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#1393950 - 03/11/10 07:12 PM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: Hakki]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 15661
Loc: Victoria, BC
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On average, how many times does a master music degree holder has to perform in front of a board of examiners during his/her education?
How many compulsory formal recitals should be performed to get the degree?
Let us be fair. IMO there is no comparison between a degree holder and an amateur regarding performance experience.
[...]regards,
Hakki
Are you suggesting that 1) performance experience 2) number of recitals and 3) "formal" recitals are all disqualifying factors? How many recitals? What constitutes a "formal" recital? How do you quantify "performance experience"? It sounds like another can of worms, to me. Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
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#1393953 - 03/11/10 07:15 PM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: Hakki]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2889
Loc: Florida
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On average, how many times does a master music degree holder has to perform in front of a board of examiners during his/her education? I think as often as you took exams in thermodynamics. A piano major student also has to do studio recitals regularly. IMO there is no comparison between a degree holder and an amateur regarding performance experience. I agree.
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#1394009 - 03/11/10 08:36 PM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: Hakki]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 3957
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
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On average, how many times does a master music degree holder has to perform in front of a board of examiners during his/her education?
How many compulsory formal recitals should be performed to get the degree?
Let us be fair. IMO there is no comparison between a degree holder and an amateur regarding performance experience.
What are the motivating factors leading an amateur to enter a competition?
regards,
Hakki
Hakki - At the school I attended each student pursuing a masters degree in piano performance was required to play a 20 minute jury at the end of each semester of study in addition to one final Masters recital. Since I didn't have an undergrad degree in performance, I was required to play a Senior recital as well as the Masters recital. So I ultimately played three 20 minute juries and two full recitals in order to earn the degree. That was the sum total of my solo experience by age 26. I only go into this to help you understand that things aren't always as clear cut as you may think. Obviously, my peers who had four years of jury and recital experience during their undergraduate years clearly had an advantage over me. But everyone's experience is unique - amateurs included !!!
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#1394049 - 03/11/10 09:52 PM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: LisztAddict]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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In at least one amateur competition I know, there were several (not just 1 or 2) students who were actively pursuing DMA in piano performance..... It's simpler than that. People who already had DMA's have been in the amateur competitions.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1394050 - 03/11/10 09:53 PM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: Hakki]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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Hakki -- I'm surprised you thought you could gain anything from seeing what it "says" on a music degree.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1394066 - 03/11/10 10:16 PM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: Mark_C]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
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In at least one amateur competition I know, there were several (not just 1 or 2) students who were actively pursuing DMA in piano performance..... It's simpler than that. People who already had DMA's have been in the amateur competitions. Actually, I'd think it'd be a more complex case if they already have a DMA. What if they got it 35 years ago and worked as a mechanic in the meantime, then just picked up piano again for 2 years? It's hard to define the term amateur, and as a result, people who might be considered professionals start entering the arena once the prestige gets high enough. The Olympics were originally designed for amateur athletes. That doesn't mean that we ban Sidney Crosby from competing.  But there will always be less prestigious competitions for those whose skill level is not high enough. And if your skill level is up there, then forget about where your competitors came from and enter to win.
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#1394076 - 03/11/10 10:27 PM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: Frozenicicles]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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Good point -- yes. But it seemed the others were thinking that the higher degree you are going for (or already have), the less of an "amateur" you can be. BTW.....if I stopped practicing medicine for a few years, would I then be an amateur doctor? 
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1394114 - 03/11/10 11:55 PM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: musica71]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2357
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How widespread is the practice of people mis-representing themselves to take part in amateur piano competitions? More to the point, does anyone know somebody who actually won an amateur piano competition and was not an "amateur" according to the rules of that particular competition?
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
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#1394119 - 03/12/10 12:03 AM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: jazzyprof]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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no As far as we know, it's rare that people have faked their way into amateur competitions, and non-existent that such a person has won. But I don't agree that "winning" is the criterion for this, because the mere presence of certain kinds of people can affect the atmosphere, and the approach of the judges. I'm not talking about the fact that the fakers are "sleaze," but what type of pianist they might be. The requirements aren't just to make sure that the wrong kind of person doesn't win; they're also to make the event have a certain kind of tone. The presence of "overqualified" people can affect that tone.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1394125 - 03/12/10 12:20 AM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: Mark_C]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2357
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If they were truly "overqualified" wouldn't they be walking away with all the prizes?
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
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#1394127 - 03/12/10 12:25 AM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: jazzyprof]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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If they were truly "overqualified" wouldn't they be walking away with all the prizes? I guess you have to be there. The answer is no, because overqualified (or, more correctly, wrongly qualified) doesn't necessarily mean "good." This is subtle.....IMO it's a thing of how the presence of the conservatory types affects the whole atmosphere, and the expectations of the audience and judges -- and what kinds of things they then emphasize in the judging. If I go further about this, it'll open all kinds of new cans of worms (maybe I already have) -- so I'll try to leave this part of it at that. From your post as well as others on here, it seems that many people think "winning" is the main consideration about these events, and almost the only thing that matters. Maybe for a few people it is, but not for most of us, and not for the audiences either. The main thing about the event is the event, and what it's like -- i.e. the nature of the event. The people who participate in the event determine its nature, and if you have a different basic kind of people in it, the nature becomes different.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1394140 - 03/12/10 01:09 AM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: Mark_C]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 933
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Hakki -- I'm surprised you thought you could gain anything from seeing what it "says" on a music degree. Mark, I am not trying to gain anything from there. Let me put it this way. Below is the description of amateur from websters: "2 : one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession 3 : one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science" I am simply asking why a Master degree is awarded to a person who falls into the above description? How can one identify himself/herself as an amateur after receiving the degree? How does the constitution that is granting the degree sees the receiver? Are these diplomas fake/not serious/easily attained etc...? So, I am just trying to understand what really a Master Degree diploma in piano is? regards, Hakki.
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#1394143 - 03/12/10 01:27 AM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: Hakki]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1225
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Hakki -- I'm surprised you thought you could gain anything from seeing what it "says" on a music degree. Mark, I am not trying to gain anything from there. Let me put it this way. Below is the description of amateur from websters: "2 : one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession 3 : one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science" I am simply asking why a Master degree is awarded to a person who falls into the above description? How can one identify himself/herself as an amateur after receiving the degree? How does the constitution that is granting the degree sees the receiver? Are these diplomas fake/not serious/easily attained etc...? So, I am just trying to understand what really a Master Degree diploma in piano is? regards, Hakki. Whoever has degree in certain field should be considered professional. Not making money of the degree should not be the criteria. The main problem of not allowing piano degree people to join amateur competitions is that the participation will go down dramatically. How many non piano degree adults who are into practicing piano seriously like you, Mark, me??? and not every adult is brave enough to enter piano competitions. Many do not have strong enough mental to endure the stress of piano competition...If VCOA institutes this rule, there will be only 20 people participate, instead of 75. It is very hard for non piano degree adult to even reach final stage...Look at the 2007 final, most of the fianlists have piano degree. I believe the winner has master degree in piano performance, and then became a MD.
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#1394146 - 03/12/10 01:29 AM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: Hakki]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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So, I am just trying to understand what really a Master Degree diploma in piano is? There's no mystery. And even if there were, you wouldn't be able to tell anything from what it says on the diploma. In fact, this whole thing about what it says on a diploma is a new one on me. The text on diplomas is just formal stuff that doesn't mean anything about anything. Kind of like Oscar acceptance speeches.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1394152 - 03/12/10 01:45 AM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: Mark_C]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 933
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From what I have read so far I understand that there are significant differences between the worth of the diplomas, depending on from which conservatory it has been awarded.
So it is hard for the competition organizers to differentiate between applicants, and say that, one is qualified to enter whereas the other is not.
regards,
Hakki.
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#1394157 - 03/12/10 01:53 AM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: Hakki]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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Hakki, Hakki, Hakki...... All I was talking about was your wondering what it says on the diploma. You can never tell anything from that.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1394161 - 03/12/10 02:07 AM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: Mark_C]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 3957
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
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Hakki - In my humble opinion (for whatever its worth) a formal degree simply means you have been trained and have achieved a certain level of knowledge and "proficiency" in a particular field at a given point in time. What you achieve AFTER receiving the training and the degree determines whether you truly are a "professional" in that field. The competition organizers have the right to establish the criteria for their specific competition. You can decide whether you want to place yourself into that particular mix - or not. If there is a question about the "eligibility" of a given contestant, it is the responsibility of the competition organizers to make the final determination. Good luck in Paris !! 
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#1394327 - 03/12/10 11:39 AM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: RonaldSteinway]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2357
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[
Whoever has degree in certain field should be considered professional.
That's not really true. You can have a law degree, for example, but can't practice law unless you've taken and passed the bar exam. The law degree does not make you a professional lawyer.
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
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#1394352 - 03/12/10 12:30 PM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: Mark_C]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 933
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Mark,
I am still trying to figure out the significance of a "Master of Music - Piano" degree. At least it is a mystery for me. And the scale on this discussion is ranging from worthless to very significant, in the context of whether such a person should be accepted to enter an amateur competition or not.
One criteria to value anything can be its rarity (gold, diamonds etc.)
So, to give me a better understanding of such a diploma, generally how is it rated in the US?
regards,
Hakki
Edited by Hakki (03/12/10 02:56 PM)
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#1394378 - 03/12/10 01:11 PM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: Hakki]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 3957
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
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Mark,
I am still trying to figure out the significance of a "Master of Music - Piano" degree. At least it is a mystery for me. And the scale on this discussion is ranging from worthless to very significant, in the context of whether such a person should be accepted to enter an amateur competition or not.
One criteria to value anything can be it is rarity (gold, diamonds etc.)
So, to give me a better understanding of such a diploma, generally how is it rated in the US?
regards,
Hakki
Hakki - The "value" of any degree (whether it be a BM, MM or DMA) depends in part on the reputation of the institution that bestows it. Standards and quality of instruction vary from institution to institution. Someone can earn a degree at a given institution by doing "excellent" work or by simply doing "good" work. Thus - it is fair to say that all MM degree recipients are not created equal. Some successfully pursue a professional career as a teacher or performer - and others don't. Some continue to play piano throughout their lives because they enjoy it - and others move on to other things.
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#1394393 - 03/12/10 01:32 PM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: carey]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 15661
Loc: Victoria, BC
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Hakki :
To add to Carey's rational, sensible comments concerning degrees:
- By some, the degree itself is viewed as the ultimate determiner of a person's worth.
- By others, it is acknowledged that the worth of the individual is somewhat dependent on the quality and/or reputation of the institution which granted the degree
- By others, the degree does not hold much comparative value, given that a "poor" student who gets by and earns a degree from one institution can hold the same degree as an "exceptionally brilliant" student from another institution; thus, comparison of each person's worth on the basis of the degree is pointless.
- Still others feel that what the individual does after the degree determines his worth.
When it comes to higher learning, there seem to be no national standards in most countries whereby a degree from one institution can be reasonably compared with the same degree from all other institutions in that country.
With all these sometimes unquantifiable variables, the degree may or may not be a significant factor in a competition candidate's eligibility, but who is going to be able to judge?
Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
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#1394398 - 03/12/10 01:40 PM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: BruceD]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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....With all these sometimes unquantifiable variables, the degree may or may not be a significant factor in a competition candidate's eligibility, but who is going to be able to judge?.... Great summary, and great rhetorical question. IMO that says it all. IMO there's been too much emphasis here on "degree or no degree." The OP's original issue was about lying about one's credentials, but we quickly got away from that, I guess because that one is so easy (i.e. it's no good, period).
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1394401 - 03/12/10 01:41 PM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: jazzyprof]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1225
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[
Whoever has degree in certain field should be considered professional.
That's not really true. You can have a law degree, for example, but can't practice law unless you've taken and passed the bar exam. The law degree does not make you a professional lawyer. You are talking only in the US term.... Even nail people need license in the US.
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#1394403 - 03/12/10 01:43 PM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: BruceD]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1225
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Hakki :
To add to Carey's rational, sensible comments concerning degrees:
- By some, the degree itself is viewed as the ultimate determiner of a person's worth.
- By others, it is acknowledged that the worth of the individual is somewhat dependent on the quality and/or reputation of the institution which granted the degree
- By others, the degree does not hold much comparative value, given that a "poor" student who gets by and earns a degree from one institution can hold the same degree as an "exceptionally brilliant" student from another institution; thus, comparison of each person's worth on the basis of the degree is pointless.
- Still others feel that what the individual does after the degree determines his worth.
When it comes to higher learning, there seem to be no national standards in most countries whereby a degree from one institution can be reasonably compared with the same degree from all other institutions in that country.
With all these sometimes unquantifiable variables, the degree may or may not be a significant factor in a competition candidate's eligibility, but who is going to be able to judge?
Regards, Hhmmmm so different school means something.....so it makes sense to not allow graduates from certain top school...
Edited by RonaldSteinway (03/12/10 01:55 PM)
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#1394414 - 03/12/10 01:51 PM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: RonaldSteinway]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 15661
Loc: Victoria, BC
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Hhmmmm so different school means something.....so it makes sense to not allow certain graduates from top school...
I did not say nor imply that; please read more carefully. For some people the institution granting the degree may have significance, but since there is no way to fairly compare one against the other, comparisons are meaningless.
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
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#1394423 - 03/12/10 01:59 PM
Re: People mis-representing themselves in Competitions!
[Re: RonaldSteinway]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2830
Loc: Europe
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[
Whoever has degree in certain field should be considered professional.
That's not really true. You can have a law degree, for example, but can't practice law unless you've taken and passed the bar exam. The law degree does not make you a professional lawyer. You are talking only in the US term.... Even nail people need license in the US. Just for your information the same applies in Greece! So there you go, European countries also have restrains and do not allow people to practice their studies (after taking a degree) without further exams, or registrations of some sort. I think that a (university/conservatory) degree holds a couple of different meanings for me (ok, maybe more): 1. The holder has gone through a specific process, which includes exams, studying, etc. These processes are usually unbiased. 2. The holder has had the determination to go through the above. This does mean something, but is also proven by the degree. 3. A degree in an institution of some sort, also means that the holder will have had to mingle, to socialize with other people, thus opening their mind further. At least I'd like to think the above do stand more or less...
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Actually, my grandfather kind of did that after he retired from practice. He gave free consultations to elderly people with minor ailments who couldn't afford to go to a "real" doctor.
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