until it built to an incredible climax and suddenly crashed. After the crash, the mood was brooding and painful but slowly recovered until it built again to what it had been before.

It is this kind of extreme emotion that can be found, recovered and expressed again in music through the use of non-equal temperaments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcR3tAeTwmE

Consider what Jean-Phillipe Rameau had to say about this:

"We receive different impressions from intervals, in proportion to the amount of alteration. For example, the Major third which moves us naturally to joy, as we know from experience, impresses upon us ideas even of fury when it is too large. The minor third which brings us naturally to sweetness and tenderness, saddens us when it is too small...Knowledgeable musicians know how to exploit these different effects of the intervals, and [they] value the alteration which one might [otherwise] condemn, because of the expression they draw therefrom."

The above quote was found in a 2001 doctoral dissertation by Dr. Willis G. Miller, "The Effects of Non-Equal Temperament on Chopin's Mazurkas"

The complete text can be viewed here: http://www.millersrus.com/dissertation/#
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1395726 - 03/14/10 06:29 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
alfredo capurso Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1076
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hello.

Sorry GP, I'd never mix other issues with your fresh enthusiasm, but this is a due action.

I don't know how many of you have gone and read the dissertation linked above.

Anyway, in paragraph n.7 you read (about unequal temperaments): "The degree of color variance, then, is entirely manipulative."

In paragraph n.9 you read: "Ozanam theories on key characteristics are echoed in Jean Phillipe Rameau's (Digione, 1683 – Paris, 1764) first publications..." (1722).

In paragraph n.12 you read: "Eleven years after the publication...Rameau became infatuated with the concept of Equal Temperament and completely dismissed the existence of key-characteristics."

Now, I would find that partial information is "manipulative", like we read about UTs, and that would be despicable.

Any explaination?

a.c.
_________________________
alfredo

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#1395748 - 03/14/10 07:07 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: alfredo capurso]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2363
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Bill asked me to post this from one of his customers who is liking EBVT III. Ralph, that sounds wonderful, and nice playing! Bach 3-part 2-channel #2 http://www.box.net/shared/yvq9nzknu8

Bill, glad you enjoyed the Clair de Lune, lovely sound in EBVT III, and such beautiful music. I noticed that after this 4th tuning, that pesky treble section is not going flat as much. smile

LOL...I keep thinking of things to say after I post...it's such a pleasure Bill, to re-discover all this music on my piano. It's literally like I am hearing if for the first time.

I have just made some recordings last night of several Ampico pop rolls of the 1920's and 30's that are some of my favorites....I will post them tonight. I have heard these rolls many times, and I must say, they sound so much better in EBVT III...harmonies/resonances that just grab my attention, which makes them even more fun to listen to....:)



Edited by grandpianoman (03/14/10 07:18 PM)

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#1395754 - 03/14/10 07:17 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Yes, Alfredo, it means that he changed his mind about what he was interested in. The temperament he used was a modified meantone and it was VERY unequal and that was typical of his time. Just like Bach, he decided at one point that he wanted a temperament that was more accessible to all keys. The theory of ET had always been there, since the time of Pythagoras and even before that among the ancient Chinese way before the common era.

But did you also read that just because he thought about ET did not mean he could tune it and he could not. Rameau was known for many temperaments, including some quasi ETs but not ET itself. He did not discover a way to tune ET accurately. It would be quite highly manipulative in my view, to take that one phrase that you found to suggest that 11 years after he wrote about the effects of interval sizes on emotions, he took a tranquilizer and tuned his pianos in ET after that.

What I was actually looking for was a list of descriptions of the effects of various key signatures that composers themselves wrote. They are in Owen Jorgensen's publications somewhere but I thought I might find them on the web and they may be but I cam across that phrase by Rameau.

It described quite well what I was referring to in the interpretation of the Schubert Impromptu. You can hear Rubinstein play it and if you like that, fine but I for one, have heard it performed in an amazing way that I will never forget. I would like for Patrick (who just happens to be a piano performance professor) to learn the piece and he can then show us how a non-ET can add to the emotions in the piece which are clearly intended. The fact that Rameau later attempted to explore ET was not pertinent although I did consider adding that I thought his change of mind was an interesting twist. That interesting twist does not change the fact that interval sizes do affect the emotions.

Patrick may also be able to come up with some other examples as he learns to play according to temperament and show us how ET affects his mood in one way but the EBVT affects it differently. The player piano cannot do that. Some of the darker moods of the Fauré nocturne in E-flat minor, Chopin in a dark mood, such as the funeral march, Rachmaninoff in his darkest moods, etc...

I recall at the 1998 event, the pianist played that Chopin funeral march in the original EBVT. The audience was impressed by the intensity of sadness there was in the EBVT and the lack of it when she played it in ET. The Schubert piece I would like to hear is interesting because it goes from one end of the spectrum to the other and back again, all in one piece.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1395757 - 03/14/10 07:21 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: grandpianoman
Bill asked me to post this from one of his customers who is liking EBVT III. Ralph, that sounds wonderful, and nice playing! Bach 3-part 2-channel #2 http://www.box.net/shared/yvq9nzknu8

Bill, glad you enjoyed the Clair de Lune, lovely sound in EBVT III, and such beautiful music. I noticed that after this 4th tuning, that pesky treble section is not going flat as much. smile

I have just made some recordings last night of several Ampico pop rolls of the 1920's and 30's that are some of my favorites....I will post them tonight. I have heard these rolls many times, and I must say, they sound so much better in EBVT III...harmonies/resonances that just grab my attention, which makes them even more fun to listen to....:)



Thanks a lot, GP, I have enjoyed every single one of your posts so far! Ralph is not one of my customers. He read about the EBVT on my website and learned to tune it. He did not know how to post the recording however and neither do I, so I asked you to help with that. Thanks for the accommodation!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1395793 - 03/14/10 08:17 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 790
Loc: Sarasota and Naples, FL
I just tried the EBVT III and it was EASY!

I just followed Bill's instructions. I thought being an aural tuner would make it hard for me. Is it possible that exactly the opposite is true?

I thought it would be more radical than it is. It is actually a lot like the way I tune already, in that I favor nice clean 5ths over octaves anyway - always have.

As far as the major thirds in the temperament, it actually sounds like a lot of other tuner's tuning! Those who primarily use 4ths and 5ths.

I have always strived for evenness in my tuning, but these variations seem to actually open things up a bit more, not so 'contained'. And the piano sounds calmer which is actually pleasing.

After the temperament octave, I just did what I like anyways and tuned 5ths pure. The stretch seems to be very good and musical. It occured to me while tuning the octaves in the treble that what I have used previously might be limiting my stretch because if you stretch too much the 5ths get noisy on the expanded side, does this make sense?

As regards the bass, it seems also stretched to the down side a little more than with ET and this is where you might be able to hear more variances over ET because you tend to hear the rapidly beating intervals more in the bass anyways. They are less pronounced, but the piano still has some vibrato effect and it gives the piano a lot cleaner sound.

Bill, do you think I did it right? It was fast and easy for me. I kind of like not messing around with all those RBIs.
_________________________
Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist

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#1395800 - 03/14/10 08:32 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Nick Mauel]
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 790
Loc: Sarasota and Naples, FL
I have just gone over the piano again (playing it) and I hear nothing inconsistent or objectionable. I didn't think a non ET would be so even.

I can see why/how Bill could make this the only way he tunes.
_________________________
Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist

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#1395863 - 03/14/10 10:02 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Nick Mauel]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
It sounds like you nailed it, Nick! Past the first 4 RBIs that I tune, I never listen to another one after that. It's all 4ths, 5ths and octaves. It is a very easy and simple way to tune a piano and it can be remarkably consistent in spite of how little cross checking there is. It does resemble to a large degree what a crude 4ths & 5ths tuner would do but instead of the inequality producing random effects or worse yet, reverse well, the effects of well temperament are there.

We would all be interested to hear some recordings. you are in a unique position to find out how the musicians who visit your showroom react and also if the way you make the pianos sound actually increases your sales. I believe it can based on the experience of one of my colleagues here in Madison. He refuses to ever tune a piano in ET. He says he does not want his pianos to sound like his competition's pianos. Until a few years ago, there were four piano dealers in Madison but now it is down to two but his sales and business remain very strong.

The first time you ask one of your musician friends to try a piano tuned this way, I would suggest not revealing what you have done differently. Just get the reaction without introducing any influences which may affect perception. Certainly, for example, if you said outright, "I tuned this piano in an unequal temperament", it would influence the perception. What you want is an honest, unbiased reaction. If you can, you could have two of the same make and model of piano, one tuned in ET as you always have and the other tuned in the EBVT. Ask the pianist to try both and tell you which he/she likes best and take note of descriptive terms.

Rather than me telling you what to expect which I believe would be all positive, I would rather you tell us what happens. You have seen all the warnings and read all of the negative comments. Let's just find out how musicians and the public who buys your pianos and uses your services reacts. I know that you are also a concert technician. The first thing that many people would tell you is not to dare to try it. I would suggest finding out how your clients perceive what you do and get to the point where you are totally confident with it. I have used the EBVT for all concert tunings since I developed it with the exception of the Beethoven Emperor Concerto for which I use the Vallotti temperament. Never once have I had an artist ask me to change the temperament. I always get nice compliments.

I sincerely hope that you have discovered something new that you can put to use to your own benefit and the benefit of the music that comes from all of the pianos you tune.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1395877 - 03/14/10 10:11 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1300
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
GP,

Thanks very much for posting the recording of the Bach 3 part invention #2. Now that I listen to it again I wish I had hit more of the correct notes. If you get a chance, PM me with instructions on how to post a sound file.

I have really enjoyed Bill's EVBT and EVBT III. I've always thought of it as "blooming" the piano. The sound opens up and blooms like a church organ. It's a great temperament. Thanks Bill.
_________________________
Do or do not. There is no try.

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#1395887 - 03/14/10 10:20 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Ralph]
Andrew Ranger Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 60
Loc: Missoula Montana
I just have to chime in here. I tuned my piano with EBVT III and it sounds wonderful! It has a softer more calm sound to it. I didn't think I'd notice much difference but I did. It sounds very musical to me, not offensive at all.

Andrew
_________________________
Andrew Ranger
Piano Technician

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#1395902 - 03/14/10 10:28 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Andrew Ranger Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 60
Loc: Missoula Montana
Grandpianoman, I just want to say that I like the sound of your latest recordings alot better, very enjoyable!

Andrew
_________________________
Andrew Ranger
Piano Technician

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#1396080 - 03/15/10 05:51 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2043
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Dear Bill,

Many thanks for your description of how a fourths-and-fifths tuning can easily slip into reverse-well. To get a feeling of how "bad" things can become, I have a question. Here's what you wrote:

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
The A3 and A4 were right on pitch. What happens is the tuner begins tuning 4ths & 5ths from A3. The first interval tuned is A3-E4 and it is tuned too close to pure. That means A4 is too sharp.


I don't quite understand this, by the way, because you just wrote that A4 was right on pitch. But that's just an aside. You continue:

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Then D4 is tuned too close to pure, so it is too flat. Then G3 is tuned from D4 too close to pure so it is too flat. Then C4 is tuned from G3 too close to pure, so C4 is too flat. C4 is too flat and E4 is too sharp, therefore, the C4-E4 M3 ends up being 20 or more cents wide (instead of the 14 cents it should be).


By way of comparison: if I understand you correctly, the C4-E4 M3 in EBVT III is about 10 cents wide (please correct me if I understood this wrongly!) Could you give me an indication of the width (in cents) of the neighbouring M3s (B3-D#4 and C#4-F4), both of which are five positions removed on the circle of fifths, and would therefore both be classified as "lively" or "colourful" keys - by how many cents are they wide in EBVT III?

I'm just trying to get an impression of how unequal the EBVT III really is.

Many thanks!


Edited by Mark R. (03/15/10 05:56 AM)
Edit Reason: corrected bps to cents in various places
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1396142 - 03/15/10 08:51 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Mark R.]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Mark, sorry, in the first quote, it should have said E4 is too sharp.

For a good visual representation of the EBVT III, see the color graph here:

http://www.billbremmer.com/ebvt/ebvt_iii.jpg

The graph shows all interval sizes in both cents and beat rates.

Also, Rafael from Mexico City calculated the beat rate differences for me as they would be if you played the notes unison for unison with a keyboard tuned in ET. When I posted the information, Tooner attacked it and called it misleading and warned against drawing any conclusions from it.

F3 0.2 bps
F#3 0.0 bps
G3 0.4 bps
G#3 0.1 bps
A3 0.0 bps
A#3 0.4 bps
B3 0.0 bps
C4 0.6 bps
C#4 -0.2 bps
D4 0.1 bps
D#4 0.3 bps
E4 -0.1 bps
F4 0.4 bps
F#4 -0.1 bps
G4 0.7 bps
G#4 0.2 bps
A4 0.0 bps

What I think the above figures show is how the EBVT III is compatible with other fix pitched instruments tuned in ET. These figures confirmed what I already knew from experience. The actual difference between ET and the EBVT III is actually an extremely small one. There is a purpose and an effect from that difference, however an that is the reason why I use the EBVT III and have used it year after year on thousands upon thousands of piano tunings without a single complaint from any people for whom I have worked. You must draw your own conclusions.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1396147 - 03/15/10 09:07 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
It would not be as misleading if the figures were listed as hz instead of bps. If hz was used, it would be understood that the difference is between the fundamental of two pitches with the same note name. bps is generally used when referring to nearly coincident partials of two different notes.

A simular list of "bps" for any non-ET including the so-called "reverse well" could also lead someone to believe that the difference in the beat rate of RBIs would hardly be noticeable.

But even when tuning or playing unisons, the matching of upper partials still comes into play. A 0.4 hz difference in fundamentals will produce 1.6 bps on the fourth partial.

The real problem is in staddling the fence. If EBVT III is different than ET and that is what is preferred, fine. But if it is hardly noticeable from ET, then what's the difference, and why bother? We better get used to people talking out of both sides of their mouth. I't a mid-term election year.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1396166 - 03/15/10 09:36 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
That zone, the one in which on one hand, doesn't matter but at the same time results in a positive difference is where I have explored now for over 20 years. The usual perception is that any difference at all from ET would be unacceptable. But then, there is the "just get it close" mentality. That would work too. What can be done within that range that really does make the music come alive? Well tempering is the answer. I'm not the only technician who has done it.

Why is straddling the fence a problem? If the temperament were unequal enough to really be clearly noticeable, it would be unacceptable to nearly everyone. It seems to me that GP is glad that he "bothered". Now, Nick M. who was quite skeptical has found that not only does he like the sound but the whole idea is far easier to execute than ET. It is therefore, less of a "bother", an example of how to get better results with far less effort.

Can you argue with Owen Jorgensen's comment which the graph maker, Jason Kanter chose to post at the top of his graph? "For what they accomplish, your temperaments are remarkably easy to tune. They will prove to be very valuable for that reason". What has been accomplished has been very valuable to me and my customers. Now, other technicians are realizing the value as well. Jorgensen's prediction was correct.

So, just who is talking out of both both sides of his mouth here? At the same time, the EBVT III is unacceptable but also not enough difference to really matter. Which is it?
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1396180 - 03/15/10 10:06 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
The problem with straddling a fence is that you get splinters in inconvenient places. Another way to put it is that if you don’t stand for something, you will fall for anything. And I am not talking about the art of compromise. I am talking about making something seem one way for one situation and another way for a different situation

But you bring up a point that I have been toying with. All temperaments are discussed in relation to ET. There can be solid definitions of Just and Meantone temperaments, but there is no such thing as THE Well temperament. And I see it as admirable for a person to say that they like or dislike a temperament on its own merits. But to base a preference on how far, without being too far, it is from ET seems wishy-washy to me. And to choose a temperament because it is easy to tune seems just plain lazy.

If I had a second piano to goof around with, I would try Wendell’s Well of 2002 (WW2?). It seems very circular and may be more understandable to my musical ear.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1396226 - 03/15/10 10:56 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: UnrightTooner]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2043
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
My question about the three consecutive M3s (B3-D#4, C4-E4 and C#4-F4) was simply aimed at what is still an acceptably wide M3. If, for example, the B3-D#4 M3 in Bill's EBVT III were 20 cents wide, what makes it more acceptable than a 20 cents wide C4-E4 M3 in a reverse well? Hence, I was hoping for a comparison in cents terms.

EDIT follows:

OK, so Bill has posted the widths of his M3s in cents. The C#4-F M3 is about 17 cents wide. So, if a reverse-well C4-E4 M3 was 17 cents wide, I'm just wondering what makes the C#-F 17 cents M3 more acceptable than the C-E 17 cents M3.

Both deviate the same amount from ET.


Edited by Mark R. (03/15/10 11:04 AM)
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1396255 - 03/15/10 11:34 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
.....

So, just who is talking out of both both sides of his mouth here? At the same time, the EBVT III is unacceptable but also not enough difference to really matter. Which is it?


So, you are trying to make it appear that I am talking out of both sides of my mouth by putting words in my mouth??? OUTRAGEOUS!!!

I merely said that it sounds wrong to me. I really cannot say anything else about what I hear. However, there is usually much to say about how you say things, Bill.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1396312 - 03/15/10 01:26 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: UnrightTooner]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Chicagoland
At this point, I would hesitate to use any of the published numbers to attempt to replicate or analyze the EBVT III... While the graphs are pretty and the information is plentiful, it doesn't seem to match the tuning record posted.

I'm working on a translation for ETD users - I think the best that can be done is a single octave in the middle, then use the direct tuning via matching partials that Bill writes about.

I'm going to go over the aural directions some more and place it on a few varied pianos before coming back with any numbers.

(All this has to do with the way the machines calculate other tunings via ET.)

Ron Koval
chicagoland
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1396335 - 03/15/10 01:54 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: RonTuner]
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 790
Loc: Sarasota and Naples, FL
I have to say that the day after tuning my piano aurally according to Bill's instructions, that I am a little bit dumbfounded.

It's funny because I feel like I don't know what I did, but it sounds fantastic, such a clean and pure sound. It's outside the 'box' I have always used, but nothing radical.

It's as if its not so exacting but yet it is. Practicing ET aurally for 25 years makes this seem a bit strange but the end result is good and I think more aural tuners who also play piano should try it and see what they think.

I am going to try and make a recording.
_________________________
Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist

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#1396341 - 03/15/10 02:01 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Mark, the difference between Well Temperament and Reverse Well is that the relatively wide or relatively narrow intervals are in the correct place according to the cycle of 5ths (key signature). What do you expect to hear in terms of color from a particular key signature? That aspect is completely negated and neutralized by ET. Tooner says that any particular color in any key signature sounds wrong to him. He wants every key signature to sound the same. If during any piece of music, there is a modulation, there should be no change in mood or emotion from that or it will sound wrong.

What is your instinct about that? Should the key signature chords with no sharps or flats sound identical with those of six sharps or flats? If so, why not make a piano with no black keys like a Cajun diatonic button accordion? They make terrific music using only the "white" keys. Why ever modulate to a distant key? Won't a related key do just as well?

If your ear could not find a problem with any of the recent postings there have been, then is there a problem?

Reverse well makes every tonal color the complete opposite of what it should be. Go to the thread on Reverse Well and play some of the links. Even if you cannot honestly say that you hear a problem, does that still mean that the EBVT III could never be right for you and only ET could be? If so, how would you know if you hired a tuner who claimed to tune ET but gave you reverse well instead?

Is the conflict you or anyone else may have only in the mind itself? How could a professional musician who earns his living by superb musical performances and other piano technicians who earn their living tuning pianos (as I do), all be wrong but one person, who is admittedly only an amateur tuner who only tunes the poorest grades of pianos, be right? I quote, "I merely said that it sounds wrong to me. I really cannot say anything else about what I hear".

Just what is "wrong" about it? Just what is "right" about no distinction in key signature? The people who cannot stand the very idea of an unequal temperament have all done the very same thing, as predictable as the sun rising and setting: they bring up the prospect of ancient temperaments that they know for sure could never work on the modern piano. "Just and Meantone temperaments". There, that's a REAL historical temperament for you! Then they may display some ancient instrument tuned that way. It is all in the attempt to demonstrate that for the modern piano, there is no other alternative but ET. Why "bother" with these "wishy-washy" temperaments when if you what you want is really unacceptable, you can go all the way and be really unacceptable?

None of what Tooner says on here ever has or ever will affect what I do as a piano technician. I've heard it all before and never changed what I do according to those remarks either. Mark, you have the choice. Go with what you ear tells you sounds good to you or go with what some people try to tell you should sound good to you.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1396345 - 03/15/10 02:06 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Nick Mauel]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Colorado
Thanks, Ron and Nick -
I had a client listen to Patrick's version of EBVT III and she next wants me to tune her piano in EBVT III once to mimic that sonic signature.

I see the aural tuning sequence for EBVT III, which seems far more simple than the Equal Tuning methods I've been practicing, but what are the checks? I am so used to progressive beat-rate checks and have been receiving good results with the final product, that I am not sure how one would check across the register with EBVT III.

TuneLab looks more appealing the more I look at the offsets for EBVTIII - I don't think I can hear +/- .63 cents...;) nor do I want to become dependent on an ETD...for some reason.

Glen
_________________________

A Bit of YouTube
PTG Associate Member

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#1396352 - 03/15/10 02:28 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Inlanding]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Bill:

There are many differences between you and me.

The biggest is that you do not acknowledge that opinions are different than facts as I do. Saying something like “I prefer chocolate ice cream.” is not the same as saying “You must not eat vanilla ices cream.” Actually, I think you understand exactly what I mean but stoop low enough to attempt to make me into a straw man for you to knock down. It is a disgusting habit.

But also you and I took very different paths in learning to tune.

I sought out an experienced tuner and took lessons until I was told that there was nothing more he could teach me. Within months I took and passed the PTG exams on the first try.

You bought a correspondence course, tuned to suit yourself, and then (I am not sure how many years later it might have been) you failed the PTG tuning exam because you were tuning at an apprentice level. Later you finally figured out how to tune ET and passed the exam.

It is very predictable that you do not like ET and I do.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1396357 - 03/15/10 02:33 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Inlanding]
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 790
Loc: Sarasota and Naples, FL
Glen,

I found it easy for aural tuners. You don't need as many checks because there is a simpler standard of priorities.

Have Bill send you his list of detailed instructions. What I did yesterday as I read his detailed list was to simply make abbreviated notes, and then I just took them over to my piano and tuned it no problem.
_________________________
Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist

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#1396380 - 03/15/10 02:56 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Inlanding]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Glen & Ron, you are both making it far more complicated than it really is. basically, Nick just "used the force" and the force being with him, he accomplished what no machine could ever do.

Ron, the reason you can't reconcile my numbers with electronic calculations is that basically, that never will happen. This is why I think, with your very analytical mind, that you would do well to experience working with PTG tuning examiners. Your area is saturated at the moment, however. Ben Gac has been amazing in his enthusiasm and learning curve. There are more examiners in your area than are needed.

Take the newest, best, most highly perfected PTG exam master tuning by the smartest, most experienced team of aural tuning magnates, compare that against any electronically generated tuning data and you will have one crate of apples and one crate of oranges. Even if you reconcile the partial selections where they are different, nothing will match except randomly.

The very finest, most experienced aural tuner's data will never match one on one with the master tuning, even when the pitch is reconciled. The electronic calculations have to do what they have to do with their hundredths of a cent calculations but really what an aural tuner does to within 1/2 a cent except possibly in the lower midrange is a close enough tolerance.

The calculated stretch that sounds good and right to the ear would never come remotely close to a calculated program for an ETD. If you have a Steinway D available, or any Steinway grand for that matter, go ahead and tune it according to the generic data that I provided but suspect especially that the wound strings may need some aural verification and correction, especially if it is a smaller grand. I don't expect that the Verituner would say that even a single note is "right".

That does not mean that one could not use the Verituner and the EBVT III correction figures to get a good tuning any more than it means that the Verituner would be inaccurate for tuning ET. It just means that the approach is different and the difference in the end results is insignificant.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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