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#1394528 - 03/12/10 05:13 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2335
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: dewster
Just curious:

What do people think of the DPBSD MP3 files? Do you download and listen to them? Do they help you? MediaFire keeps track of how many times a particular file is downloaded, and there seems to be a certain amount of activity there.

How about the analysis pictures? Do you find them useful?


Yeah I like the .mp3 files too, to do a subjective compare.

I also like the pictures, but don't really know what they mean, so some of your recent markups of the pictures has been interesting.

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#1394539 - 03/12/10 05:33 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: 7even]
jmmec Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 86
Loc: New Mexico (yes, USA!)
I've downloaded a number of items from mediafire, and have especially listened to the samples from different DPs now that I have a decent pair of headphones.

I've found the "readme" file, and the pictures posted here (with all the "squiggly lines" + comments + cursor locations), to be most instructive.

I hope that this will positively impact future DP R&D so that dewster, one day in the year 2020 (if not 2019), will finally upgrade to a new DP. But with coming inflation, and the collapse of the US economy, things look bleak. smile
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#1394553 - 03/12/10 05:49 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: dewster
Just curious:

What do people think of the DPBSD MP3 files? Do you download and listen to them? Do they help you? MediaFire keeps track of how many times a particular file is downloaded, and there seems to be a certain amount of activity there.

How about the analysis pictures? Do you find them useful?


I love them! I don't need the pictures, but for a simple reason: I also use audacity to check for several issues on the file, so I see the same pictures "live" on my computer within audacity! So I can better zoom into some of the examples and see what exactly is going on there, especially in the damper resonance part. I now understand exactly how you do analyse those files, and can easily reproduce it or even analyse new files by myself. It's really not rocket science if you know a little bit about theory of sound.

I would suggest to even more expand the midi file to test for even more real acoustic behavior and if the DPs reproduce them correctly. I have some additional tests in mind that I also perform on my own DP and I'm therefore very curious if other pianos do perform as well as CA63 in these tests or maybe even better.

--> String resonance: Press a key silently and see what happens with string resonance, what keys are producing ringing sounds on the silent undampered key etc., so pressing the appropriate keys that should produce harmonics.

--> High notes and string resonance: Check the very high notes which are not dampered at all if they also produce string resonance when depressed. This should not be the case.

--> String resonance and damper resonance: If you press a key "silently" with damper down and then press other keys that should resonate with this silent key and then set damper up, check if the key does still resonate.

It would also be very nice if the test would not only cover those technical things, there is no way I can judge on the sound quality that way. At the beginning of the test there should be a short real playing sample (~1min) which covers a subset of real live situations: Playing pp to ff, with damper up and damper down, some chords, some arpeggios from low to high, some staccato, some legato, that's it pretty much.


Edited by kawaian (03/12/10 05:53 PM)
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#1394612 - 03/12/10 07:42 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: kawaian
I also use audacity to check for several issues on the file, so I see the same pictures "live" on my computer within audacity! So I can better zoom into some of the examples and see what exactly is going on there, especially in the damper resonance part. I now understand exactly how you do analyse those files, and can easily reproduce it or even analyse new files by myself. It's really not rocket science if you know a little bit about theory of sound.

I agree, it's basically pattern recognition, a bit of sound theory, and some knowledge of how DPs and real pianos work. And it's really not that complicated.

I'm glad someone else is doing the analysis too, and with a different software tool. Keep me honest kawaian!

Originally Posted By: kawaian
--> String resonance: Press a key silently and see what happens with string resonance, what keys are producing ringing sounds on the silent undampered key etc., so pressing the appropriate keys that should produce harmonics.

--> High notes and string resonance: Check the very high notes which are not dampered at all if they also produce string resonance when depressed. This should not be the case.

Those seems like they might be so subtle it would be hard to hear them. I do appreciate the suggestion though.

Originally Posted By: kawaian
--> String resonance and damper resonance: If you press a key "silently" with damper down and then press other keys that should resonate with this silent key and then set damper up, check if the key does still resonate.

Test #2 in DPBSD v1.5 is something like that:
2. C2 & C3 & C4 & C6 & C7 @ vel=1 (& G6 @ vel=15); C5 @ vel=127; keys up (& G6 @ vel=15)

Another test might be to find out where the transition between the dampered and undampered notes is.

Originally Posted By: kawaian
It would also be very nice if the test would not only cover those technical things, there is no way I can judge on the sound quality that way. At the beginning of the test there should be a short real playing sample (~1min) which covers a subset of real live situations: Playing pp to ff, with damper up and damper down, some chords, some arpeggios from low to high, some staccato, some legato, that's it pretty much.

Right, I think everyone (myself included) would really like to hear what it sounds like doing something more musical. I've looked around for something like that but haven't found anything yet. Do you have any suggestions?
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#1394618 - 03/12/10 07:53 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Did I say audacity? I mean Audition, sorry, audacity does not have those analysis capabilities. So we actually use the same software for analysis, but still it's quite obvious and reproducable how this works.
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#1394621 - 03/12/10 07:56 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: kawaian
Did I say audacity? I mean Audition, sorry, audacity does not have those analysis capabilities. So we actually use the same software for analysis, but still it's quite obvious and reproducable how this works.

Oh noes, we're both using the same "unproven" software!! smile
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#1394626 - 03/12/10 08:08 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
Originally Posted By: dewster
Just curious:

What do people think of the DPBSD MP3 files? Do you download and listen to them? Do they help you? MediaFire keeps track of how many times a particular file is downloaded, and there seems to be a certain amount of activity there.

How about the analysis pictures? Do you find them useful?


I find the analysis pictures helpful, and the audio file is only helpful to me if it's available in the context of a few test songs, and not just walking the notes up and down the range.

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#1394782 - 03/13/10 04:24 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: kawaian
Did I say audacity? I mean Audition, sorry, audacity does not have those analysis capabilities. So we actually use the same software for analysis, but still it's quite obvious and reproducable how this works.

Oh noes, we're both using the same "unproven" software!! smile


Yeah, I know, Adobe is like a little rat-shop... wink
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#1394940 - 03/13/10 11:32 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: kawaian
Yeah, I know, Adobe is like a little rat-shop... wink

A rag-tag bunch of pikers probably running things out of some garage somewhere. Their 2009 fiscal revenue was only $2.946 billion USD - no one should take them or their software seriously. It's not like anyone has even heard of them, much less use their products.
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#1394955 - 03/13/10 12:02 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
I would really love to have DPBSD MP3s of:

- Korg SP-250
- Yamaha P-85

Could anyone perhaps furnish them?
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#1395589 - 03/14/10 02:59 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Yamaha CLP-990 Review

Nan kindly provided us with a DPBSD MIDI file of the Yamaha CLP-990. This is a 2002 vintage DP with a five layer velocity sample and no stretching, which makes it a rather advanced and interesting specimen for its time.

In their literature Yamaha even says how much memory they allocate to the piano voice, 80.4MB, something they tend shy away from these days. Doing the math, this works out to about 1 second of attack + loop sample time on average for each note layer. The average attack + loop times I measured are on the order of 1.7 seconds, so perhaps they aren't using 16 bit samples, or are employing additional compression such as delta encoding or similar.

As you might expect, the samples and loops are too short not to hear obvious artifacting, though the decay is fairly long. The velocity layers aren't blended, but the steps aren't too objectionable. It responds to partial pedalling, but the effect is fairly subtle. There are no extra sounds like key up or pedal up/down, though it passes both sympathetic resonance tests, as well as the pedal down silent replay test.


Spectral phase view of note C3, cursor at end of attack sample | beginning of loop sample.


Spectral frequency view of velocity layer test, all four layer switches are visible here.


Spectral phase view of stretch test, all notes appear and sound separately sampled. Mid keys shown here, lows and highs are similar.

More analysis pictures, the MP3 file, and the text review file are available at the share point.

------------------
- Yamaha CLP-990 -
------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.5_yamaha_clp-990.mp3
- Floppy drive (MIDI file), headphone output.
- Recorded by "nan".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test.
- Passes the key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Passes the pedal down silent replay test.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
- Fairly long decays on the order of 3/4 Pianoteq or longer.
- This is an unblended 5 velocity layer sample set.
- No visible or audible stretching, all notes sampled.
- Large dynamic range (~58dB, vel=1:127).
CONS:
- No obvious pedal up/down samples.
- No obvious key up samples.
- Obviously looped, both visually and audibly.
- Sample & loop lengths are rather short.
- Sample lengths are (C2:C9): 2.2,1.9,1.6,1.6,1.5,0.9,0.8,? seconds.
- Loop lengths are (C2:C9): 0.83,0.6,0.56,0.5,0.49,0.4,0.4,? seconds.
- Visible & audible layer switch @ vel=24,36,44,52
OTHER:
- Something like a small amount of reverb in the test file.
- Notes played @ vel=1 produce no sound.
- MP3 levels: peak @ -12dB, noise floor @ -76dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-03-14
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#1396841 - 03/16/10 10:23 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Korg SV1 Triple Voice Review

jve has kindly supplied us with (count 'em) three DPBSD MP3s of the new Korg SV1 - thanks jve!

The voices are:
"Grand Piano 1" - a Japanese grand
"Grand Piano 2" - a German grand
"Electric Grand" - a CP80

I fully reviewed all three, and I made a bunch of pix of the Grand Piano 1, but only a few of the other two. Very long attack and loop samples for a DP that sound pretty good - it's really too bad about the excessive stretching and some abrupt and very audible velocity switches.

I've never played a CP80, but jve owns a CP70 and says the SV1 sounds as though it goes into the final decay stage too early, resulting in a too percussive sound. I thought the initial decay of the grand piano patches sounded a bit steep too, with a swelling rebound later. From the spectral views the CP80 voice could likely be a mono sample enhanced with a stereo simulator.

The key and pedal noises are presented here at the default level and sound to me a bit too loud, though the levels of these sounds are adjustable.

As usual, more analysis pix, the MP3s, and all reviews can be found at the share point.

Grand Piano 1

Spectral pan view of the note C4. Cursor at the sample attack | loop boundary. Sample lengths are 3.8 | 3.0 for attack | loop which is better than usual for a DP.


Spectral phase view of the entire looping test compressed 20:1. Attack and loop samples are clearly visible here for the lower notes (redish sections are the noise floor).


Spectral phase view of the stretch test mid notes. Except for the very highest notes the lower and higher sections are similar. Stretching is audible in the lows and mids.


Spectral frequency view of the entire layer test. The audible and abrupt velocity switch at vel=88 is very clear here.

--------------------------
- Korg SV1 Grand Piano 1 -
--------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.5_korg_sv1_grand_piano_1.mp3
- Yamaha N12 digital mixer, Adobe Audition.
- Recorded by "jve".
PROS:
- Pedal down sound is a nicely done "loom of strings".
- Pedal up sound is "stringy clunk".
- Key up "clunk" sound.
- Passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
- No strange pedal sounds during partial pedaling.
- Nice long decays on the order of Pianoteq.
- Decent dynamic range (~34dB, vel=1:127).
- This is an unblended 4 velocity layer sample set.
CONS:
- Fails the key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Fails the pedal down silent replay test @ pedal up.
- Looped, though very well done with long attack and loop samples.
- Attack sample lengths are (C2:C9): 5.0,3.8,3.8,3.4,3.0,2.5,?,? seconds.
- Loop sample lengths are (C2:C9): 3.8,3.5,3.0,3.0,2.4,1.9,?,? seconds.
- Obviously stretched, low and mid group transistions farily audible.
- Stretch distances: 3,4,4,3,3,2,3(x16),2,1(x19) = 42 groups.
- Visible and audible velocity layer switch @ vel= 44,88,116
- Layer switch @ vel=88 is fairly abrupt.
OTHER:
- Notes played @ vel=1 produce no sound.
- MP3 levels: peak @ -1dB, noise floor @ -75dB.
- From the SV1 manual: "This is a very accurate sampling of a Japanese grand piano, suitable for pop and jazz."
- Date reviewed: 2010-03-15


Grand Piano 2

Spectral frequency view of the entire layer test. All three velocity switches are visible here, including the fairly abrupt sounding switch at vel=116.

--------------------------
- Korg SV1 Grand Piano 2 -
--------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.5_korg_sv1_grand_piano_2.mp3
- Yamaha N12 digital mixer, Adobe Audition.
- Recorded by "jve".
PROS:
- Pedal down sound is a nicely done "loom of strings".
- String damp sound is realistically "buzzy".
- Key up "clunk" sound.
- Passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
- No strange pedal sounds during partial pedaling.
- Nice long decays on the order of Pianoteq.
- Decent dynamic range (~34dB, vel=1:127).
- This is an unblended 4 velocity layer sample set.
CONS:
- Fails the key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Fails the pedal down silent replay test @ pedal up.
- Looped, though very well done with long attack and loop samples.
- Attack sample lengths are (C2:C9): 6.9(?),3.8,4.3,?,?,?,?,? seconds.
- Loop sample lengths are (C2:C9): 3.6,3.1,2.6,?,?,?,?,? seconds.
- Obviously stretched, low and mid group transistions farily audible.
- Stretch distances: 5,4,3,3,3,3,2,2,3(x13),1(x24) = 45 groups.
- Visible and audible velocity layer switch @ vel=44,88,116
- Layer switch @ vel=116 is fairly abrupt.
OTHER:
- Notes played @ vel=1 produce no sound.
- MP3 levels: peak @ -1dB, noise floor @ -80dB.
- From the SV1 manual: "This is a very accurate sampling of a famous German grand piano, perfect for jazz and classical music.
- Date reviewed: 2010-03-15

Electric Piano

Spectral pan view of the entire layer test. The single velocity switch is obvious here.


Spectral frequency view of the entire layer test. The two layers are nicely blended, and the switch isn't visible here.

---------------------------
- Korg SV1 Electric Grand -
---------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.5_korg_sv1_electric_grand.mp3
- Yamaha N12 digital mixer, Adobe Audition.
- Recorded by "jve".
PROS:
- Pedal down sound is a nicely done "loom of strings".
- Pedal up sound is a "thump".
- Key up "clunk" sound.
- Passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
- No strange pedal sounds during partial pedaling.
- Decent dynamic range (~28dB, vel=1:127).
- I believe this is a blended 2 velocity layer sample set.
CONS:
- Fails the key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Fails the pedal down silent replay test @ pedal up.
- Rather short decays on the order of ~1/2 Pianoteq.
- Appears to be a mono sample enhanced with stereo simulator?
- Most likely looped, though very well done with long attack and loop samples.
- Obviously stretched, most group transistions farily audible, even highest ones.
- Stretch distances: 8,8,3,3,3,4,4,3,4(x6),2,6,4,5,11 = 19 groups (waveform display).
- Visible and audible velocity layer switch @ vel=54
OTHER:
- Notes played @ vel=1 produce no sound.
- MP3 levels: peak @ -2dB, noise floor @ -76dB.
- From the SV1 manual: "Released in the mid-’70s, this was the very first portable piano really close to the real thing."
- Date reviewed: 2010-03-15
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1396950 - 03/16/10 01:15 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: kawaian

--> High notes and string resonance: Check the very high notes which are not dampered at all if they also produce string resonance when depressed. This should not be the case.


I beg to differ:
These should *always* resonate, wether the key or pedal is depressed or not.
And the resonance sound should continue when all keys and the pedal are released.

I believe this is a typical component of real piano sound, it adds a lot of realism to the sound, because there wont be total silence, when the last key is released and it would sound more lively.

Peter



Peter
_________________________
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#1397237 - 03/16/10 07:38 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
DPBSD MIDI File v1.6 Released

I just updated the DPBSD MIDI file to version 1.6. An updated readme file reflects the changes as well.

This adds some finesse to the key down sympathetic resonance test by raising the sympathetic keys one by one.

It also adds a brief pedal partial damping test, which our P-120 passes.

====================
= Revision History =
====================
v1.6 - 2010-03-16:
- Added brief pedal partial damping test.
- Added progressive C7, C6, C4, C3, C2 key lift to key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Reversed the order of the pedal down sympathetic resonance test stages (to put loudest first).
- Added a short G6 to signal the end of each test.
- Added C2 @ vel=100 to peak recording level (test 0).




Edited by dewster (03/16/10 11:26 PM)
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#1397246 - 03/16/10 07:44 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: hpeterh]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9047
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
dewster, thank you for posting those interesting findings from the SV1 test.

I wonder why the acoustic piano sounds are not blended, while the electric piano apparently is.

Also, would you like to hazard a guess as to why vel=1 produces no sound?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1397388 - 03/16/10 11:20 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
I wonder why the acoustic piano sounds are not blended, while the electric piano apparently is.

My theory is a CP80 is a much simpler instrument, sound-wise, than a grand piano (guitar-like electric pickup) so blending two velocity layers with a filter is a lot easier. I believe the sample is mono, which makes the blending even easier. It must require some kind of spectral morphing when one blends the stereo layers of a real piano sample.

Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
Also, would you like to hazard a guess as to why vel=1 produces no sound?

Seeing as how note-on vel=0 has been historically co-opted for note-off, if I were building a DP, I'd probably design the keyboard controller to generate note-on vel=1 for playing notes silently. That would differentiate the two scenarios, and allow the sound generator to behave more realistically like an acoustic piano given various scenarios.

It's really too bad MIDI note-off isn't used because the "velocity" could be used as an indication of damping timing / strength, further adding to realism.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1397410 - 03/16/10 11:49 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9047
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
dewster, thank you for the explanation.

So to clarify, is it particularly unusual for the SV-1 to not produce any sound at v=1, or is this standard for most/all DPs?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1397604 - 03/17/10 09:23 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
So to clarify, is it particularly unusual for the SV-1 to not produce any sound at v=1, or is this standard for most/all DPs?

I can only detect this in DPBSD v1.5 and higher (when the key down sympathetic resonance test was implemented) and since its introduction I've reviewed 5 DPs. Kind of hard to get a good statistical feel for how usual / unusual this is with that small number, but here are the lists so far:

Silent MIDI note-on @ vel=1:
- Korg SV1 (Grand Piano 1 & 2, Electric Grand)
- Yamaha S90 XS Natural Grand S6
- Yamaha CLP-990

Play faint note with MIDI note-on @ vel=1:
- Galaxy Vintage D
- Yamaha AvantGrand N3
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#1397702 - 03/17/10 11:18 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9047
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
How about pianoteq?

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1397725 - 03/17/10 11:54 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
How about pianoteq?

The v3.5.3 demo plays faint notes with vel=1.
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#1397857 - 03/17/10 02:14 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
sullivang Offline
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Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2203
Loc: Sydney, Australia
RE: Pianoteq, one can clip the velocity response at any desired threshold. To match it to my controller, I flat-line the response at 0 until a velocity of 8. (my Kawai MP9000 produces a minimum velocity of 7, so I want all velocities <= 7 to produce no sound, which incidentally, matches it's own response)

Note also that one can define a completely arbitrary velocity response in Pianoteq - any curve can be drawn.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (03/17/10 02:17 PM)

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#1397873 - 03/17/10 02:30 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: sullivang]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Yes, this is key.
I would expect more digital pianos to provide VPiano style functionality of making these kind of personal adjustments.

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#1398045 - 03/17/10 06:16 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: theJourney]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Kawai CA63 Re-Review

Due to all the recent interest in the Kawai CA63 I though I would take this opportunity to revisit the DPBSD MP3 kindly provided by kawaian to hone the existing review - in particular to quantify the loop lengths - plus capture some pictures of the analysis.

As I said before, this DP has nice things going for it. I can't see much in the way of stretching, and can't hear it at all as it only appears to exist on a few of the upper notes. Velocity layer blending is very well done, with only one step rather audible.

Attack sample lengths are about average, but the loop samples could benefit from some added length. I can hear C4 and C5 looping, but overall looping is fairly well done for such short loop samples - rather like the Yamaha CP1, which also has standard attack sample lengths and short loop lengths, but manages to sound pretty good (for something looped).

The notes decay a bit fast, though the quantization noise in the sample that keeps me from hearing everything going on near the noise floor.

If anyone can provide a DPBSD MP3 with a better levels, and particularly one that captures the key and pedal noises and sympathetic resonance, I'd be highly appreciative.

More pictures of this analysis, the MP3, and all reviews are at the share point.



Spectral phase view of the entire looping test, where the attack and loop sections of the lower note samples are clearly evident.


Spectral pan view of the note C2. Attack sample is 3.0 seconds, loop sample is 1.3 seconds, cursor located at the transition between attack and loop.


Spectral phase view of the note C4. Attack sample is 1.6 seconds, loop sample is 0.83 seconds, cursor located at the transition between attack and loop.


Spectral frequency view of the entire velocity layer test. The velocity switch three blocks in from the right is clearly visible and audible, but the rest of the range is nicely blended.


Spectral pan view of the mid section of the stretching test. Notes appear to be individually sampled. Low and high sections are similar, with the exception following.


Spectral pan view of the stretching test zoomed up. The group of four notes in the center and the group of two notes adjacent on left appear stretched to me, but it isn't audible. These are the notes A7 thru D8.


--------------
- Kawai CA63 -
--------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_kawai_ca63.mp3
- Recorded by "kawaian".
PROS:
- Large dynamic range (~51dB, vel=1:127).
- No audible sample stretching.
- This is a very smoothly blended multi-velocity layer sample set.
- There are two semi-visible velocity switches @ vel=46,124.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
CONS:
- Looped, though not too badly done, would benefit from longer loop samples.
- Looping somewhat audible, particularly C4 & C5.
- Attack sample lengths are (C2:C9) 3.0,3.0,2.1,1.6,1.4,1.5,0.97,? seconds.
- Loop sample lengths are (C2:C9) 1.4,1.3,0.68,0.83,0.64,0.74,0.63,? seconds.
- Note decay somewhat short (~2/3 Pianoteq).
- One velocity layer switch is fairly audible (timbre change) @ vel=124.
- Stretch distances: 1(x72),2,4,1(x10) = 84 groups.
- No obvious pedal up/down or key up samples.
- No obvious sympathetic resonance.
OTHER:
- MP3 levels fair: peak @ -12dB, noise floor @ -80dB, significant noise @ floor.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-16; updated 2010-03-17


[EDITS]
2010-12-15:
- Fixed note numbers in picture captions: C3=>C2, C5=>C4 (also fixed numbering in zip file).


Edited by dewster (12/15/10 11:13 AM)
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#1398083 - 03/17/10 07:39 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
I also updated the review for the Yamaha P-155 and posted a bunch of analysis pix at the share point.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1398175 - 03/17/10 10:08 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2203
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Just btw, on my Kawai MP9000, I notice that on the Rhodes preset at least, the note evolves in discrete steps - the initial portion including the attack, a looped sustain (with an amplitude envelope), and then a final decay. I.e - the looped portion does not persist until the very and. The decay portion begins BEFORE the note is released - I am not referring to the release. I haven't determined whether this method us used for other presets yet.

Greg.

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#1398361 - 03/18/10 05:58 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: sullivang]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Greg,

I had a MP9000 a few years back. Great keyboard but I found the piano voice a bit lifeless. As I recall Kawai had nothing to do with the EP patches...they bought them from Wizoo or some company with a similar kind of name.

Cheers,

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1398436 - 03/18/10 09:22 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James

So to clarify, is it particularly unusual for the SV-1 to not produce any sound at v=1, or is this standard for most/all DPs?


Hi James,

I had a 11-year-old Yamaha CVP96 and this did it the same way.
This is however only the case for the piano voices as it should be.

Currently I have a Kawai CP136 and it does something similar for some e-piano or harpsichord voices, but -oddly- does not do it for the piano voices.

I also have the GalaxyII piano library and if the option "silent key" is chosen, it does it the same way.
It also has a free form velocity curve, and if the option "Silent key" is chosen, any threshhold can be adjusted, using a flat curve start.
The same should be the case for Galaxy Vintage D.

Also the piano library "Pianissimo" supresses all velocities below 5.
So far I know, Pianoteq and Truepianos behave similar.

Best,

Peter


Edited by hpeterh (03/18/10 10:27 AM)
_________________________
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#1398699 - 03/18/10 03:14 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2203
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Steve,
RE: the MP9000, I think the acoustic sounds are actually not too bad (it's a very rich tone), although it is no match to the sounds I have on my computer. That's interesting about the electric pianos - I didn't know that. They're pretty good too, but let down by poor velocity mapping to the keyboard, IMHO. The Wurly completely falls to pieces in the bass registers - it seems to me that Kawai's harmonic imaging isn't (or wasn't, back then) good enough to reproduce the very rich timbre of the Wurly in the bass notes. It's pretty good elsewhere though.

Greg.

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#1399417 - 03/19/10 05:04 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: sullivang]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Yamaha P-155 Re-review

I see a lot of download activity for the P-155 DPBSD MP3, so I thought I'd take this opportunity to briefly re-review it and add a few pix. The text review was updated a few days ago too. Thanks again to ChrisA for the DPBSD MP3!

The attack and loop samples are rather short which makes the looping rather audible, and there is a fair amount of audible stretching going on over the entire range. I think I would have preferred they sacrifice a velocity layer in exchange for longer samples and less stretching. On the plus side the decay times are fairly long, and the velocity layers are nicely blended, with no visual or audible steps.

More pix, reviews, and MP3s at the share point.


Spectral phase view of the the entire looping test. Attack and loop samples of the lower notes clearly visible here.


Spectral pan view of the the note C4. The cursor is located at the transition between the 1.87 second attack sample and the 0.54 loop sample.


Spectral pan view of the the note C5. The cursor is located at the transition between the 1.7 second attack sample and the 0.59 loop sample.


Spectral pan view of the the note C6. The cursor is located at the transition between the 1.6 second attack sample and the 0.42 loop sample.


Spectral pan view of the the upper notes in the stretch test. Stretching is obvious, both visually and audibly, even in the higher registers.


Spectral frequency view of the the entire velocity layer test. All layers are smoothly blended, no steps apparent either visually or audibly.


----------------
- Yamaha P-155 -
----------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_yamaha_p155.mp3
- Line out, line in to Mac, Garage Band.
- Recorded by "ChrisA".
PROS:
- A very smoothly blended 4 layer (reportedly) sample set with no visible or audible layer switching.
- Huge dynamic range (~62dB, vel=1:127).
- Sympathetic resonance.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
CONS:
- Obviously looped, could benefit from longer attack and loop samples.
- Attack sample lengths are: 2.4,1.9,1.87,1.7,1.6,1.2,0.8,? seconds.
- Loop sample lengths are: 0.7,0.78,0.54,0.59,0.42,?,?,? seconds.
- Visibly and audibly stretched over entire range.
- Stretch distances: 3,3,4(x3),2,4,3(x3),2,3(x3),2(x4),3,1,3,3,4,2,2,3,5,10 = 28 groups.
- No key-up or pedal samples or sound effects.
- Sympathetic resonance fairly fake sounding - echoy and reverby, particularly during parital pedaling.
OTHER:
- MP3 levels: peak @ -0.1dB, noise floor @ -69dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-08; updated: 2010-03-17
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1399433 - 03/19/10 05:29 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
FYI, I'll be away from the computer for a week or so, back to reviewing when I get back.
_________________________
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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